The Future of American Motorsports.

[tnord]

anybody that hasn't been living under a pushrod engine for the last 30 years knows that the term American Motorsports has basically been a laughing matter in the rest of the world for quite some time, and understandably so given the recent popularity of NASCAR and drag racing. but i'd say within the last 5 years there has seemed to be quite the explosion in road racing; most specifically amatuer road racing. In my opinion this is where it has to start. Kids here don't grow up driving go-karts, they grow up playing baseball, basketball, and football (at least i did). Right now the 30 and older crowd are pretty heavily involved, and some of them are bringing their kids. You need look no further than the resurgance of the SCCA, the 100+ autocross fields for Midwestern Council, the creation and success of NASA, speed-trial, track-time, and any other number of orginizations mostly dedicated to road racing for proof of this. Now i know i might just be too young (22) to be aware of these things in the past, but i get the feeling that this is a new trend (oh please don't let it become "trendy"). In order for American drivers to be able to compete with those of Germany, Brazil, England, and the like, we must get involved at an early age. Being a good racing driver is all about seat-time, and it's tough for us to make up the time we lost from 5-18yrs old, when most other drivers across the world are already getting paid to do what the rest of us gleefully empty our bank accounts for. But I digress. Getting back on track i think that there will be a trend for kids to start driving competitively at a younger and younger age over time. Hopefully this will lead to American drivers being better represented in the highest forms of motorsport; that being CART, F1, WRC, and F3000 most specifically. But I ask myself this question. Do i want American road racing to become as popular as it is in Europe? Do I want to lose a lot of the "individualism" and other such attributes that go along with being associated with motorsports in this country? Do i want to see young professional drivers on the cover of the next issue of Teen magazine? Well, even though i'll probably never see a paycheck for my newfound love, if my kid gets the opportunity to be a Formula 1 World Champion.....you're damn right i do.

EDIT: oh yeah, i would like to hear your views on this topic as well.

[AKADriver]

I hope, if I have kids, that when they get old enough to do it, I'll have the funds available to get them into a kart. Even if they never get to be the next Schumi, I'll be sharing the sport I love in the most engaging way possible. Plenty of kids get to go see the races with dad, but how many get to compete?

Of course this also depends on having a wife that's cool with it, etc. etc.... oh well, lots of things to work out there. But it's a nice thought

[adey]

I've never been a fan of drag or oval racing, I never saw the point. I have to agree there is some degree of skill required, but nothing compared (IMHO, of course) to road racing.

my first 'exposure' to any sort of fast driving was canyon carving, which is what I started on... though I'm tending more towards track events (speedtrialusa mainly) and drift days now. I think it's good that road race and autox are gaining popularity, maybe it'll rub off on daily/street driving. -_- People here just don't know how to drive!

[HippoSleek]

Nice sentiment Travis. Having been born into a family that was obsessed with going fast, I consider myself lucky to have grown up leaning toward motorsports. I was on a motorcycle for the first time at 7 and was racing by 10. My toys were slot cars (my favorite car was the John Player Special that Mario Andretti drove) and I actually owned the Indy 500 board game (Johnny Rutherford 0wn3d! ). Still, either because of the bikes or b/c of my family's fractured nature, there were no karts. And after some changes in the late 80's, no motorsports at all. I became a stunna in a pimpy VW bug until college when I was reintroduced to performance through the pocket rockets.

The first time I went to an autox w/ the WDCR, I went with a friend in the morning and was running that afternoon, at a 40 car event. Today, WDCR events are 120 cars and if you are not registered at least one-two weeks before the event, don't bother. Even in the last 1.5 years, I've seen track days go from begging for people to sign up to closing a month or more before the event. Indeed, autox and track driving seem to have become very popular hobbies for a new generation of enthusiasts.

The flip side of this, I think, is the future. At present, the country LOVES oval racing. But they love it for reasons much different than Europeans with F1 or WRC. The love it in the touring car sense. The carnage. The boldness. The power and the speed. The carnage. The same people who like tv wrestling. Europeans are the people who like soccer. There couldn't be two different crowds for two different sports. WIthout a doubt, fans ARE the future of American motorsports.

The other side of the coin, however, are drivers. I submit that US drivers are among the best in the world. Unfortunately for those of us who love road racing, our best talent flocks to NASSCAR and Indy cars that turn left, repeatedly, fast. And while I may have no love for NASSCAR, many fo those guys can flat out drive! Take a look at the world driving championships. A European contest held every fall that pits three drivers (2 auto, 1 motorcycle) from each country into a series of mixed terrain events. Wins generate points and allow the county to advance. Last year, the winning overall driver was ???Burns, Maikkinin???, but the winning country was... wait for it... the US. Granted, there were no top name F1 talents, but F3000, WRC, and touring cars were WELL represented. These results tell me that the US has some great drivers who are under-utilized by only turning left... but still making more money than any other series, perhaps F1 excluded.

As the future passes, it will be interesting to see if the legions that now flock to parking lots and race track across the country will stick to it. Will we reignite our love for the automobile and motorsports. Will we see more coverage, more events, more sponsors, and more money flowing to road racing? Will we see talent being developed as early as it is abroad? Maybe. Maybe if enough of us are involved while we are young and instill that curiosity in our kids. Maybe.

I know that whenever I settle down and spawn, I will be dragging my wife and child to the track as "Crew Chief" and "Steward." And I hope that I get lucky enough to have a child with the money, time, and intelligence to moonlight in karts. And should it be that s/he is give the opportunity to race in some type of a series that we will have developed more glamourus options that ovals.

*got distracted - don't know if this is current b/c it was written 6 hours ago...*

[DuffMan]

A lot of kids grow up into motorsports in the south.

It's just a different kind of motorsports than the rest of the world, where NASCAR is the holy grail, and making a right turn is unheard of.

[Oversteer14]

I agree that the United States is a bit flawed as far as complex racing (that involve heavy cornering) is concerned. America is somewhat quick to react and assimilate to differences when inflicted upon, therefore I'm guessing perhaps 5-10 years down the road, we will be watching Ralf Schumacher retire in Laguna Seca...or Markus Gronholm taking the WRC in Laughlin...never know. The market is reacting a lot faster to import road racing than before with the likes of Stu, Super Street and Speed Vision presenting more exciting forms of racing to the American public. Not only that, but it also brings up possibilities of Americans racing with these Europeans. Already Video Option has come to the US to tape an event, this is a pretty good start in terms of formulating new types of organized racing in America rivaling NASCAR, Indy, NHRA etc...

Touge is not an organized form of racing, but cheap mods is quite common to be found up there. When you say "we" concerning touge, you're talking about A LOT of people...including drivers from Japan, this is how Keiichi got his start with TRD. Even after he flew is CP110 over a cliff, he still pursued and managed to gain his knowledge. I dont know about most of you, but I'm not wealthy, and when stuff breaks, WHATEVER WORKS WILL DO, up to a limit...this doesn't mean if I break my shift stick I'm just gonna take a broom-stick and stick it into the tranny. Touge has taught me a lot about mechanics and motorsports as far as my car is concerned. If only people think with an open-mind, **** would be a lot easier to understand.

Recently I think touge has been placed with a bad reputation...inexperienced people start coming up with an attitude, push themselves to a limit without knowing, and end up flying off cliffs/walls. What does this do? It kills the atmosphere and fun. I'm sick and tired of using a winch more often than my car up there (which is the main reason I stopped for a while). I've learned a lot from touge though, I never push myself to the limit when I first started out. I've crashed as well, but it taught me a lesson which I just got comfortable with. Touge is a place where people share modifications, experiences, and straight out talk to each other about anything going on. Lately, "superior groups" have been formed, people start talking trash, and the pride of being an elder up there has grown. This is how it is everywhere, but since we're in America it shouldn't be a surprise anyways. America has the potential and the talent to explore and establish new types of racing, I'm just waiting. For now, speed channel will do

[tnord]

amongst the dozens of other comments and questions regarding that post........the biggest one that comes to mind is......

What in the world does Super Street have to do with motorsports, much less ROAD RACING? along the same lines, how are the option vids involved? i've never seen one, but i have a pretty damn good idea what they are from the comments people make about them.

[Oversteer14]

tnord...

Super Street has been a key factor to increasing popularity to Road Racing here in Southern California, they have written numerous articles on SpeedTrialUSA, and many JGTC events as well, to a more technical note, Sport Compact Car has attributed to JGTC in a wider manner than Super Street.

Option Video is a big mainstream motorsports video in Japan, for them to come here to the US is a good start meaning they're noticing the growth of potential in America therefore they may consider hosting more events. This would mean more people would be influenced.

Perhaps you should come down to Southern California for a while, it seems like a lot of things I'm saying is hard for you to understand or agree with. I do not know where you're from, but the reason for all this confusion is probably from a different environment. If not then I'd appreciate it if you comment with some common courtesy.

[tnord]

i suppose i can't argue about Super Sucks involvement in track activities down in socal, but i can say that if that's the only place they have any kind of significant influence, then their support is merely a drop in the bucket. especially when you consider that they are drawing in "drivers" from a small area of the country, and from a very small age group on top of that. the percentage of people that attend events because they saw it in Super Street are probably less than 1% of the total number of participants across the country. also, the super street crowd's level of dedication and long term commitment is yet to be proven. i would venture to say it is just a passing fad for them.

what exactly is on these option vids? mostly people sliding around sideways right?

also.......if you want to discuss assumptions, i think that's a rather large ASSumption on your part to claim the significant role of option vids essentially feeding drivers to amatuer and professional series.

if you're including "drift competitions" into the road racing category, please don't.

your comment about my "issues" stemming from geographical location i think have nothing to do with it. i'm from Minnesota, and i think i'm very similar to racers from coast to coast.....just ask the others on this forum, and any other if you wish.......a racing driver is a racing driver.

[Oversteer14]

option vids essentially feeding drivers to amatuer and professional series.

I never said that homeboy.

Calm down dude, you might hurt youself.

[tnord]

"Option Video is a big mainstream motorsports video in Japan, "

you're right, you didn't say those words exactly......but by stating that it's a MAINSTREAM motorsports video in japan is almost equivilant to saying that the Speed Channel is a mainstream motorsports media outlet in the US.

if that's your biggest gripe with my post.......i rest my case.

[HippoSleek]

do people on VW or BMW boards think that the center of motorsports world is Germany? Not that Schumi and DTM series don't make a good argument for that, but the JDM fever around here is getting to me.

1) F1 used to be on network TV here and ESPN used to cover rally. That it has been shifted to Speed is a step down. American motorsports is growing relatively - but is still less prominant that it was 20 years ago.

2) Stopid Street and Rice Compact Car reach much smaller audiences than C&D, R&T, and other mags that reach subscribers of all classes and ages across the US. Those larger publications already cover global motorsports (although giving less coverage to local events such as Aussie V8's and JGTC). I wouldn't count on SS and SCC coverage of the JGTC to usher in a new era of motorsports in the US.

3) Option videos have as much to do with motorsports as Max Power videos. They are fun for kids to watch - but not particularly likely to spark a motorsports revolution. I can buy Option at my local impirzznort 2nr shop - or real race videos where I buy my safety equipment or at the track pro-shop. Option video does not represent the pinnacle of motorsports achievement. Some might consider it nothing but Hi Rev Tuners w/ a need for dubbing. SVWC, CART, IMSA, or ALMS will not be benefitted by Option.

4) Touge? YOU MUST BE FVCKING KIDDING ME! We were having a serious discussion about the future of organized motorsports and you bring up a bunch of kids in the mountans of socal driving their unsafe street cars down the side of a mountain? That is barely a step above TFAF. Is that your idea of the future of American motorsports? Vinyl clad "silvias" doriftoing down the side of a mountain. GOD HELP US ALL!!! So do you also think that the local stip-mall street races are the future of NHRA?

If you people are the future of motorsports in the US - and such excellent drivers, why don't you join the pro circuits and make some money? I'm sure dirving an open wheel car in CART of a GT car in the WC series would be no problem - I mean - if that is where the future of AMerican motorsports is coming from.

The problem is that unorganized mayhem from a bunch of kids in the mountains has nothing to do with what happens or who wins in international level motorsports. I don't recall hearing about the kid from the mountains who took over F1. It is the kid who came up in karts, then saloons, then sportscars, then f3000, etc. Do a reality check - if your touge Kr3w were the great talents, don't you think someone would have cashed in on it? And I dont' want to hear about one guy from Japan either. The exception does not a rule make.

I know there there are a great number of excellent drivers who come out of So Cal - but most I know of rose through karts, IT, etc. to get a paid ride. Believe it or not, however, the world of motorsports does not revolve around So Cal, Japan, or the JGTC. The world of motorsports is firmly anchored in Europe. F1. FIA Sportscars. F3000. WRC. The best drivers in the world aspire to those series, be they Aussie, Japanese, French, or American. Until touge drivers make it there, don't claim that that is the global model for sucess in motorsports. To date, the probable best driver we sent over was from Pennsylvania (and he didn't start out carving canyons, yo).

Sorry to be so cranky, but I get so sick of people here sucking JDM d!ck every chance they get. Assert the supremecy of touge over the path that 90% of world class drivers have taken is just dumb. That is a fad for people that don't want to invest the time and effort to really go racing.

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by HippoSleek
4) Touge? YOU MUST BE FVCKING KIDDING ME! We were having a serious discussion about the future of organized motorsports and you bring up a bunch of kids in the mountans of socal driving their unsafe street cars down the side of a mountain? That is barely a step above TFAF. Is that your idea of the future of American motorsports? Vinyl clad "silvias" doriftoing down the side of a mountain. GOD HELP US ALL!!! So do you also think that the local stip-mall street races are the future of NHRA?

i understand your point, but touge does have a lot of moronic people but there are also a lot of people who have a brain. now touge may be brainless you say but it does spark more interest. i know adey personally and he would have never been on the track w/o his grip touge stuff. and he's pretty damn fast too (on the track and mountains).

as far as people in front of the mall, actually many drag racers who are proffessionals did get their start street racing. not everyone can afford a drag car test it out on the drag strip and say "no this isnt for me". its a stepping stone by using the mountains or street to learn more. YES it is not safe. YES it is illegal, but how else can you find out if its what you want to do if you've never done it?

not everyone can afford to go to a track or auto x (even though autox is very inexpensive)

anyways.
also the people who usually TRY to drift in the mountains crash their car. i've heard of it so manytimes. the people who actually drift there car have been doing it for 3 - xx years.

most peole grip but too many ricers. i dont go to that stuff anymore. not worth the risk.

[Oversteer14]

4) Touge? YOU MUST BE FVCKING KIDDING ME! We were having a serious discussion about the future of organized motorsports and you bring up a bunch of kids in the mountans of socal driving their unsafe street cars down the side of a mountain? That is barely a step above TFAF. Is that your idea of the future of American motorsports? Vinyl clad "silvias" doriftoing down the side of a mountain. GOD HELP US ALL!!! So do you also think that the local stip-mall street races are the future of NHRA?

You guys obviously never hit this event up. Before there were any organized road race events that attained popularity, this was the alternative, and still is. If it weren't for the guys up here, we wouldn't have as many road racing events. That's just what I said with Option Video. I'm not saying they're all mighty and drift this drift that, I'm saying that it takes many key factors to get road racing popular, and it takes time. I do not agree with touge being an ironic thing, because honestly.....I've met people with more knowledge up there than a lot of the people in this thread, why? Those guys have participated in road race events for a long time and are always talking about it.

So do you also think that the local stip-mall street races are the future of NHRA?

Sorry, but this was the start of the NHRA back in the 1930's. Except it wasn't the local strip-mall, it was anywhere a straightaway existed.

[HippoSleek]

road racing is not simply going fast on roads - I think that is the fundamental point you don't accept. You mistake being involved with road racing with breaking the posted speed limit on a road.

1) The oldest road racing events in the US were not in CA or in the mountains. Organized racing was in place before CA had half the population of NYC. Your so cal touge scene is and has historically been a very small isolated peice of American motorsports.

2) Do you disagree that in the US, there are more people racing with organized sanctioning bodies such as SCCA, NASA, MWCCA, BMWCCA, etc. than "touge?" (If you disagree, I suggest you expand your mind beyond the current "scene" in so cal). Now, given that, which is more likely to impact American motorsports - tens of thousands nationwide or some guys in the hills above LA?

3) If you belive that average people in the touge scene know more than the average licensed racer, you are mistaken. Sadly, your comments and myopic understanding of motorsports, seem typical for that crowd. While there may be a few standouts in your camp, the standouts in SCCA, CART, NASA, NASSCAR, etc. are WORLD CLASS standouts. Not standouts compared to people who are currently taking auto shop.

4) I will agree that there may be some talented drivers up in them thar hills. But that doesn't detract from my statement that these drivers are a) acting illegally; b) not doing anything beneficial for the future of American motorsports; c) the exception, not the rule; and d) not taking American motorsports by storm.

5) Do you think you helped your case by demonstrating that touge is more like American motorsports circa 1930 than its future? Doesn't that just show how disorganized it is and how far from the mainstream and future it really is? What you've pointed out is that street racing was the HISTORY of American motorsports - not the FUTURE.

Thanks for playing

[Dousan_PG]

hipposleek, i know what you mean and i DO AGREE. my point was that for a lot of people, touge street racing etc are a STEPPING STONE/STARTING point for people's interst. i didnt want to sound like everyone who does it goes on. no of course not, im not saying its the future of america

you are so obecessed and close minded ANYTIME someone mentions touge or drift its becoming ridiculous. yeah i know you dont like them, and that's cool w/ me. but my point is that its a spark of interest--what gets someone going the first time and the heart beating and adrenaline rushing.

that feeling leads to an interest in a certain part of motorsports, wether it means nascar, drag, auto-x or road (track) racing or rally. which in a way, is the FUTURE of motorsports. you dont get to the future w/o the present or the past. past for me would be like 4 months when i first went to the mountains. since then im on the track nearly 3 times a month..the future, who knows what i'll try and accomplish. i think this is the case for MANY aspiring car nuts.

for some people it might watching NASCAR-sparks interest. or rally, sparks interest. or getting in your car and dragging it down the street. maybe those will lead to future tiem at the track, scca etc etc etc.

THAT is the future of motorsports.

i never said so cali was the place peole get started. the # of people who actually go touge is SO SMALL and most are never going to step on atrack. i never EVER said that in my post!

i agree w/ your points 100%.

[HippoSleek]

sorry dousan - I didn't address your points b/c I generally agree w/ what you said. I agree that some people will start in that manner and eventually wind up taking it to the next step. I know a few people who got their SCCA SpeedFreakz memberships w/ their first car, but they are a vast minority. There are many gateway "drugs" that lead to real racing...

My emphasis here is based on a few premises. First, that international excellence in motorsports will not happen with drivers who don't compete in any way until they are 16. If a very naturally talented driver isn't exposed until he's 16, he's at a HUGE disadvantage in professional motorsports - especially in the most competitive arenas. While there are exceptions, most professional, paid drivers began in carts and worked their way up. They have more seat time by 16 than I'll ever have.

The second premise is that driving fast is nothing like actually racing. Personally, I am still at the school stage as well, but it takes nothing more than a ride along w/ an instructor who races in an open passing group to show me that racing is different. Never mind the volumes of literature availabe and separate training that racers undergo, compared to the average track driver. I've seen these same fast driving steet racers show at sanctioned events. If I had a dollar for every ricer who showed up at an autox - ONCE - I would be a richer man. Generally, driving a modified ITR and getting your a$$ kicked by someone in a stock Miata or Neon keeps them disinterested. Reality hurts. Similarly, I could count the number of these guys I've seen at the track on one hand.

The final premise is an admitted disgust with the "scene." I love motorsports. But I love all types of racing and I rate them according to the level of skill, quality of cars, and - most importantly - their worldwide attention. F1 wins. Period. Behind that are other series that draw talent from all over the world to compete. CART has significantly more international drivers than JGTC. Which leads to the premise that, even though I drive a Japanese car, I refuse to idolize all things Japanese. I give credit where it is due, but I will not pretend for a minute that canyon carvers are more imporant to motorsports that people racing at tracks. As with drift - if that is what makes you happy, fine, but don't attempt to convince me that it is the fastest way, best training ground, future of American motorsports, etc.

So I hear you and, as I said, I accept that street driving can be a gateway - but once you go though, there is a whole different world there. And it is that world that we were discussing above. But to say that the gateway is the pinnacle, I refuse to accept.

[Dousan_PG]

hipposleek.
i agree w/ you 100%
haha..



im not for "the scene" too...i never go touge i do do the drift and all the so cali events (at track near 3 times a month) but also working on my lines and such for grip. anywyas, i want to get into so much more. but the tire, alignment and mod fund gets smaller every event...adds up FAST. drift is DEFINATLY my fav, but as soon as the current popularity drops i'll end up on grip and road race event type stuff as well. like to get into auto-x but i fear my modifications are going to put me in a ridiculously high class. oh well, have to work harder then i guess, right? ^_^

As with drift - if that is what makes you happy, fine, but don't attempt to convince me that it is the fastest way, best training ground, future of American motorsports, etc.

yeah its definately NOT NOT NOT the fastest. but one could argue it is one of the funnest ways haha..
definately NOT THE FUTURE OF USA MOTORSPORTS
its a fad that will be gone soon enough.

[tnord]

1) i think Motorsports Section should have it's own moderator.
2) i think people wanting to participate in Motorsports section should have to apply to be able to post.

"I do not agree with touge being an ironic thing, because honestly.....I've met people with more knowledge up there than a lot of the people in this thread, why? Those guys have participated in road race events for a long time and are always talking about it. "

more knowledge about what? the latest american-suck JDM c0ck trend? and considering you don't know the people in this thread, or your "touge" idols, that's a pretty bold statement.

those guys as in who? i want names, where they compete, and a link to their results for the past 2 seasons. i'm calling BS on this.


and this whole thing about people not being able to afford it has got to stop. this is the worst effing excuse of all time. it costs about $10 to get on at the dragstrip, and about $25 for a full day of auto-x, if you can afford to own a car........YOU CAN ****ING AFFORD TO PARTICIPATE LEGALLY. This reminds me of the kids in high school that participated in work study because normal school just "wasn't for them."

touge is a joke. saying that legitmate skills and experience are acquired during these "events" is far worse than saying the pick-up basketball i play 4x a week will lead me to an NBA deal. the best lesson learned during touge is probably when you crash your car doing stupid crap.

people automatically dismiss you touge and drifter people as inferior drivers with ample reason........stereotypes just don't make themselves up ya know.

[DSC]

Thread about the future of motorsports?

I think we all agree that the club racing scene is on the upswing...but is American motorsports as in nationwide recognition really going up?

Are the club racers the future? Us, here, just starting out in our late teens to mid-20's? How many winning SM racers move up to gt1 or prototypes or f3000?
From what I've seen, as far as worldwide/nationwide recognition, the future of motorsports will be the kids in karts like always.
Like mark and others have said, when you don't start until your 16, no matter how much raw talent you have, you will be outclassed.

We do auto-x, track days, eventually buy a $10,000+ race car that we get to drive in maybe 10-15 events a year and then what? Maybe you can buy your way up the professional latter (with expensive car/mods/track time) but for the average joe car nut...it seems to stop here. I may be wrong, but this is just what I've seen in my limited time in the motorsports scene.


As for illegal racing being a stepping stone...I'm going to have to agree, but only to a point. You have to have some sort of rush or something driving your car to spark enough interest enough to go to an event...cool races on TV won't be enough for most people. But after some real experiences, the illegal stuff seems slow, dissatisfying, and more dangerous.
Then again, there are different degrees of stupidity that come with illegal stepping stones. Dragging your buddy up to 60mph doesn't seem very dangerous. High speed driving on the mountains seems extremely dangerous. I've driven "the mountain passes" and you really can't see what’s coming at all. If there is a stopped car around the corner or a deer...or what happens when you spin and hit the inside wall and some guy comes around with his family on a road trip and rams your ass. Inital-d should have taught the mountain drivers that much
I think we've all done some spirited driving though, just any type of automotive masturbation before you can get on track again...I have that favorite exit ramp, I’m sure most guys do. You can learn a lot about car control on the street before ever getting on the track...but there are smart (turn that allows full view of what is ahead) and dumb (blind turns with cliffs and drop-offs) ways of doing dumb and likely illegal street driving.

Then again, most of the guys out doing the illegal stuff are just “stunnas” who will never get into official motorsports in any way.

[Dousan_PG]

i agree w/ DSC
i used to do some stupid street/mountain stuff
after i set foot and drove the track. i'm a addict. track whore. i spend most my paycheck buying tires and tuning the car and parts and track fees (fees run 70-150+). i go 2-3 time a month. the street stuff was a stepping stone.

still do some of that stupid street stuff, but i save it for the track. its safer and funner.

the future of motorsports is the children! its all about the children! what about the children!

another reason why touge and drifters are "inferior drivers" is because the popularity is new and its growing. now compare that with professional drifters and such and its another story. you'd respect them of course (ex. Keiichi, taniguchi, orido..etc etc). they do both, professionally or for fun. USA wise, yes most suck. there's no doubt about that.

[DSC]

I figure i'll add...a big reason togue and drift guys are inferior drivers is because of the lack of professional instruction. It's impossilbe to figure it all out on your own just through seat time...

[Oversteer14]

You guys have totally this totally small opinion over the limit. Don't take this topic personally, it's only cars, and second of all, if you haven't run touge, don't compare or assume anything with it at all. Many people I've met have had professional instruction, the only reason we're up there is either tracks are closed, or the next road-race event is extremely far away. Right now the touge scene sucks, but back then it was pretty good. Right now however, we've got all those ricers, fast and teh furious, super-street-lovers up there crashing left and right...basically totally killing everything. The only reason they're up there is due to the fad....the "OMG it's JDM" or "I want to be like Takumi" trend. I've refrained from going lately..it really went down the hole, BUT I still however stand by my opinion. BTW: I'm not holding touge over road-racing, I'm not saying it's the in-thing and you guys should do it to be "cool" ok?

I'm not endorsing it. You people are taking this totally wrong. All I'm saying is that it's a good factor that raises interest in road racing from all those ricers...because if you think of it, those ricers/kids MIGHT be the future (not very comfortable saying that 'cuz I've seen pretty horrible people there). I was referring more to the market rather than the "soul-love" of motorsports. Like I said, you never know. GOes by steps. It's not a joke once you see some of the talent and skill displayed up there (rare nowadays, but common back then). Even Dave Coleman has been up there a few times testing out his WRX.

Recently it's been better, Buttonwillow and Willow Springs have been used by SpeedTrial, so many guys have been learning from there due to the professional instructors offering in-cockpit training sessions at every event. BUT, touge is fun, so we go there often.

Tnord, if you'd like I can give you these sites to look at.

www.sileightymania.com
www.nadine180.com
www.davescholz.com
(You can go to more sites on their links page).

Please do not label these people. They're very nice and have had lots of experience in road racing. Well not A LOT, but enough. For now though, I do hope road-racing increases so opportunities increase as well, but as everything else, it'd go step by step.

If there is a stopped car around the corner or a deer...or what happens when you spin and hit the inside wall and some guy comes around with his family on a road trip and rams your ass. Inital-d should have taught the mountain drivers that much

Generalized information with no experience on this, people who crash up there ask questions like these all the time. It's self-explanatory.

Last post, this is very monotonous. Have fun people.

[240 2NR]

I'll make this very simple

Driving on the street is not at all like driving on the track_period. I thought I was a good driver (and in terms of street driving ability I am) but one day at the track proved I have A LOT TO LEARN. There are huge fundamental differences between driving on the street and driving on the track. The too biggest for me are the line, and being at the limit the entire time. Firstly, if you are doing either on the street, you're a huge f**king moron because neither is remotely safe. Second, you only thought you were.

I agree with most of what tnord, hippo and DSC have been saying. We don't start young enough. American racing seems like more of a hobby (lately tending on the extreme variety) and those that do end up going far tend to do it going left. I think it's changing though. Ameteur clubs are growing and while we might not be a hotbed for the best in the world, there is plenty of talent at the ametuer level which in my opion is the best kind of racing to watch. It's fun, it's cheap, and generally the egos are pretty small. Plus you get to participate. I don't think the US needs to blow up in terms of motorsports, but I do wish they would offer us more coverage than NASCAR 12 hours a day. Hell I'm getting tired of the limited Aussie V-8 series (since I've seen the same race 3 times already).

Like most of you, I'd love to get into karting with my kids.

[fodive]

I think that you guys are overlooking one thing, in general, kids and parents dont always think along the same lines, i always wanted a go-kart as a kid, wanted to race, because it looked fun. The reality is, a lot of people can't afford it, especially when you get into serious karting competitions. I coach a 5th grade basketball team for the city i live in, with that sport, you have a ball, and some shoes and you can virtually practice anywhere, basketball, baseball, soccer and to a certain degree football and hockey are A LOT more accesable to kids than go-karts, i mean, you cant just take a go-kart and practice in teh street liek you could with lots of other sports, tracks arnt widly available, and most families dont have the money for a dedicated truck or suv with a trailer for a kids go-kart, where they could just give a kid a soccer ball and tell them to play in the yard. that's why i don't think we will ever see that many US drivers competing at the world levels, because i dont believe that go-karts, and competitive racing will ever be close to as popular here as it is in europe.

with that being said, im perfectly content with it staying grassroots, fun, and cheap. Because, like stated, it's too late for all of us now but its still fun as hell.

PS: sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, and this section rocks.