fully threaded damper for coilover

[jbballa9876]

Whats up zilvians ive been out of the game for over a year as far as upgrading goes after parting out my old rb25 s13. Now for some time ive had a q45 g50 and im ready to start upgrading suspension. now this time i dont want off the shelf coilovers, i want to design mine from the ground up. hopefully someone can chime in whose been down this road before:

where can you buy the damper by itself with no mounts, that is fully threaded? ive searched every where on the net and always find ones that are partially threaded with a built in mount. im looking for bilstein or something high quality that i can run aggressive spring rates.

it seems like at this point ill have to get blown coilovers and have the damper rebuilt. btw the q45 uses basically the same size suspension as z32 and skyline.

im basically in bed for the next few days after getting surgery on a blown knee. if anyone has any advise or input i would be very happy to hear it. espcially if you have ever personally rebuilt a damper or found a new one that is threaded without mounts.

i suppose the only other thing i can think of is having a machine shop cut threads in a blank damper but that sounds shitty. thanks feel free to post here or pm me.

[heychris]

Koni

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[heychris]

Originally Posted by heychris

Koni

Sent using XT912 M

(edit) Check out Nissanroadracing.com and search Koni coil over with veilside180sx housings here and there...

Good luck

Ch

Sent using XT912 M

[jbballa9876]

Cool yea i have explored the koni 8611 option. i think to make things easier im going to use s13 rears with custom valving and z32 mounts.

basically trying to figure out length difference between z32 front and s14/s13 front if anyone knows?

[Matej]

Many coilover companies sell just the damper 'cartridges' as replacement parts.

Megan lists the lengths and specs of all their dampers on their website, which makes for a good reference point, since other companies most likely use similar lengths for the same application.
http://www.meganracing.com/product_page.asp?catid=31

[jbballa9876]

I have a friend who supposedly was able to get bilstein units, but he cant get ahold of him. they were fairly cheap with a huge 52mm piston but ive looked all over internet with no luck. i guess i have have my heart set on bilstein dampers but are nowhere to be found, im gonna call bilstein tmrw

[e1_griego]

Originally Posted by jbballa9876

Cool yea i have explored the koni 8611 option. i think to make things easier im going to use s13 rears with custom valving and z32 mounts.

basically trying to figure out length difference between z32 front and s14/s13 front if anyone knows?

z32 front isn't mac strut.

S13 rear with z32 mount doesn't make any sense at all. Just throw on a z32 rear shock.


Z32 koni yellow works in back if you're trying to save money.

[jbballa9876]

JIC Magic - CROSS Coilover Damper Replacements


this is exactly what im looking for but in bilstein. ive even considered finding the body by itself and going the extra mile and having the inside coated and use moton or ohlins pistons and internal parts

[racepar1]

What you are asking us to find for you does not exist. I have never seen an individually sold threaded damper unless it was a replacement part for a coilover setup. Koni and Bilstein do not sell just the damper with a threaded body. I would use Z32 front and rear Koni yellows, maybe have them re-valved if you're going to run stiff springs, and a ground control setup. As I recall the Z shocks are just a little shorter than the Q45 shocks, but that's fine since you're lowering the car anyways.

[jbballa9876]

Im at least wanting a monotube, pbm makes dampers for a 100 a piece and i could use them as a starting point. Not sure about their valving options, maybe a fixed mount coilover is all i really need.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by jbballa9876

Im at least wanting a monotube, pbm makes dampers for a 100 a piece and i could use them as a starting point. Not sure about their valving options, maybe a fixed mount coilover is all i really need.

Why do you want a monotube shock? The twin-tube Koni's are going to ride a bit smoother than a monotube Bilstein from my experience. The Koni yellow/GC setup is the closest thing to what you're looking for for a reasonable amount of effort and cost.

[Z28ricer]

So few posts, so much misinformation already.

Originally Posted by jbballa9876

I have a friend who supposedly was able to get bilstein units, but he cant get ahold of him. they were fairly cheap with a huge 52mm piston but ive looked all over internet with no luck. i guess i have have my heart set on bilstein dampers but are nowhere to be found, im gonna call bilstein tmrw

No bilsteins dont have any "huge 52mm piston" apparently you're lost, some bilsteins do indeed use a 52MM OD BODY but none use a 52mm PISTON, they use 36mm and 46mm

Originally Posted by jbballa9876

JIC Magic - CROSS Coilover Damper Replacements


this is exactly what im looking for but in bilstein. ive even considered finding the body by itself and going the extra mile and having the inside coated and use moton or ohlins pistons and internal parts

Apparently you haven't done much research if any at all here and are just talking based off of the little information you have.

You wont likely be using any moton pistons here, even though I haven't found a specific diameter on them, I HIGHLY doubt they're the same as the bilstein, and the ohlins piston idea wont work for much up front as finding 36mm Ohlins pistons seems to be like finding hens teeth, and even if you could, you really wouldn't likely be able to gain much over bilsteins digressive, or the cob/rbt digressive 36mm piston, for the rears sure you can use some Ohlins, of course by the time you pay what ohlins wants for a pair of their 46mm pistons (what the Bilsteins you tried to say use 52mm pistons, actually use), you could have bought 2 Penskes, 2 different types of pistons, and a valving kit.

Also that JIC damper wont get you anything usable other than a threaded housing that matches up with nothing else dimensionally.

[Z28ricer]

Originally Posted by racepar1

Why do you want a monotube shock? The twin-tube Koni's are going to ride a bit smoother than a monotube Bilstein from my experience. The Koni yellow/GC setup is the closest thing to what you're looking for for a reasonable amount of effort and cost.

To have dampers that don't leave you screwed on warranty, to have dampers that are easily user rebuildable.

Ride quality is subject to valving, you already know that, not to mention the ability to run a base valve with a monotube for any minute difference in driver "feel" twintubes wont get the same sort of repeatability of a monotube, not to mention increased stiffness of an inverted monotube up front, or the possibility for reduced unsprung weight in the rear.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by Z28ricer

To have dampers that don't leave you screwed on warranty, to have dampers that are easily user rebuildable.

Ride quality is subject to valving, you already know that, not to mention the ability to run a base valve with a monotube for any minute difference in driver "feel" twintubes wont get the same sort of repeatability of a monotube, not to mention increased stiffness of an inverted monotube up front, or the possibility for reduced unsprung weight in the rear.

OK OK, you're a Koni hater. I get it...

Typically twin tube dampers have a more comfortable ride feel. That may or may not be due to the fact that monotube dampers are typically valved more aggressively. Shocks do not increase stiffness, you should know that.

As far as "user rebuildable" pretty much nobody on pretty much any forums has the equipment to properly charge the shocks or the expertise to do the labor themselves. I do not see "user rebuildable" as any sort of valid argument. Bilsteins are however cheaper to rebuild/re-valve so there is a point to the cost.

Some people are hardcore for Koni's some people are hardcore for Bilsteins. BOTH camps are firmly entrenched in their positions. Attempting to argue which one is better is purerly subjective.

In all honesty, I prefer Bilsteins from my experience. Unfortuanetly there are not really any realistic or affordable Bilstein options for the S-chasis. Anything Bilstein would either have to be imported and would cost cubic megabucks, or it would have to be fabricated and a PITA. If they made Bilstein PSS9/10's for the 240's like they do for my M3, I would be all about them.

[Z28ricer]

Originally Posted by racepar1

OK OK, you're a Koni hater. I get it...

No, that i'm not, the warranty thing is just one of the reasons some people choose to run Bilstein, or other options, honestly the Konis are good dampers, and a great choice for some people, but hey I've got more bilsteins and penskes than reasonable for one car. It cost me less to build a setup with more adjustability than konis, for some this wont happen, but either way, koni, kw, bilstein, Penske, and ohlins are all options I definetly don't hate.

Originally Posted by racepar1

Typically twin tube dampers have a more comfortable ride feel. That may or may not be due to the fact that monotube dampers are typically valved more aggressively. Shocks do not increase stiffness, you should know that.

Yes "typically" but as you yourself admitted its subjective to valving, so why are you mentioning it to me when I've already said that ? Also as I already mentioned Base valves are an option for monotubes to improve driver "feel"

Originally Posted by racepar1

As far as "user rebuildable" pretty much nobody on pretty much any forums has the equipment to properly charge the shocks or the expertise to do the labor themselves. I do not see "user rebuildable" as any sort of valid argument. Bilsteins are however cheaper to rebuild/re-valve so there is a point to the cost.

I'm just going to say you're flat out wrong on this statement, I guess either you don't know what goes into it, or you like to make it seem harder than it really is. Yes most people around don't have a nitrogen filling station, but realistically local tire shops will fill them without issue, there really isn't a lot of "expertise" needed for a basic rebuild, yes I would say most around here don't have the expertise to revalve and make improving changes quickly and easily, but simple rebuilds don't take any voodoo magic.

Originally Posted by racepar1

Some people are hardcore for Koni's some people are hardcore for Bilsteins. BOTH camps are firmly entrenched in their positions. Attempting to argue which one is better is purerly subjective.

No, it isn't, the fade due to heating the oil in a twintube compared to the better cooling of a monotube cannot be refuted, the "driver feel" of a typical off the shelf twintube I wont refute, but again it can be matched with a base valve, leaving the upper hand still to the monotube. Also the improved resistance to flexing of the strut in a macpherson strut car using inverted monotubes vs twintube also gives an advantage to monotube.

Originally Posted by racepar1

In all honesty, I prefer Bilsteins from my experience. Unfortuanetly there are not really any realistic or affordable Bilstein options for the S-chasis. Anything Bilstein would either have to be imported and would cost cubic megabucks, or it would have to be fabricated and a PITA. If they made Bilstein PSS9/10's for the 240's like they do for my M3, I would be all about them.

Mine are sorta in that fabricated PITA category, of course I've got a few extra setups i'll be selling off soon that wont be megabucks for a few people around, the pss9's aren't anything good with their adjuster, I've actually got two of them that will probably stay in the extra parts pile because putting them together in a complete setup seems to be a waste of time compared to the bilsteins I've got assembled using ohlins, and Penske rebound adjusters.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by Z28ricer

No, that i'm not, the warranty thing is just one of the reasons some people choose to run Bilstein, or other options, honestly the Konis are good dampers, and a great choice for some people, but hey I've got more bilsteins and penskes than reasonable for one car. It cost me less to build a setup with more adjustability than konis, for some this wont happen, but either way, koni, kw, bilstein, Penske, and ohlins are all options I definetly don't hate.



Yes "typically" but as you yourself admitted its subjective to valving, so why are you mentioning it to me when I've already said that ? Also as I already mentioned Base valves are an option for monotubes to improve driver "feel"



I'm just going to say you're flat out wrong on this statement, I guess either you don't know what goes into it, or you like to make it seem harder than it really is. Yes most people around don't have a nitrogen filling station, but realistically local tire shops will fill them without issue, there really isn't a lot of "expertise" needed for a basic rebuild, yes I would say most around here don't have the expertise to revalve and make improving changes quickly and easily, but simple rebuilds don't take any voodoo magic.



No, it isn't, the fade due to heating the oil in a twintube compared to the better cooling of a monotube cannot be refuted, the "driver feel" of a typical off the shelf twintube I wont refute, but again it can be matched with a base valve, leaving the upper hand still to the monotube. Also the improved resistance to flexing of the strut in a macpherson strut car using inverted monotubes vs twintube also gives an advantage to monotube.



Mine are sorta in that fabricated PITA category, of course I've got a few extra setups i'll be selling off soon that wont be megabucks for a few people around, the pss9's aren't anything good with their adjuster, I've actually got two of them that will probably stay in the extra parts pile because putting them together in a complete setup seems to be a waste of time compared to the bilsteins I've got assembled using ohlins, and Penske rebound adjusters.

You are CLEARLY not the typical car guy, MUCH LESS 240sx guy. That is crystal clear. Hell, I've got all sorts of coilover parts and pieces laying around, not a single one of them is from Ohlins or Penske's. I, personally, would not feel comfortable tearing into any shock absorber for any reason without a COMPLETE understanding of what's inside and what it all does. If I am not comfortable most everyone else isn't either. There aren't a whole lot of things regarding repairing and modifying a car that I am not comfortable with. Your perspective on this particular argument is a bit skewed simply because you seem to be a bit of an expert on shock absorbers. DEFINITELY let me know when you get around to selling those "extra" setups. If my finances are right at the time I'm in for one of them! I have no doubt whatsoever that Ohlins and Penske adjusters are superior to Bilstein and Koni. That's not even a fair comparison. Bilstein's and Koni's are very good shocks, but they're a far cry from an Ohlins or Penske motorsports shock.

[heychris]

I think the OP should apologize for starting a big olé argument......

Seriously though we should get the thread back on target and save the what's better than what discussion for NRR where I know you 2 are members.

@ racepar ... You can follow Ricers Bilstien thread @ NRR as well. Interesting info.

Seems to me the OP is stuck at easy to put together vs. Megabucks fabricated one offs... If money is the object it'd be hard not to just go Koni for daily duty, or even some other JDM Tyte Yo coil over... Eibach even maybe...

Ch

Sent using XT912 M

[Z28ricer]

Originally Posted by racepar1

Hell, I've got all sorts of coilover parts and pieces laying around, not a single one of them is from Ohlins or Penske's. I, personally, would not feel comfortable tearing into any shock absorber for any reason without a COMPLETE understanding of what's inside and what it all does. If I am not comfortable most everyone else isn't either. There aren't a whole lot of things regarding repairing and modifying a car that I am not comfortable with.

This is one of those things that isn't done a lot, but honestly should be done more, rebuilding a monotube shock isn't very complicated, modifying the valving is a bit more important and maybe should be hands off for most thing. But honestly there are far more people here doing engine rebuilds and wiring harnesses off of peoples interwebs "write-ups" that shouldn't be touching that stuff.

Originally Posted by racepar1

I have no doubt whatsoever that Ohlins and Penske adjusters are superior to Bilstein and Koni. That's not even a fair comparison. Bilstein's and Koni's are very good shocks, but they're a far cry from an Ohlins or Penske motorsports shock.

Honestly for the most part, they're on par, adjuster aside for setups using a linear, or double digressive piston, yes some of the more expensive digressive/linear, vdp, high frequency, etc pistons can be more advantageous over the other stuff, but comparing a typical digressive from each of those 3, I wouldn't say you'll get much with a Penske or Ohlins over a Bilstein.


Now onto the usable info for the OP, i'm going to start with the fronts, and give you a breakdown on what you're looking at with the damper, some modified ones I've worked on, and what does and doesn't work. Some of this you may already know, some you may not, the stuff i'll assume you already know I'm still going to post for others that want to learn.

These are OEM Evo9 front Bilstein struts, they actually make a good usable option if you're willing to do a little work. A few things for those who are learning here, the chrome "shaft" that goes up to the strut plate is not a "shaft" it is actually the shock "body" it is hollow, the shaft is actually pointing down into the yellow housing and the piston is bolted to the end of the shaft, the hard chromed body slides up and down into the housing, between the housing and the outside of the body are a pair of dry slide bushings, these are spaced around 5" apart, at full extension the bottom of the body is ideally right at the bottom of the lower bushing. The outside diameter of the chromed body is 40mm, often shock manufacturers (you know those crappy chinamade,taiwanmade, etc junk dampers) will often quote the OD of the body as the "piston" diameter, know now, this is wrong and they're FOS. The inside bore of the body is 36mm and corresponds with the actual 36mm piston, inside is a dividing piston, some oil and some gas, at the top of the strut is where the gas is, then the dividing piston, then the area below the dividing piston is full of oil and the piston is in there moving back and forth in the oil.


Now that you know what you're looking at, i'll get on to key points of using these, the lower portion where it bolts to the spindle, of course we don't get lucky here and it isn't the same as an schassis, what you want to do is cut off the stock mounts, and weld on some ears to get a strut that will bolt to an schassis.

OMG, NO, YOU CANT DO THAT IT WILL BLOW UP, you say ?

No silly don't just go hacking and melting metal without doing things properly. See the picture below the Evo Strut, while no it isn't a Bilstein, its an inverted monotube insert removed from an S13 coilover (Silkroad), for a lot of things its essentially the same, you can see the small chrome actual shock shaft poking out, what you want to do is remove the insert from the evo housing, to do this you remove the locknut on the bottom which is threaded on the shock shaft, then there is a hex cut into the end of the shock shaft turn this to unthread the insert, once the threads clear the hole, you can pull the entire insert out. At that point you are freeeee, cut off the evo bracketry, and weld on mounting ears for your schassis spindles, bonus points for having the housings turned in a lathe to completely clean them up, though for all intents and purposes you can do just fine with an angle grinder here.





Bilstein EvoX strut after cutting off the bracketry and turning it clean in a lathe, with metal plates cut and drilled for the Schassis spindle



After welding on the ears and slipping on a coilover sleeve



A Porsche Bilstein PSS9, after cutting off the bracketry and then having the threads finished on a lathe, while these particular ones are too long to be ideal as-is for an schassis, this shows you what you can do if you start out with an appropriate length set, the thread is M52x1.5, pbm's finer thread coilovers use this so you could just get lower brackets from them, this is what I intended to do with this set, however errors on their part resulted in a lot of waiting on my end, a good bit of profit on their end, and a lot of useless parts on my end. You cant just take other Bilstein struts and have the threads cut like this because the OEM stuff are typically 50MM OD, I don't remember now what the Evo9's were but for some reason I think they may have actually been 52mm, which could be cut for threads, the X's were 50mm.





Another option is to start with certain coilovers that fit the schassis and modify the body to fit the bilstein inserts, they have to be big enough to fit the dry slide bushings into, and then most of them are so short that you'll need specifically modified strut bodys to use them, ideally with remote reservoirs, both of those features are what i'm using on the sets i'm putting together.



What is inside and what goes into a rebuild ?

Pistons:



Complete Bilstein PSS9 shimstack and normal digressive piston, none of this do you have to disassemble to do a basic rebuild.





Not going to go to far into rears tonight, maybe tomorrow if theres interest, heres some pics of the Evo9 Bilsteins on the rear, not ideal for super slammed height, but a great choice at reasonable heights.




Some random other bilsteins that I cut the lower mounts off of and welded on mounts from Q45/Z32 oem shocks.