better front suspension?

[timtiminy]

okay so i looked fullrace's s14 awd car and they did the double wishbone front suspension conversion. I'm not at all a suspension engineer/guru, but i have heard that this type of front suspension is somewhat better than what we have in our s chassis cars. What advantages does this suspension linkage provide over our independent strut-type front suspension? Question being would it be possible (not too difficult) to swap in the z32 double wishbone front suspension linkage into the 240sx? Has anyone done this before? Sure it would be something different, but i'm not sure it would even be worth the conversion, but perhaps it would lead to an even better handling car? I'm not into drifting so loosing steering angle wouldn't be that big of a deal if it meant i would get better grip/rigidity up front since our cars are known to be a little loose up front. I know that this would mean changing out spindles, shocks, swaybar and adding a few parts, but i know the lca on our cars is the same as the z32 minus the ball joint connecting to the spindle, and tension rods should also be interchangeable. doesnt seem like it would be al that difficult but i dont have the 2 cars side by side to see every detail.

[Flybert]

m3's use mcpherson struts. Go buy another car if you want double wishbone. End of thread.

[bryce with a y]

mcpherson nuff said

[DriftSpecial180]

I'm not sure about swapping Z32 suspension, but Bill (Dent Sport Garage) has built an S13 racecar and is doing very well around the circuit. His User name is DriftsTyre, shoot him a PM maybe he can give you some advice.

Also, pick up the new SCC. It has the DSG S13 on the cover. Beat the ASM S2000 by 2 seconds. Woot Woot for Bill

[timtiminy]

I know that the mcpherson struts are adequate. just wondering if our front suspension could be made any better.

[EchoOfSilence]

McGayson type suspension was a cutback, as it costs less than double-wishbone setups. Doesn't allow for much travel, camber changes with travel (which isn't exactly a bad thing sometimes), lateral movement, etc. I'd go double-wishbone at the first chance i could.
however, it does alright. could be better.

anyway, here's an excerpt:

Originally Posted by WikiPedia

The whole assembly is very simple and can be preassembled into a unit; also by eliminating the upper control arm, it allows for more width in the engine bay, which is useful for smaller cars, particularly with transverse oriented engines such as most front wheel drive vehicles have. For those reasons, it has become almost ubiquitous with low cost manufacturers.
In addition to its simplicity and low manufacturing cost, it has few real vices, but is not best-of-breed either with respect to either ride quality or car handling. Geometric analysis shows that it cannot allow vertical movement of the wheel without some degree of either camber angle change, sideways movement, or both. It is not generally considered to give as good handling as double wishbone suspensions, because it allows the engineers less freedom to choose camber change and roll center. The wheel tends to lean with the body, leading to understeer. Another drawback is that it tends to transmit noise and vibration from the road directly into the body shell, giving higher noise levels and a "harsh" feeling to the ride compared with systems such as double wishbones, requiring manufacturers to add extra noise reduction or cancellation and isolation mechanisms. Also, because of its greater size and robustness and greater degree of attachment to the vehicle structure, when the internal seals of the shock absorber portion wear out replacement is relatively expensive compared to replacing a simple shock absorber. However, despite the stated drawbacks the strut setup is still used on high performance cars such as the Ford Mustang, Porsche 911, all BMWs except the 2007 X5 [2] and several Mercedes-Benz models.

[timtiminy]

yeah the dsg 240rs is an awesome car it really shows tha capabilities of the 240sx. I am pretty sure he is still using the mcpherson setup.

[EchoOfSilence]

they are. with different spring rates w/ adjustable links and arms, roll center, camber and caster can be adjusted to 'fix' the 'shortcomings' of the setup. Double wishbone is said to have 'better road holding capabilities' though... but i can't come up with math to prove either one over the other. that's someone else's job

[reflexdb]

Well, take a look at any "race car" - that is, a car specifically built for the track. You'll find double wishbone on any current car. If you want to read a little more in depth about different suspension setups, check out "Tune to Win" by Carrol Smith. Great intro suspension / everything else book.

[TforTits]

S chassis is a shit box. why would you waste that much money and time on a shit box? because you're a fucking toolbox.

[!Zar!]

You people expect WAY too much out of these cars.

[pablo180]

Echo of Silence hit the nail right on the head. The Macpherson suspension design is more cost effective than the double wishbone design. Whether Nissan took this into consideration or not, I dont know.

Some of the down falls of the strut design are that the vehicle looses negative camber (goes into positive camber) in bump. Double wishbones gain negative camber when the suspension is in bump which is desireable in the turns. The strut suspension design also puts the strut itself in bending. As a result the strut has to be stronger, hence heavier to avoid bending. Heavier weights at the corners increase your YAW moment affecting maneuverability. Bending loads on a strut create FRICTION which is the "absolute enemy of suspension function".

This is not to say that the Macpherson strut design is bad, it can be made to perform well as many tuners have shown.

[kdashy]

Spending money to make your car handle better with the Macpherson setup will be better than the same amount of money used to swap to double wishbone.

[EchoOfSilence]

if you wanna be cost-effective, yeah

but that was Full-Race. those dudes are crazy. If someone documented it, I'm sure some people would do it.

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

i dunno. if you really want it, i'd imagine that r32 suspension would be the closest fit. but why? you drive a street 240sx.

[timtiminy]

yeah i read the wikipedia thing, i figure it may be pretty cheap to get all the z32 front suspension links one would need for the swap. only differece i can visually see is that the z32 is 2 bolts on the strut towers where 240's are 3...i may just end up playing with this for fun. if it works out i'll do a write up.

[Wiisass]

Struts have a lot of design constraints. Just because of the way they are packaged. They aren't ideal for awesome handling, but they can be dealt with. As someone said above, the camber curves aren't great. But this is more so on a lowered car. Once you lower a strut car too much, the point the wheel rotates around moves outside of the wheel and the wheel follows an arc opposite of what it should be. But if you adjust the pivot points of the lower control arm or strut, you can get rid of this effect. Granted even when it is following an arc that it should be, it's still not the best.

Compared to an SLA suspension in this regard, an SLA is much easier to get the desired wheel behavior. But unfortunately, there would be a ton of work involved in putting an Z32 suspension on an S13. You are going to have to do something about how the loads come into the chassis because it is greatly different than how an strut suspension loads that chassis. So that will be a lot of fabrication and design. It's not as easy as welding on a mounting bracket and bolting it up, if you think it is, then you should not even be considering this project.

I really don't think this is a good idea for most people to try. The amount of design that needs to go into it to do it right, is a lot more than people think. So, no offense, but if you don't even know why you would want a Z32 suspension besides you heard it was better, then this is out of your league.

So listen to Flybert, if you want SLA, get another car. If you're that serious about making your car handle, you can do it with the struts, there are many successful race cars using a MacP setup.

[McRussellPants]

Originally Posted by pablo180

Some of the down falls of the strut design are that the vehicle looses negative camber (goes into positive camber) in bump.

What? maybe if your car is lowered to the point where the LCA is 90 with the SAI.

Originally Posted by pablo180

The strut suspension design also puts the strut itself in bending. As a result the strut has to be stronger, hence heavier to avoid bending. Heavier weights at the corners increase your YAW moment affecting maneuverability. Bending loads on a strut create FRICTION which is the "absolute enemy of suspension function".

Don't buy non inverted coilovers, their valving generally sucks anyway. bam, done.


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Just run 1.5 more degrees of static camber compared to what you'd want with double wish and put the fucking books down.

done.

[Wiisass]

If the strut axis and the LCA form greater than a 90* angle then you will have positive camber gain in jounce, not the steering axis.

And struts have bending no matter what, it's due to the design. It doesn't matter if they're inverted or not.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

You people expect WAY too much out of these cars.

Or maybe you expect too little?

Despite the fact that the cars aren't Corvettes (which Viceroy consistently makes sure to remind us about... thanks guys!), they have the capability to handle with the big dogs. It might take a little development time and quite a bit of money but something that will bring the heat isn't out of the question for someone who watches their spending on frivolous stuff like partying and girlfriends.

Fact of the matter is that a properly caged car with a lot of front bracing (not necessarily integrated into the cage) and proper suspension setup will be able to pull enough gs to make you complain of neck fatigue, and that's without time developing aerodynamics.

Anyone who says "who cares, it's a 240SX" has already set themselves up for failure. Texas is the new Florida. Take your opinion and shove it.

Tim, if you want to experience what a non-caged, street-tired S13 with a lot of suspension work can do, show up at Horsethief Mile on March 3 and then tell me if you think Z32 suspension would be worth it.

[!Zar!]

KA24DESOneThree: I didn't make any statements on a 240 not being able to handle.

If that was the case I wouldn't have invested as much money as I did in my s14's suspension.

What I am stating is that people need to be happy with what they have.

People need to invest in regular suspension parts, tires, geometry and, skill before bashing what they know little to nothing about.

So I expect everything I need from my car. I'm realistic.

And in the end is it not just a 240?

[Team Rootbeer]

there are probably a select few on Zilvia that could actually even NOTICE the fucking difference between the two setups in an actual driving experience.

everyone stop whining and drive

[McRussellPants]

Why don't any of you Track Clowns just roll 450HP 3071 and 275/305 Stagger and beat vettes instead of womping about how if you adjusted your roll center enough and scraped the paint off your wheels to save 5 ounces your busty ass KA could maybe keep up?


Big Power(band) wins races, not just in drag racing.

DSG car beat N/A S2K by 2 seconds. how much of that is accounted for by a 150whp difference? maybe all of it :shrug:

[McRussellPants]

lolchmercerlol: nobody had 400 hp in initial d russell

oh fuck, charlie keeps me in check.

lol at KADEs sig. I don't know about everyone else but My parents are about ready to throw a cinder block through my windsheild.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by McRussellPants

Big Power(band) wins races, not just in drag racing.

DSG car beat N/A S2K by 2 seconds. how much of that is accounted for by a 150whp difference? maybe all of it :shrug:

Power does win races, that much we agree on. However, I find more skill development comes from being limited in power and having to conserve momentum and brake late. I can't save myself with power application because there's no power to apply.

!Zar!- The phrase "just a 240" bothers me with its dismissive attitude. Always has, always will.

You do bring up a good point about skill development; I can guarantee any driver here could see a decrease of at least a second (for the competition drivers in here, for the rest of us, we'd probably be looking at 3-plus second decreases on short tracks; I know I'd gain that much if I just improved my consistency) in their lap times at almost any track with a 3-day visit to a driving school. A switch to Z32 front suspension could not do the same.

Besides, wouldn't it be better to go with real racecar parts for the SLA setup rather than heavy and marginally adjustable stock bits? Tube frame the front, do some right proper measurements, weld some mounting tabs on and then do it with adjustable arms. Then widen the fenders by 150mm per side and put some 18x11s up there and call it good.

[Ian]

Yeah...so after driving REAL cars...you understand why people say "it's just a 240sx"


Corvettes are just better...Porsches are even better than that...deal with it

[OptionZero]

and mustangs are better than 911s!

[pablo180]

Originally Posted by McRussellPants

Just run 1.5 more degrees of static camber compared to what you'd want with double wish and put the fucking books down.

Sure you could run more static camber, but you'll affect straight line performance.

Originally Posted by McRussellPants

Who cares its a 240sx?

That comment is completely unncessary.

Originally Posted by McRussellPants

Why don't any of you Track Clowns just roll 450HP 3071 and 275/305 Stagger and beat vettes instead of womping about how if you adjusted your roll center enough and scraped the paint off your wheels to save 5 ounces your busty ass KA could maybe keep up?

Big Power(band) wins races, not just in drag racing.

The thread is about suspension geometry. Not engine performance.

[McRussellPants]

lol




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[seekanddestroy]

Originally Posted by pablo180

Sure you could run more static camber, but you'll affect straight line performance.

Straight line stability and traction to be exact, to a degree...
The Zero Sports STI is running something like 10 deg static and would destroy you on the track.

But then again, talking about suspension on a 240 forum is 100% pointless because 99% of the people on here are drifters.