Quote:
Originally Posted by hsitko
Pick an intercooler for your boost/power level not because someone said they melted a piston with a stock mount because they were likely not monitoring intake air temps, possibly running the intercooler unducted, and went lean.
|
Simple facts here.
1) You dont need to go overkill on the intercooler.
2) If you melted an engine because of an intercooler, you did not research your modifications enough. And likely dont understand just how hard you are pushing your engine. If you are unsure you should have monitored your air temps as that would have been a direct indication of the intercoolers efficency at your chosen boost level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fliprayzin240sx
WHAT THE FUCK ARE BABBLING ABOUT? Side mounts suck for the simple fact that any psi beyond stock boost on a stock T-25, they are stop being efficient at cooling down your charged air. Stock S15 sidemount (thicker than S13 or S14s) are efficient up to 10 psi. There was an article done a couple years back where somebody measured the air temp before and after the stock sidemount and it didnt change much.
Thats how people blow their fucking engines, hotter, compressed air into the engine, with no fuel tuning = hello detonationville.
|
Its obvious by your hostile reaction that you misunderstood what i was trying to say. Which is, the stock mount intercooler is fine for certain applications. If you are running the stock (small) turbo a big front mount has some negative consequences at stock boost levels. Spool time increases and the intercooler its self is subject to more abuse. For the amount of money you would spend on a front mount you could purchase something of much greater value for cooling intake charge and lowering ccp (combustion chamber pressure). Alcohol injection. Many companies produce systems that are very easy to spec out, install and use. If you use water you will dramatically lower ccp and have the benefit of steam cleaning engine parts. Water has a great latent heat effect which cools intake air charge very well. If you use alcolol you could actually ice over your intake manifold with the stock mount intercooler (yes thats right, ice over). You could actually run no intercooler if you wanted to. Personally i wouldnt just in case a component failed. But you could. With AEM, Devils Own, Cooling mist, FJO and several other companies making these kits with entry costs around $300 it is money much better spent. I come from the world of rotaries. My main interest is my 1993 fd rx7.
I'm very familiar with ccp. A stock rotary 13b-rew is 1.3L with combustion events happening 2x that of a 4 stroke engine so we consider it 2.6L.
Stock it produces 255 flywheel hp divided by 159 cubic inches equals 1.6 hp per cubic inch!
A stock s13 red or black top is 121 cubic inches or 2.0L. In stock trim it produces 202 flywheel hp. (I picked the s13 power number as its what most people run.) Which comes to 1.6 hp per cubic inch! The same as the 13b-rew. That is a lot stock! Especially since the 13b-rew is .6L bigger for this comparison.
the 2009 Corvette LS7 ZO6 motor is:
hand built by Chev.
has:
titanium valves and rods
6 bolt main bearing caps
dry sump lubrication system
and every bit of engineering Chev could throw at it.
and it makes 1.18 horsepower per cubic inch!
the 2009 Dodge Viper SRT10 makes 1.17 hp per cu inch.
both 2 valve motors. 4 valve motors make 27% more hp & torque...
more air makes more ponies.
the 2009 4 valve Lambo Murcielago ($440K) makes 1.59 hp per cu inch
o k let's add more air...
enter the 2009 Corvette ZR1
supercharged and approx 40 K more than the ZO6... 1.69 hp per cu inch.
how about a 4 valve twin turbo 2009 AMG Merc SL65 AMG?
1.81 hp per cu inch.
each of the above mega price/mega hp offerings could have been tuned up for more hp but the manufacturer made a decision as to where to say NO to more power with a consideration to engine reliability.
normally aspirated piston engines:
it looks like the balance point is around 1.18 hp per cubic inch.
forced induction:
around 1.75 hp per cu inch. (the 27% differntial between 2 valve and 4 valve is in-operative on force fed motors for obvious reasons.) Now remember what the sr20det is stock. 1.6 hp per cu inch. Pretty close.
My FD makes 400rwhp which is 460 crank hp. 460 divided by 159 cu inches (or 2.6 liters) is 2.89hp per cubic inch!!!!
For an sr20det to get to that 2.89 hp per cubic inch mark it only needs to get to 349 flywheel hp! That isnt a whole lot of total hp! But that is a ton of hp per cubic inch. That is seriously pushing it on just about any engine. We are talking serious drops in longevity and reliability as a result. That is a truly massive amount of hp per cubic inch with just over 300 hp to the wheels.
gasoline, any gasoline including racegas, auto-ignites at a mere 495 F. as we raise hp levels we are moving closer to auto ignition/knock/breaking.
alcohol, (methanol, ethanol and isopropyl) ignite at 858 degrees F! If you have an AI system like FJO's and a stand alone ecu, you can actually tune 20% of the fuel out of your maps and replace it with methanol. Which means more advanced ignition timing, more boost and more power!
Combustion Chamber Pressure.
torque is a direct product of CCP and when related to RPM determines HP.
CCP correlates directly to heat.
The best way to address the issue of high ccp and heat is with AI. There are many benefits and the systems arent overly expensive or difficult to set up. The benefit of the injectant you choose is based on what kind of latent heat effect you want. The highest latent heat effect comes from water. The only issue is that water is not a fuel. Here is a table of potential injectants and their latent heat effects taken from engineeringtoolbox
Engineering ToolBox
Product Latent Heat of Evaporation
(kJ/kg) (Btu/lb)
Acetone 518 223
Alcohol 896 385
Alcohol, ethyl (ethanol) 846 364
Alcohol, methyl (methanol) 1100 473
Alcohol, propyl 779 340
Benzene 390 168
Heptane 318 137
Hexane 365 157
Kerosene 251 108
Propane 428 184
Toluene 351 151
Water 2257 970
Pick what ever intercooler you want but remember that no matter what intercooler you pick you wont be lowering combustion chamber temperatures very much in comparison to AI. Of course we know that the primary deal w lower IATs is more oxygen molecules per volume. And when you are talking oxygen nothing beats alcohol, or methanol specifically.
meth is 49% oxygen by weight
ethanol is 34% oxygen by weight.
gasoline is zero% oxygen
And if you are into drifting, how much air do you think is going through the intercooler when your sideways? How much of a difference do you think that would make to AI? When you are pushing your ccp that high a cool air charge from an intercooler just starts to become insufficient.
AI is spreading through all of the high performance tuning communities like wild fire. Its probably time that it made a stronger presence in this one too.