SR20 Reliability Build Questions

[Shimadorisanni]

I am currently running a bone stock redtop SR with the exception of a few bolt ons:
-hks actuator
-intercooler
-full exhaust
-rocker arm stoppers

I am soon going to be redoing the entire motor setup to accomplish the following tasks; 300rwhp, reliable SR. I have researched for a long time on various forums and I have found that in order to do this I would probably need the following parts:

-ARP headstuds
-apexi/tomei headgasket (don't know the size, was thinking 87x1.1mm)
-550cc or larger injectors
-s15 t28
-power fc or retune of ECU
-tomei poncam (256)
-koyorad (recommendations on size appreciated)
-perhaps keep stock clutch fan setup??? Advice here as well
-z32 maf
-oil pan (upgraded size)


Is there anything else I could be missing for reliability wise? I am interested in a RELIABLE 300whp on the SR. The motor will be seeing lots of use bot on and off the track, so reliability will be key. I have been told to keep internals stock at this power range, but I have also been told that upgrading the internals wouldn't hurt. Interested in any advice and opinions. This is my first SR after owning an RB for 3 years.

[indomiekid1]

looks like your on the right path.
i'd keep the stock fan, shroud.
id add an oil cooler, if your going to be tracking the car.
as for upgrading the motor, it really is up to you, have you done a compression check?
do you have the money to upgrade pistons and rods etc??

[Shimadorisanni]

Ahhh yes i agree on the oil cooler, that was something i have over looked. I have done a compression check, and as of now the motor is still running numbers higher than 150 on stock cams. I have not really looked at internals yet, but if there is any brands that people tend to use, I would be all ears.

[indomiekid1]

im planning the same as you are. But when I picked my motor up I did an oem refresh, just bearings, rings, headgasket etc etc.
if you plan to track it more, and you gots the money/time id say do the upgrade.
As for pistons id say cp, wiseco, mahle.

There is plenty to read up on.
im planning the same as you are

[JBB]

You dont really need cams, arp headstuds, upgraded headgasket for 300

s15 turbo/injectors (or 550's 740's etc)
z32 maf
tune
golden



please dont get a power fc or any other variation of it and start pressing buttons. for that power range, have a knowledgable tuner put a rom tune on your ecu. It might even be worth the drive over here to Tampa to visit Martin at fever racing



if you are "redoing" your entire motor, get an oem rebuild kit and replace all of your gaskets. pick up a new water pump. oil pump. check your timing guides, the redtop design sucks (plastic), they released a better guide with a metal part that reinforces it (i know, mine was cracked in half). pick up the s14 sr oil pickup/strainer. wouldnt be a bad idea to grab an s14 water neck and turbo lines to run off the tap on that neck so you can eliminate the line behind the head. you could replace all of your vacuum and coolant lines since they are 20 years old. replace valve stem seals.

do all of this and youll basically have a brand new engine.

[indomiekid1]

jbb is right, but all those other items would be nice.

[Silverbullet]

If your motor is coming directly from an importer, I would do a rebuild for reliability. Its not 2004 anymore. Honest 40-60k mile motors no longer exist.

For 300WHP OEM parts are perfectly fine, howver if the motor is already going to be opened, i'd go ahead and put in forged pistons, and ARP studs to set you up for the future upgrades for not that much more money.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by Silverbullet

If your motor is coming directly from an importer, I would do a rebuild for reliability. Its not 2004 anymore. Honest 40-60k mile motors no longer exist.

For 300WHP OEM parts are perfectly fine, howver if the motor is already going to be opened, i'd go ahead and put in forged pistons, and ARP studs to set you up for the future upgrades for not that much more money.

not worth it. You'll spend more time and effort and cash putting forged pistons into an SR20DET just to have it fail (unless it's built by mazworx) than it would cost to do an OEM 2jz-gte swap and carry 470rwhp on pump gas with OEM internals and NOT fail.

forged pistons are great in theory but in my experience, due to the excess piston wall clearance and other engine building issues specific to the sr20det, they never work out the way you would expect.

And this is overlooking the fact that we are still talking 122 cubic inches. Totally not worth the 400+ power mark in a daily driver application. I would rather push 150+ cubic inches (or 350cid hint hint) and drive that 3000lb vehicle around. OR keep it below 340rwhp leave the oem internals in the 2.0 and keep it as stock as possible and drive it till she passes a ring.

[Shimadorisanni]

Originally Posted by JBB

You dont really need cams, arp headstuds, upgraded headgasket for 300



s15 turbo/injectors (or 550's 740's etc)

z32 maf

tune

golden







please dont get a power fc or any other variation of it and start pressing buttons. for that power range, have a knowledgable tuner put a rom tune on your ecu. It might even be worth the drive over here to Tampa to visit Martin at fever racing







if you are "redoing" your entire motor, get an oem rebuild kit and replace all of your gaskets. pick up a new water pump. oil pump. check your timing guides, the redtop design sucks (plastic), they released a better guide with a metal part that reinforces it (i know, mine was cracked in half). pick up the s14 sr oil pickup/strainer. wouldnt be a bad idea to grab an s14 water neck and turbo lines to run off the tap on that neck so you can eliminate the line behind the head. you could replace all of your vacuum and coolant lines since they are 20 years old. replace valve stem seals.



do all of this and youll basically have a brand new engine.

I agree that I may not need all of those things to reach the power goal I had in mind, but I have heard that adding cams that have a larger lift would greatly assist in making power more efficiently, and allowing me to have more top end power and help with smoothing out the power band. What is everybody's rap with a power fc? I would not be the one tuning it, as I have a friend locally that is adept at tuning the Power Fc. I have seen a couple of my friends in Japan run the Power Fc and I have heard nothing but good things about its capabilities for the builds that they have.

The OEM rebuild is an extremely good idea, I will definitely be adding that into the list of things that will be at the top of my list. I knew about the timing guides on the redtop and I never knew that they were this big of a problem, but I can see where they have the ability to fail and the information you have given me has helped me in making a to do list for this new build. All of my coolant lines are steel braided AN, but when I pull the motor again, I will recheck all the lines for any stripped ends or leaks. The s14 parts for the oil strainer/oil pickup is an awesome idea too. I fucking hate that line to the back of the block. Valve stem seal would have also be replaced too, i forgot to add that on the list.

Thanks for all the good information. I will be sure to implement this when I have enough downtime to pull the motor.

[Shimadorisanni]

Originally Posted by indomiekid1

im planning the same as you are. But when I picked my motor up I did an oem refresh, just bearings, rings, headgasket etc etc.
if you plan to track it more, and you gots the money/time id say do the upgrade.
As for pistons id say cp, wiseco, mahle.

There is plenty to read up on.
im planning the same as you are

Would it really be worth it to upgrade rods and pistons? I have heard that internally the OEM SR rods and pistons are rated to around 350-400whp. I feel like my 300whp build would be enough to keep them under the stress limit for these components.

What would be ball park for pistons and rods? price wise

[Shimadorisanni]

Originally Posted by Silverbullet

If your motor is coming directly from an importer, I would do a rebuild for reliability. Its not 2004 anymore. Honest 40-60k mile motors no longer exist.

For 300WHP OEM parts are perfectly fine, howver if the motor is already going to be opened, i'd go ahead and put in forged pistons, and ARP studs to set you up for the future upgrades for not that much more money.

The motor was not direct from an importer. I was a friends motor and as a result I know a lot about the motor from when I bought it. I do want to do forged pistons and what not, but I am a little apprehensive as this is my first time working on the internals of the motor. ARP studs are a definite must, I had that at the top of my list for a reason hahaha

[Shimadorisanni]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

not worth it. You'll spend more time and effort and cash putting forged pistons into an SR20DET just to have it fail (unless it's built by mazworx) than it would cost to do an OEM 2jz-gte swap and carry 470rwhp on pump gas with OEM internals and NOT fail.

forged pistons are great in theory but in my experience, due to the excess piston wall clearance and other engine building issues specific to the sr20det, they never work out the way you would expect.

And this is overlooking the fact that we are still talking 122 cubic inches. Totally not worth the 400+ power mark in a daily driver application. I would rather push 150+ cubic inches (or 350cid hint hint) and drive that 3000lb vehicle around. OR keep it below 340rwhp leave the oem internals in the 2.0 and keep it as stock as possible and drive it till she passes a ring.

My power goal; as in the maximum amount of power I would ever try and squeeze from my SR would be 300rwhp. I was looking into the 2jz/1jz swap a while back, but for the price of those motors and the cost for the swap, it just was not economical for me at the time. I have also heard the same thing about forged pistons for the SR and that they do no always tend to work the way they are supposed to, and often times are less reliable at that power number compared to their OEM counterparts. This build is not for power at all, I am a novice driver, and realize this. More power would not let me grow as a driver at this stage, and frankly anything over 400rwhp is not necessary for the tracks we have here. This car is also my daily as well, so that would be the other reason I would not be too keen on making a high horsepower car. I feel like I would lose my ability to get ~28 mpg in the city hahahah

[blkvrtswp]

My 2 cents: If you want 'reliability' skip the head work completely. OEM gasket, cams and head bolts handle 300+ WHP all the time. The loss in reliability will not be worth the small cam power gains at under 300 HP levels.

[indomiekid1]

great advice from everyone, it really is depending on time/money etc.

[Shimadorisanni]

Originally Posted by blkvrtswp

My 2 cents: If you want 'reliability' skip the head work completely. OEM gasket, cams and head bolts handle 300+ WHP all the time. The loss in reliability will not be worth the small cam power gains at under 300 HP levels.

Originally the only head work i was thinking of doing was the tomei poncams, are these really that detrimental with the proper tune?

[Shimadorisanni]

I was not originally planning on doing aftermarket pistons and rods.

[genericforumname]

I dont see where Tomei 256's would cause a drop in reliability. As far as I know they are the only ones rated to maintain VTC in s14 engines which mine both is, and has installed in.

Minus the s15 turbo my S14sr is almost exactly what you've written.

-stock block
-Z32 maf
-stock manifolds
-Unknown brand 550cc injectors
-Apexi Turnflow Intercooler
-Apexi Intake for Z32 maf
-Tomei 256 cams
-New gaskets+copper sprayed+new rubber gaskets
-Koyo radiator, the aluminum unfortunately, the copper ones are apparently much better.
-stock fan
-Rom tune from Enthalpy
-Tomey dump pipe
-Greddy Downpipe
-Catco 3" High flow cat
-Circuit Sports 3" catback

If it matters the only reason I'm running larger injectors and the Turnflow is because they came installed on the engine when I got my clip off the flatbed. for what it's worth the only things I plan on changing from this point is to ceramic coat the exhaust manifold, get myself a new gtx series turbo, replace the throttle body with a larger one and get myself a better intercooler that has a more direct airflow path instead of the maze it is now. eventually I'd like to try out the new up-rated clutch fan blade from GKTech too but those are all relatively minor mods but I think our goals are somewhat similar so I thought I'd add this in.

I figure this will be the best compromise between better usability without any significant decrease in reliability or gas mileage, though I will admit I don't always drive the most conservatively anyway.

[Shimadorisanni]

Originally Posted by genericforumname

I dont see where Tomei 256's would cause a drop in reliability. As far as I know they are the only ones rated to maintain VTC in s14 engines which mine both is, and has installed in.

Minus the s15 turbo my S14sr is almost exactly what you've written.

-stock block
-Z32 maf
-stock manifolds
-Unknown brand 550cc injectors
-Apexi Turnflow Intercooler
-Apexi Intake for Z32 maf
-Tomei 256 cams
-New gaskets+copper sprayed+new rubber gaskets
-Koyo radiator, the aluminum unfortunately, the copper ones are apparently much better.
-stock fan
-Rom tune from Enthalpy
-Tomey dump pipe
-Greddy Downpipe
-Catco 3" High flow cat
-Circuit Sports 3" catback

If it matters the only reason I'm running larger injectors and the Turnflow is because they came installed on the engine when I got my clip off the flatbed. for what it's worth the only things I plan on changing from this point is to ceramic coat the exhaust manifold, get myself a new gtx series turbo, replace the throttle body with a larger one and get myself a better intercooler that has a more direct airflow path instead of the maze it is now. eventually I'd like to try out the new up-rated clutch fan blade from GKTech too but those are all relatively minor mods but I think our goals are somewhat similar so I thought I'd add this in.

I figure this will be the best compromise between better usability without any significant decrease in reliability or gas mileage, though I will admit I don't always drive the most conservatively anyway.

How is reliability on the motor? Do you attend hard drifting events and does the motor take a moderately large beating? I just want something I can have a blast in with reliability that I know the SR can give if given the chance to and built like a normal person would build them. Thanks for all the input, this is helping me out a lot.

As a result of the information presented to me in this thread, I am leaning toward:

Tomei 256 poncams
Power fc (tuned by a good tuner)
Reseal the entire motor
New water pump
Oil pump
New valve guides (upgrade from plastic)
Z32 maf
550cc injectors
Stock headgasket
Koyo copper core
S15 T28

[King.D]

If you want a reliable sr with alot of power gotta do Forged pistons and rods.. t28 turbo would do fine..wouldnt boost more then 20psi to be safe.. I would also keep the stock manifold and get it ported... Enathpy tune is a great raw tune... My buddy and i are running same setup for 2 years so far stock head no valve work done .. Dynoed at 380hp at 20 psi


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[Shimadorisanni]

Originally Posted by King.D

If you want a reliable sr with alot of power gotta do Forged pistons and rods.. t28 turbo would do fine..wouldnt boost more then 20psi to be safe.. I would also keep the stock manifold and get it ported... Enathpy tune is a great raw tune... My buddy and i are running same setup for 2 years so far stock head no valve work done .. Dynoed at 380hp at 20 psi


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Really not looking for anything above 300whp. It would be cool to have a ~400hp SR but as of current, my bank account won't be able to handle the increased burden of all of those parts. To be completely honest; 300whp would be the absolutely max I would want to go with the SR, I see really no point for me to push it any further since the car the motor is in is currently my daily drift car.

[King.D]

No worrys just throwing out it there.. I dailey mine took mine to the 1/4 track las weeknd did high 11"s and still daily driving it.. But i dailey on 13psi .. I slide on 15 psi and still going strong... But cheers and good luck with your project


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[Shimadorisanni]

Originally Posted by King.D

No worrys just throwing out it there.. I dailey mine took mine to the 1/4 track las weeknd did high 11"s and still daily driving it.. But i dailey on 13psi .. I slide on 15 psi and still going strong... But cheers and good luck with your project


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Thanks man, much respect for your build too. Getting ~400whp out of an SR is no easy feat and you seem to have a pretty solid build going strong. Maybe if my driving abilities improve I would be more inclined to up the power! But for now I am definitely a novice and wouldn't want something I could control or afford hahahaha

[blkvrtswp]

Originally Posted by genericforumname

I dont see where Tomei 256's would cause a drop in reliability.

Not from the cams themselves, the reliability issues come from the work to swap the cams. It might not be rocket science, but it is also not a cakewalk.

[Silverbullet]

This seemed to have came up twice in this thread. Reduced reliability as a result of improperly performing the work to install the components is something completely different. I would not let this shy you away from performing an upgrade at all. That is just silly assuming the work won't be done properly.

[King.D]

Originally Posted by Shimadorisanni

Thanks man, much respect for your build too. Getting ~400whp out of an SR is no easy feat and you seem to have a pretty solid build going strong. Maybe if my driving abilities improve I would be more inclined to up the power! But for now I am definitely a novice and wouldn't want something I could control or afford hahahaha

Haha thanks but 400 is controllable but anyhow good luck on your project i you want cheap easy 300 max hp i would just get 550 injectors T28 turbo .. Raw tune i would jus stick with the same iron manifold there pretty strong .. But anyhow cheers on on your goal


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[Fuego]

400 is plenty easy in an SR, just costs more.

Anyway, I would ditch the cams in that build list. You say reliability, but they're going to move the power band further up and increase your chances of valve float or rocker arms going full 'tard.

[Kingtal0n]

A t-28 will not be happy at 300rwhp. not even at 280rwhp.

A t-28 from an oem sr20det is happy around 245rwhp. anything more than that is asking for trouble, excessive wear and tear.

if you want a reliable 300 from an sr20det then you need to upgrade to an aftermarket garret turbocharger, such as GT28RS.

camshafts would be a worthwhile investment, they will allow you to use less boost to make the same amount of power. No reason to go big with the camshafts; some S3's are perfect.

[dorkidori_s13]

get rid of damn near every tuning problem youll run into with a MAF and switch to a MAP based ECU... AEM or PowerFC DJetro will handle it just fine.

MAF tends to be VERY fickle! if your air filter gets dirty, your car will fall out of tune. even changing to a higher flowing air filter will screw with your A/F ratios! the MAP sensor eliminates this by metering air based on manifold vacuum instead of intake based velocity.

also, i will argue with the head gasket comment above. OEM SR head gaskets are OK, but for a certain length of time, especially getting into the 300+ horsepower range. im surprised mine held on as long as it did in my last SR. upgrading to a much better quality head gasket will ensure you never have problems. ARP head studs arent a bad idea either, especially if youre replacing the head gasket. youve already got the head off, might as well update 20+ year old parts with something that is better built than the OEM units.

and i call complete bullshit on the T28 not handling 300whp. mine did it just fine and it was an S14 turbo with no headwork! mind you, if you want to get into the 350-400hp range, a bigger T28 or even GT30r/GT35r is HIGHLY recommended (even if just barely over 300, a bigger turbo does help as it pushes less boost to attain equal power). my little T28 did 268hp/258tq on a mustang dyno which equates out to 300+ on a dynojet (12-15% difference in power read outs on dynojets compared to mustang dynos). mind you i was running E85 with a stand alone, but that was about it. just basic bolt ons required for handling more fuel and exhaust. no head or bottom end work was ever done. motor and turbo held together just fine thru multiple events plus weekend driving for almost 3 years before i sold it. the jackass who bought the car after me cooked the bottom end because he thought he could tune it himself back to 91 and roasted the turbo because all he did was beat on the car!

but, i will agree with the cam shaft comment. its fairly spot on! even stage 1 cams in an SR help wonders! anything above 256 (if i remember correctly) range will require better valve springs and retainers.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Originally Posted by King.D

If you want a reliable sr with alot of power gotta do Forged pistons and rods.. t28 turbo would do fine..wouldnt boost more then 20psi to be safe.. I would also keep the stock manifold and get it ported... Enathpy tune is a great raw tune... My buddy and i are running same setup for 2 years so far stock head no valve work done .. Dynoed at 380hp at 20 psi


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20 psi on a stock T28?

Originally Posted by blkvrtswp

Not from the cams themselves, the reliability issues come from the work to swap the cams. It might not be rocket science, but it is also not a cakewalk.

Kicker is, he's planning on doing the headgasket anyways. He's gonna take the damn cams/head off either way. If he can change a head gasket with help from a couple of friends, I dont see how he can't put drop in cams with it.

Personally, I would go stock HG, ARP head studs, double rocker arm guides, fresh oil pump, water pump, Nismo thermo, Z32 Maf, clutch fan/shroud. For tuning, all up to you. People aren't a big fan of PFCs since they're. They're still good but there are better options nowadays for as much as it would cost you to get a new PFC, commander, dataloggit and tuning cost. You can do more with AEM.

Rom tuning, this is a cheaper alternative to running a standalone. I'm not a big fan of it but since you're in FL, JBB pretty much hit it on the head. Martin can rom tune your ECU on the dyno, that's the only way I'd run a rom tune. Mail order rom tunes...Never again.

From what folks who's done the double rocker arm guides, you can forgo rocker arm stoppers, but still wouldnt hurt to have them. If you're planning on getting fresh bronze valve guides and you plan on drifting (bouncing off the rev limiter), wouldnt hurt to run some stiffer valve springs and titanium retainers since you're already there.

Turbo wise, 300hp or 300whp? If whp, SpecR T28 may not be enough to get you there. Like KingTalon already said, GT28RS, maybe even a .64 trim GT2871R. Either way, 550cc wont be enough to support either turbo. I'd go atleast 650cc or even some 740cc. Wouldnt hurt nothing to have larger injectors since the car will be tuned for them, always better to have more than less. Plus you wont have to worry about getting another set of injectors when/if you decide you want more power later down the road. Also, if you decide to go larger turbo than the T28, get with CodyAce and get your stock manifold extrude honed/go external wastegate.

Only other thing you didnt take into consideration: Clutch and fuel pump. Run atleast an Exedy Stage 3 (3 puck) or ACT clutch (stay the fuck away from SPEC) and don't go Walbro if you want a reliable pump. Bosch 044, maybe even a brand new OEM Z32 TT pump.

[King.D]

Originally Posted by fliprayzin240sx

20 psi on a stock T28?







Kicker is, he's planning on doing the headgasket anyways. He's gonna take the damn cams/head off either way. If he can change a head gasket with help from a couple of friends, I dont see how he can't put drop in cams with it.



Personally, I would go stock HG, ARP head studs, double rocker arm guides, fresh oil pump, water pump, Nismo thermo, Z32 Maf, clutch fan/shroud. For tuning, all up to you. People aren't a big fan of PFCs since they're. They're still good but there are better options nowadays for as much as it would cost you to get a new PFC, commander, dataloggit and tuning cost. You can do more with AEM.



Rom tuning, this is a cheaper alternative to running a standalone. I'm not a big fan of it but since you're in FL, JBB pretty much hit it on the head. Martin can rom tune your ECU on the dyno, that's the only way I'd run a rom tune. Mail order rom tunes...Never again.



From what folks who's done the double rocker arm guides, you can forgo rocker arm stoppers, but still wouldnt hurt to have them. If you're planning on getting fresh bronze valve guides and you plan on drifting (bouncing off the rev limiter), wouldnt hurt to run some stiffer valve springs and titanium retainers since you're already there.



Turbo wise, 300hp or 300whp? If whp, SpecR T28 may not be enough to get you there. Like KingTalon already said, GT28RS, maybe even a .64 trim GT2871R. Either way, 550cc wont be enough to support either turbo. I'd go atleast 650cc or even some 740cc. Wouldnt hurt nothing to have larger injectors since the car will be tuned for them, always better to have more than less. Plus you wont have to worry about getting another set of injectors when/if you decide you want more power later down the road. Also, if you decide to go larger turbo than the T28, get with CodyAce and get your stock manifold extrude honed/go external wastegate.



Only other thing you didnt take into consideration: Clutch and fuel pump. Run atleast an Exedy Stage 3 (3 puck) or ACT clutch (stay the fuck away from SPEC) and don't go Walbro if you want a reliable pump. Bosch 044, maybe even a brand new OEM Z32 TT pump.

Yessir i got videos dynoes sheets even 1/4 mile runs on 20psi doing high 11,s on MT drag a
Slicks and it still spins first gear i also call bullshit on a t28 turbo not handleing 300 lol not gonna lie i dont run 20 psi everyday but only when intake it to the track


Mr.castro