[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Those two reasons are exactly why I consider it a necessity. The OP mentioned having $5k to spend. If my experience is to be regarded, I think he'll find that $5k is doable, but once you start weighing the pros and cons of additional items you find that there are other parts that will increase the reliability and safety of running an engine at twice it's rated stock output.

don't care about 1 person. I speak in generalities. some have 5k some have 500. some have $5.

Even if you have a great tuner, I still think having the ability to see and track your engine parameters is paramount to the longevity of the engine.

just so we are on the same page. If I buy a stock sr20 and I wanted to push it to 350rwhp, I wouldn't bother with a data-logit. Stick a $350 used PFC and go, done deal. Thats been my point from the beginning- if the application is MAF sensor based, sub 500rwhp, you don't need to see the logs to tune the engine unless you think there is something wrong with it, and even then the commander has output data you can refer to. Also, Once an engine is tuned, you aren't going to carry around the laptop everytime you drive the car, most will not be doing that. KISS means just drive, bare minimum, simple setup, stuff a $100 fuel pump in the tank and watch your $150 wideband if you are worried etc.. My posts are directed to those wanting to save $$$, by giving up features. I am not pushing anything, Of course I prefer the most sophistocated electronics and tuning ecu available, just like I favor direct injection and rear mount oil-less cartridges. I am stating simple ideas for $$ saving factors which happen to follow KISS.

Regardless, I will be tracking my engine parameters and looking for areas in which improvements are possible, or areas where the engine is pushing safety thresholds in an attempt to safeguard against premature engine failure and performance deficiencies. I am not about to rely on a tune completed in a few hours or more without being able to steer the boat myself if needed. I will not let my tuner lock the tune, and I'll sign any paper stating he is not liable if I make changes and fuck things up.

years of tuning and you will come to understand the difference between race cars, competition, and street/daily drivers. A daily driver doesn't "push" any envelopes, because tomorrows pump fuel, or hills, or climate, can screw you over. A "factory" tune is what you want. Not actually factory, I used quotes because I mean only that you want to be able to drive the car like a factory car in those situations ( get in, turn the key and go, no worries regardless of what the gas is like today ). If you start pushing timing and leaning out the engine (what else can you really do anyways?) What do you think will eventually happen?

As I stated, the Hand Commander could be used, but it is much less than ideal. Any competent tuner, such as yourself, would much prefer to have the capabilities of the DL in the mix, MAF or otherwise. If you didn't, you would not have a DL at your disposal.

I agree, but I am also perfectly fine using the commander. I could take an ECU, program it completely with the vehicle off, for the most part, and have the car driving fine an hour later, done tuning. Still referring to sub 500rwhp daily driver maf engines, using a PFC. Thats the golden ticket for KISS. You can't do better than that, there is no better option for saving $$ and having a reliable daily driver in those situations.

I am not about to get into the "you should put a JZ in it", or "just go LS" argument. The fact is, some of us prefer to keep a Nissan a Nissan.

your personal taste. Pay extra for it, sometimes.

I cost out a 1JZ with R154 tranny, bolt-on and ancillaries, and determined that the RB25 swap would run me almost identical amounts of hard earned cash.

1JZ I avoid. Not worth the effort, imo, unless: you get a couple of them dirt cheap somehow.

The 2JZ with R154 was more expensive, because 2JZ yo. A 2JZ would run about what an RB26 with RB25 tranny would and I personally would choose an RB26 over a 2JZ just to keep it in the Nissan family. An LS swap just feels dirty to me, like 2 dollar hooker dirty. She'll do the job and performance may be admirable, but you still don't wanna look yourself in the mirror afterwards...

more personal taste. Its fine, I love all engines, I weight their pros and cons as you will see and its as simple as that. For me, personal taste = max power, max reliability, for minimum $$. Don't care what you call the engine, no one's going to see it anyways under my hood, or hear it for that matter.

Anything non RB specific runs the same amount as other forced induction motors, and various other RB specific items can be cross referenced to other domestic Nissan motors to keep costs down. RB items that cannot be cross referenced aren't nearly as expensive now as they were 10 years ago given the increased popularity of the swaps in the states.

When I was "in the business" RB26 was $6500~ and 2jz-gte we get for $1200-$1800 with auto trans. I would never both with a manual transmission behind a 2jz-gte- too much $$ is the main reason. I prefer: cheap and reliable. Automatics can go 150k to 250k without clutch swaps, and it will be faster on both the street and track. My kind of daily driver.

30-50% less power output given the investment?!!! Really? I call bullshit on that one... you're pulling numbers out of your ass.

It is simple math, displacement vs displacement will show that what I say is true. RB25 engine will run you $2500~ and brings 2.5L to the table. LSx engine will run you $1000~ and brings over double that. So yeah, 50% more power is available at the same boost pressure (or the same power with half the boost pressure, if you want). Either way, displacement always wins, unless the engine has some fatal flaw which puts a cap on it's output, and then you have to get into building engines and filling them and all sorts of crap. I Avoid that route for daily drivers. If the engine in question can't handle the power, I don't build it, I just use the right engine instead. It helps to be able to buy a couple of them, as spares. I would never run a factory block to some inane power level without a spare factory block sitting all cleaned up and ready to drop in on the side. This is where your true reliability comes from, swap an $1000 engine in a day after you drive it for 4-8 years at 550rwhp sounds good to me, on to the next one.

I for one would never let the availability of a used Power FC drive my selection of a motor. That seems like a backwards way of going about it. Besides that, I generally do not buy used electronics when their function is key in keeping an expensive project from being relegated to the recycling bin. Kind of why I would never buy a used power supply for a high end computer. If it fails or is buggy it can take the entire project down in the process. You obviously feel different, which is fine, but I wouldn't let $500 be the difference between $10k of super sweetness or $10k of scrap metal. You do not know the condition of the components when buying second hand. It could have been dropped several times, or subjected to extreme static shock, or any number of other not so good situations.

I wouldn't use a cheap piece of $#!T used ECU on a $10,000 engine. My advice has been over and over that this is a money saving goal, and keeping it simple, mixed together. If you drop more than $2k on an engine, in general, you are already on the "not so money saving" train. It depends on the application. For many people, 500rwhp is plenty in a 2800lb car. I can do that with a completely stock truck 5.3L V8 for half the cost of an RB25 or 2JZ, using the factory computer (HPtuner) which contains as many or more of the same/similar options that any fancy stand-alone has.