Health Care

[HalveBlue]

Should universal health care coverage be a human right?

[BustedS13]

it should be an option for law-abiding citizens, at least

[S14_Kouki]

I think the should be some kinda health care system to help us all.

[BustedS13]

i plan to turn 100 years old and then become a robobrain
*zap zap zap* you in the wasteland, motherfucker

[NINJASPY]

NO, do you want to get taxed 40% or more of your income? ask a Canadian.

I'd rather keep myself healthy and spend the money on toys.

Health care in the US is/has/will be overpriced when compared to ANY other country.

I got stitches once....went to the hospital(kaiser) they did not want to discuss prices. I told them I was poor. They wanted 200-300 per stich, I left that hospital, made some calls to a dermatoligist(sp) friend and got them for free. 8stitches....

Hospital then mailed me a bill for 800 bucks because they put me in a hospital gown and gave me a tag on my wrist.

I was extremely sick in china. Got lots of pills and a IV bag put in me, stayed there for 1/2 a day. Bill was about 25 US dollars for everything.

Universal health care?? they are called free clinics.

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

Should universal health care coverage be a human right?

is this about the US, or the world in general?

[Matej]

Originally Posted by NINJASPY

NO, do you want to get taxed 40% or more of your income? ask a Canadian.

You cannot judge public health care as a system just by one country that employs it.
That is like saying democracy sucks after only observing Jamaica.

Look at countries that have the highest standards of living/happiest population, such as Sweden. Obviously those governments must be doing something right, we should study what kind of systems they use.

[NINJASPY]

Its not going to happen in the US. We cant afford our military and health care.

Yes its should be a human right to live your life to the fullest.
No I don't want to pay for it.

[BustedS13]

Originally Posted by Matej

Look at countries that have the highest standards of living/happiest population, such as Sweden. Obviously those governments must be doing something right, we should study what kind of systems they use.

of course, by that logic, every nation aspiring to rock out with their cocks out should study us.

[zenki.life]

Originally Posted by NINJASPY

Its not going to happen in the US. We cant afford our military and health care.

Yes its should be a human right to live your life to the fullest.
No I don't want to pay for it.

yea its gonna be one or the other. we like to fight other countries to much then spend more money on top of that to build them back up in our image.

oh well even though the bill passed the House of Reps it was DOA in the senate lol. im not worried to much

[S14_Kouki]

Originally Posted by NINJASPY

I'd rather keep myself healthy and spend the money on toys.

You dont plan on cutting yourself or braking a arm or getting in a bad car crash.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

universal health care coverage

There are many debates in Congress and the health care industry about what this term means.

Each stakeholder (insurance carrier, Congress, physicians, the public) has a different definition for "universal" coverage.

Most of what is currently going on is useless because people are talking about different things and are just screaming at each other without realising that they're talking about different definitions of the word.

[HalveBlue]

I purposely left the question vague.

I wanted to see what peoples' ideas were in reference to the term "universal health care".

Obviously, this is a very complex subject.

For the sake of this discussion, let me define the question a little more thoroughly.


Should any individual, regardless of financial means, social standing, or health standing be entitled to free, first-class health care?

Why or why not?

[SochBAT]

I think the US should give free healthcare. The institution is applied and will allow low-income families SOMETHING as opposed to nothing. This nation is built with a reliance on the bottom line.

Who's going to flip your burgers if they're sick as shit?

But in all honestly, its needed. It helps level the playing field, and allow the lower class a CHANCE to rise in ranks, saving tons of money from health issues. The rich can still pay high-dollar for their "better" health care.

Funny that people say slanderous shit about this topic and how "it will ruin the healthcare industry!"

No, it will not. Just like every other public option, there are R&Gs, and especially in the medical field, a industry STANDARD. The private sector will still flourish because people can still pay for their own shit if they wanted to. The care given will be standardized and, again, if you want "better" care, you can pay for it.

As for public healthcare ruining shit, has public transportation ruined dealership/car sales? Have public libraries ruined book publishing/bookstores? Have public restrooms ruined private restrooms?

FUCK NO.

[Brian]

My gf worked in the Hospital down here for a while and I can say, there seems to be a lot of BULLSHIT there. People abuse the system way too much.

[Phlip]

Originally Posted by Soooshi

I think the US should give free healthcare. The institution is applied and will allow low-income families SOMETHING as opposed to nothing. This nation is built with a reliance on the bottom line.

Who's going to flip your burgers if they're sick as shit?

But in all honestly, its needed. It helps level the playing field, and allow the lower class a CHANCE to rise in ranks, saving tons of money from health issues. The rich can still pay high-dollar for their "better" health care.

Funny that people say slanderous shit about this topic and how "it will ruin the healthcare industry!"

No, it will not. Just like every other public option, there are R&Gs, and especially in the medical field, a industry STANDARD. The private sector will still flourish because people can still pay for their own shit if they wanted to. The care given will be standardized and, again, if you want "better" care, you can pay for it.

As for public healthcare ruining shit, has public transportation ruined dealership/car sales? Have public libraries ruined book publishing/bookstores? Have public restrooms ruined private restrooms?

FUCK NO.

Holy hell, Cheat.
You said a large amount of what I was preparing to, along with a couple of points of comparison even I had not thought of.
Good show!

[SochBAT]

^ Agreed.

95% of my nursing/emt/medical field friends agree and all push for public option.

I'm sure doctors do not.

work 4 days a week, disrespect women, acquire currency.

[SochBAT]

You know whats funny too? This was discussed WAYY before in regards to all the displaced vets out on the streets.

Ever wonder why there are so many mentally unstable vets on the streets? Gov closed down SHIT-TONS of mental wards, most housing Viet vets. They didn't come home to a warm welcome at all, more often, the kind of welcome you'd give a friend that just F*d your sister. Many are still unfit for society, but Gov wouldn't do a thing about it.

I've been marinating on the idea that Govs should allow the reopening of dealership grounds not as carlots, but as shelters for those who need it. Who's known anyone that has lost their home? Who's ever gotten to know a homeless? How hard is it to get back on your feet?

All those shut down lots could be put to GREAT use. The land owners would be able to be given a tax break/cut based on the number of occupants housed, it generates a few hundred more jobs (janitor, on-site medical assistance, landlord) worldwide. May seem small, but the numbers add up.

Might write a letter to local gov. to push for that.

[Phlip]

Originally Posted by Soooshi

^ Agreed.

95% of my nursing/emt/medical field friends agree and all push for public option.

I'm sure doctors do not.

work 4 days a week, disrespect women, acquire currency.

At the end of it all, I am hoping for a major reform in the whole system too.
It seems that it is rife with incompetence and seems to be purposely positioned to confuse the shit out of the patient/customer, who will wind up financially responsible/ruined by the whole shit in the end, more often than not.
I say this speaking from the position where I speak to nurses and facilities every day in that I work for one of the major labs. It seems that they spin a wheel in these doctors' offices, containing the names of the most inarticulate, uninformed, ignorant or English-challenged individual working in the office, then hand them a phone and say "here, call [company] and ask for help with this," extra points if that person is still on their first day with the practice.
One would think that with the collective lives, wellbeing and financial health of the constituency on the line here, there would be better standards kept on who and who cannot do what in a medical practice, but the mishandling of things that fall to the responsibility of the average patient, who is more often than not NOT at fault for the fuckups that will cost them up to tens of thousands of dollars, with little to no retribution to those who are at fault is angering. Why there is nothing in place to make sure this bullshit is not taking place is even MORE angering. I am pretty sure that the money saved on a PROPER restructuring might help to ease the blow of the cost of reform, but there again, what do I know?

Originally Posted by Soooshi

You know whats funny too? This was discussed WAYY before in regards to all the displaced vets out on the streets.

Ever wonder why there are so many mentally unstable vets on the streets? Gov closed down SHIT-TONS of mental wards, most housing Viet vets. They didn't come home to a warm welcome at all, more often, the kind of welcome you'd give a friend that just F*d your sister. Many are still unfit for society, but Gov wouldn't do a thing about it.

I've been marinating on the idea that Govs should allow the reopening of dealership grounds not as carlots, but as shelters for those who need it. Who's known anyone that has lost their home? Who's ever gotten to know a homeless? How hard is it to get back on your feet?

All those shut down lots could be put to GREAT use. The land owners would be able to be given a tax break/cut based on the number of occupants housed, it generates a few hundred more jobs (janitor, on-site medical assistance, landlord) worldwide. May seem small, but the numbers add up.

Might write a letter to local gov. to push for that.

I don't know anyone who has lost their homes, but I do know a Vietnam Vet who lives to this day with PTSD. My moms' uncle (granny's youngest brother). He is otherwise a cool as hell and old dude, and is generally in good health, other than problematic drinking which he is working on after it landed him a couple stretches in jail.
Luckily great-granny sold him the house for a dollar before she died (easy way of transfer of ownership without bullshit tax confusion) back in 91 or he might be in deeper shit, albeit it up here with us or with one of his sons out in the eastern part of the state and VA.

[SochBAT]

I've always liked the thought of working for the community.

Communal effort, communal gain.

I agree with you PhlipTop.

[Brian]

There needs to be people who are willing to work for it though, no?

[RJF]

Where is the Constitution does it say that health care is a right?

Government controlled health care is nothing but the government taking more control of our lives. If they pass this legislation, government will control what you eat, what you drink, what you drive, what you can smoke, what you can do...period, because everything is health-related.

[HalveBlue]

Originally Posted by RJF

Where is the Constitution does it say that health care is a right?

Of course the Constitution doesn't mention anything about health care. The concept didn't exist at the time the founders wrote the Constitution.

The first President of the United States, George Washington, died as a result of blood-letting - a common "medical" procedure at the time - after contracting pneumonia and laryngitis.

Washington's famed wooden teeth (which were actually made out of a combination of ivory and horse teeth) were fitted due the fact that Washington had only a single tooth left by the time he became president.

The reason?

Washington lost most of his teeth due to mercury oxide (!!!), which was used as a treatment for malaria and small pox.

Penicillin, blood transfusions, x-rays, pacemakers, DNA research - all the things we think of when it comes to health care - were all concepts invented or discovered well after the constitution was written.

Therefore, the argument that if the founders had intended for health care to be a right it would be in the Constitution, is a logical fallacy.

Besides, as wise as the founders were, they didn't get it right all the time.

The 3/5 compromise ring a bell?

Government controlled health care is nothing but the government taking more control of our lives. If they pass this legislation, government will control what you eat, what you drink, what you drive, what you can smoke, what you can do...period, because everything is health-related.

That, again, is a logical trap.

Our political system revolves around the concept of "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

The "government" can't govern without the consent of the people, be it tacit or explicit.

Tyranny can only develop as a result of public apathy. While that may very well be a real possibility, I believe that's a discussion that falls outside the scope of the debate at hand (a right to health care).

Besides, the government already regulates all the things you mentioned.

[RJF]

^^^ You evidently have never read the Constitution

[I LUV MY S13]

yeah the hospital wanted to charge me 675 for sitting me on a table, checking blood pressure, checking heart rate, and clearing me for practice back in high school...luckily i have health insurance

[HalveBlue]

Originally Posted by RJF

^^^ You evidently have never read the Constitution

Actually, I have...

But seeing how your one sentence doesn't address any of the points I made I'm going to assume that you concede in this debate.

[Matej]

Originally Posted by RJF

Government controlled health care is nothing but the government taking more control of our lives. If they pass this legislation, government will control what you eat, what you drink, what you drive, what you can smoke, what you can do...period, because everything is health-related.

How come all of the countries ranked above the US provide free health care, and are still more democratic?

[ronmcdon]

^^^

That's meaningless if you don't provide the specifics as to how the scores are calculated.
It might also give it some credibility if you could list the actual source.

What I'd like to know is the actual 'per capita' dollar amount spent on health-care, per country.
I heard recently from NPR (National Public Radio) that the USA has one of the highest 'per capita' dollar amount spent on health-care already.

Providing free health care is one thing,
actual health care satisfaction/success can be another matter entirely.

[Phlip]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

Providing free health care is one thing,
actual health care satisfaction/success can be another matter entirely.

That was my major concern I spoke to earlier.
Speaking from the position in which I currently work, I know that satisfaction and actual service to the customer (patient) is SEVERELY lacking. Serious talk, the whole system is so terribly fucked. It seems that the idea is to most efficiently frustrate, then fuck over the monetarily responsible party, with ZERO concern in actually fixing what ails them, so long as money is made on appearing to treat it.

[Matej]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

^^^

That's meaningless if you don't provide the specifics as to how the scores are calculated.
It might also give it some credibility if you could list the actual source.

Just look up 'most democratic countries,' or something along those lines. The list is always similar, no matter for what year or who puts it together. Unless everyone just makes it up.

I hate the idea of paying someone thousands of dollars just because something might happen to me someday. Then when something does happen to me, I have to haggle with the insurance company, and they do not even want to cover the full cost, even though the money I have already sunk into their pockets throughout the years far exceeds the full cost of the treatment. I would much rather pay higher taxes, instead of wasting my time dealing with and paying all kinds of middlemen and third parties.
Of course when people want specialty procedures and surgeries, let them pay for that, but I think it would be nice if at least check ups and common treatments were 'free.'

That is how I feel about most forms of insurance. Required auto insurance is theft in my opinion, but that is a topic for a different day.