the legend of the NA KA....

[Sean1978]

Every "I want to build a NA KA or SR" thread I read someone seems to chime in about 300HP ITB powered KA engines in Nissan race trucks or SOCH ITB cars built cheap as hell. can anyone actually show me a picture or a dynop sheet for such an engine? I have never seen a 300HP NA KA anywhere. I always here about a "friend of a friend' that had one or about some nismo racetruck....

anyone have any hard links to one of these "NA KA MONSTER" engines or are they just an internet myth?


the only ITB powered DOHC engine I have seen is the one that the guy on here posted last month, it's pretty cool but it only has like 180hp...

[JVD]

Making that kind of power with a KA is not worth it anyways. You will end up spending a lot more than a good turbo setup to reach 300hp. Also, from what I remember the engines you are talking about are all out race engines. ie. they had to be rebuilt after each race. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

JVD.

[Sean1978]

I'm not trying to build an engine like that myself, I have a turbo SR in one of my cars and a stock KA in my other, I'm just curious to actually see one of these engines..

[Chernobyl]

Google around for SCCA GT2 cars.

S14 bodies with SOHC KA monsters built by Robello and the likes. Lots of old school L-series tricks are used, since the blocks are not-so distant descendants.

[Cashizslick]

NA = the expensive way to go slow.


However, i'll admit that it does take a GREAT deal of skill to build and tune a powerfull NA motor.

[Sean1978]

I found this pic so far, looks like a ITB KA24E with carbs... correct me if I'm wrong I'm no expert. looks sweet, however couldn't find specs. I'm still looking for a DOCH car..

[e1_griego]

Uhhhhh....that's an l-series, and a 6 cylinder. Not a ka-e at all.

Alex

[Irukandji]

yeaaaaaahhhhh

6 throttle bottles....meaning 6 cylinders..... aka... not a ka

there is a whole damn forum for this stuff... no need to make your own thread.

[Steeles]

Originally Posted by Cashizslick

NA = the expensive way to go slow.


However, i'll admit that it does take a GREAT deal of skill to build and tune a powerfull NA motor.

just ask BMW. they make some of the most insanely powerful NA engines in street cars.

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by Steeles

just ask BMW. they make some of the most insanely powerful NA engines in street cars.

Have you ever seen one on a dyno? Not that impressive...

[Steeles]

yes I have. my uncle owns an 06 M3, my dad has an 06 750. I've driven M3s and Mcoupes. I am well aware of what the engines can do. and those aren't even their big engines. I'm dying to get behind the wheel of an M5 or M6. 500hp V10.

[Chernobyl]

http://www.rebelloracing.com/

Their website doesn't show much, though.

[that180guy]

Originally Posted by Cashizslick

NA = the expensive way to go slow.


However, i'll admit that it does take a GREAT deal of skill to build and tune a powerfull NA motor.

tell that to spoon, or 13 second 170whp honda civics....or the guys at rebello

[sideview_180sx]

Originally Posted by that180guy

tell that to spoon, or 13 second 170whp honda civics....or the guys at rebello

you are also comparing apples to oranges. Where as all of those motors don't put out the amount of torque, nor have the same rod/stroke ratio to deal with. All the honda/toyota/bmw enginesa are all designed differently. However one must remember the amount of r&d going into making a sporty NA engine or a heavy duty lugger.

[that180guy]

^^ you are correct, as for the engine designs are differnt. i was just saying that;
calling a NA build the expensive way to go slow just because its horsepower to dolla ratio is low, compared to say a turbos is the same kind of comparrison.
im just saying, imho, the comparission of na and turbo(which alot of ppl do) doesnt work as drinking beer then drinking milk.

[Sean1978]

Uhhhhh....that's an l-series, and a 6 cylinder. Not a ka-e at all.

Alex

oops... pwned myself

I was in a rush after work when I posted that... still, nobody has any links to a 300HP ITB KA monster? even IF it's an all out race motor? or...

maybe we need to call these guys..

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by n1sm0r

yeaaaaaahhhhh

6 throttle bottles....meaning 6 cylinders..... aka... not a ka

there is a whole damn forum for this stuff... no need to make your own thread.

well thats not really considered 6 throttle bodies,reason is they are being fed off a single float bowl and joined jet setup per carburetor. Technically thats triple 2 barrel sidedraft carburetors i.e. Webers!!
Italian Carburetors, those and Mikuni Solex's used to the rage on 2000 roadsters, 510's/610's/710's and 240/260/280z's back in early 70's through mid 80's . Classic L series engine setup.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Wheres Bory when you need him? He knows bout these GT2 KAs cuz he actually works as a pit monkey. He said they make between 300-350whp with a 10K redline depending on the spec. But at the same time the engines cost somewhere between $10-15K each. He said that they would go tru 2-3 engines per race depending on warm-up, qualifying, and the race itself.

Edit: I take that back...hes working in GT3...Hes actually trying to sell a GT3 engine, just cant remember if its a SOHC or DOHC
http://www.zilvia.net/f/member.php?u=16036

[BigVinnie]

Well right now I am discussing the production of a fully counter weighed crank with Paul Saintclair (NISMO core and gt developement). From what I understand the core and GT series internals are soooo far from stock OEM the whole entire bottom end of the KA is redesigned. I asked for a price quote on the crank alone and lets just say it's well over 5000 big ones. That doesn't include the redesigned rods, bearings, or pistons needed to complete the smooth harmonic, low friction 9000+ RPM redline.
The only way the KA can achieve that 300+CHP is due to it's additional redline that is complimented with the newer internals to drag the power band far enough before it would severly dyno dip. ITB's don't necessarily make that power although it is nice to just pull atmospheric pressure direct into each chamber with extremely short runners to compliment that high end power.
If you want to build a streetable NA KA it will cost about $5000 in parts and build, it will still use a half weighted crank, and only achieve about 250CHP at 5900RPM with mildly aggressive cams (JWT), ecu tune, and high compression pistons at 11.1:1 CR (of course pump gas @ 106 octane or better), (yeah, yeah I didn't forget the bolt on's).
I did see an earlier post that Rebello built those race trucks....... Lets clarify, those trucks are from the core truck team. The first proto type was designed by ED Pink, and NISMO (KA internals), Rebello is the artist that built the engine. No there not streetable at that CHP, and the timing is soooo far advanced you wouldn't like the gas mileage or idle either....

[chmercer]

BTW you wont ever find an dohc motor built like that because the only reason they use the sohc KAs is because that is the best motor that is allowed in that class (allowed because it came stock with carburators in some old truck). dohc never came stock with carbs so its not allowed. if scca would allow DOHC motors nobody would ever be dicking around with crappy single cams

[infinitexsound]

dohc is allowed...... daymn u ray for calling me out.... itb or single TB same diffrence... go to a event SCCA club racing event and check out the cars.... i would take pics of the engine but that wouldnt be nice...
talk about idle yeah very high idle and etc etc etc...

big vinnie is right tho that shit is expensive.... i dont know too much about the DE since we basically got it.. and my boss doesnt talk to much about it either.. but as for the sohc info is there just SEARCH.... i think sohc has the info i gave it to him....

and ray no....... new motor broken in on the dyno and practice sessions and then qualify, replace the oils.. with racing fluid.. then race... but if the motor starts acting up then we replace it over nite with a spare... DE'a are new in road racing but not in offroad... NISMO sells the parts.... i got a rough idea of how much they sell them for ... and its around 18k for just the longblock..

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by chmercer

BTW you wont ever find an dohc motor built like that because the only reason they use the sohc KAs is because that is the best motor that is allowed in that class (allowed because it came stock with carburators in some old truck). dohc never came stock with carbs so its not allowed. if scca would allow DOHC motors nobody would ever be dicking around with crappy single cams

That is all false info. Not one KA came stock with carbs on truck hardbody/frontiers (D21 series). The system used is a DPI (Dual point Fuel Injection). 1986 was the last year that carburation was used on NAPS-Z 2.4litre hardbody d21 trucks. 1986.5 was the change to DPI mostly for the purpose of smog emissions, and better use of fuel economy. Solex developed a dual manifold for carb or ITB setup onto the SOHC KA motor. The sidedraft carburation is the same set up used since the 1968 L-16 (mikuni, or weber). Tweak it of Australia sells the ITB's with injector ports so that you can bolt the ITB's up to the Solex with some minor modifying. The Solex can infact be used for the DOHC's but the flange will need to be cut and fabbed for the DOHC. Rebello can sell you the solex mani's and can fab them for DOHC if you want it (IMO you can get a lincoln electric ARC welder at Home Depot for $300 and do your own weld work).
KA's came in the 240sx before the D21 hardbody, the naps-z (it's predecessor) came in the 720/D21 trucks, and there are minor differences between the 2 engines (front, or rear sump, smaller bearings used on the crank and cap of the naps-z, naps-z also used an 8valve head instead of the KA 12valve. DOHC's are allowed in the scca, it has nothing to do with the carburation.
KA boost freaqs use naps-z pistons on SOHC KA's for high boosting.
SOHC's are still good engines if you know anything about solid lifter assembly's....

[infinitexsound]

yeah talkinn about the gt3 class... anyhow new motors are under development.. but u gotta run a SIR...aka a restrictor... if u caught some of the mid-oho runoff championships on SPEED, u probably would of saw the engines and cars running these motors.....

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by infinitexsound

yeah talkinn about the gt3 class... anyhow new motors are under development.. but u gotta run a SIR...aka a restrictor... if u caught some of the mid-oho runoff championships on SPEED, u probably would of saw the engines and cars running these motors.....

You talking about the 3 S13 coupes?

[Sean1978]

so, there aren't any high powered NA KA's except exotic race built engines that use a pretty much custom bottom end? no such thing as a 200WHP NA KA that uses a standard bottom end?

[chmercer]

my bad, thats what i had heard from my scca friend.

haha, na ka sucks, so slow, so slow.

[chmercer]

Originally Posted by Sean1978

so, there aren't any high powered NA KA's except exotic race built engines that use a pretty much custom bottom end? no such thing as a 200WHP NA KA that uses a standard bottom end?

stock bottom end deffinitley not. maybe with nitrous

[sideview_180sx]

I have the July 2005 issue of over rev magazine. On an apparent 60-shot of a wet nitrous system. The sohc KA they used put down 211hp/4000rpm and 286Tq/3800rpm. When in doubt use nitrous! Then again, this isn't daily driven hp either. There are reasons that smoe engines just aren't as developed as others. More often then not, it's cost associated with bringing out the hp people want, and the likelyhood that it would be reliable. For example the mazda6 that race in speed TC have engines that are more overly built, just to make 270hp to compete with the TSXs and 3-series in that class. They had to bend their own rules in order to make it competetive. You could think of the KA in regards when comparing it to honda/toyota/bmw 4-cyl engines. Simply put they are not comparable.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by sideview_180sx

I have the July 2005 issue of over rev magazine. On an apparent 60-shot of a wet nitrous system. The sohc KA they used put down 211hp/4000rpm and 286Tq/3800rpm. When in doubt use nitrous!

You are talking about PNG's ride, it also uses an automatic and not a stick shift.....

[RBS14]

I know for a fact that the 300+ hp n/a DOHC ka's are real because I have talked with the builder of them. The ones for the Baja trucks. Rebello builds them. They "redline" at 8500rpms but see 11.5k rpms when the trucks are in the air some times. Don't waste your time trying to build something like that, you'll never get there. They have nearly unlimited funds, and more importantly (something severely lacking here), knowledge.