is there any benefit to buyin a strut bar? - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

Powerzen2002 · 12-30-2002, 11:36 AM

I was just worndering if there is any advantages at all
to buying one of those strut tower bars? from ebay for like,
20 bucks.

Thanks!

HippoSleek · 12-30-2002, 01:05 PM

chassis rigidity is markedly improved. It isn't like new springs or a sway bar, but you will notice improved control and feel at turn in for virtually all corners. Plus, for $20-50, you can't go wrong. As for your next question: no - I don't see the reason in spending $100+ for one - Al is Al and a bar is a bar. I have the PDM bar and it provides a noticeable improvement (to me).

Outlaw240 · 12-30-2002, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HippoSleek
I don't see the reason in spending $100+ for one - Al is Al and a bar is a bar.

I would have to disagree on that...a STB is not just a STB...not all are the same... My first front STB was a Courtesy generic one, it did all right. Then I found a good deal on a set of Cusco STB's (F & R)....I didn't think there would be that big of a difference, but I did feel a considerable difference in the front when I put the Cusco on....

But, hey, my Courtesy bar was free...so I ain't knockin it....and it was better than nothing, as it did make a big difference over no bar at all.... $20 for a front STB is still not a bad way to go, as you WILL notice a good difference in flatter, more responsive turns. It will also help to eliminate a bit of body roll up front.

95twoforty · 12-30-2002, 02:08 PM

I bought one for 20 bucks off ebay and it works really well for me. Its the Bomz 45mm one, its really sturdy and is adjustable. I was suprised at the difference it made. Best 20 bucks I ever spent.

BEISSEN · 12-30-2002, 02:10 PM

Wel outlaw me disagree cus you also had a rear bar so that mkes a big difference as well.I personaly don't ee a real diferance besides wasted money and bragging rights froma 20.00-150.00+ bar.Thats is just imo.

Outlaw240 · 12-30-2002, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BEISSEN
Wel outlaw me disagree cus you also had a rear bar so that mkes a big difference as well.I personaly don't ee a real diferance besides wasted money and bragging rights froma 20.00-150.00+ bar.Thats is just imo.

Actually...I didn't install the rear bar until a few days after....had to track down some bolts, the guy I bought em from said he shipped em with them....but they werent there....so, not only do I have braggin rights...my car turns and handles better...

Oh well...just relating my experience... A $20 STB is better than no STB no matter what, so I am not knocking those bars at all.

HippoSleek · 12-30-2002, 03:21 PM

I've always been curious as to the more $ = better thing.

A couple of questions:
1) is there a difference in materials?
2) is there a difference in design?

Most STBs are copies of spendy Cusco, Greddy, or other bars. The are manufacutured with the same grade "D" or "O" stock aluminum. If the design is the same and the materials used in that design, the only potential differences are the welds used on the mounting bracket and the hardware. There really aren't any other manufacturing steps in such a simple item. Now, if the hardware and welds don't break, they are sufficient - so what is the difference?

240racer · 12-30-2002, 06:30 PM

Since all we are concerned about here is stiffness, I think if the shape of the bar and the material is the same, the welds won't make a difference. The other thing I don't like about most bars is the rod ends on the end, the allow the top of the tower to pivot, instead of holding it rigid. I would also run a bar back to the firewall to triangulate. Look at the stock bar in the Sentra SE-R and the WRX and you will see what I mean. No stupid rod ends and it goes to the firewall, plus it's a steel tube (the stiffest material in the stiffest shape) I like rod ends, but they are for pivots, not for holding things tight. In my opinion if it has rod ends then it doesn't matter how much it costs it will behave acording to the friction in the rod ends.

whateverjames · 12-30-2002, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Outlaw240
But, hey, my Courtesy bar was free...so I ain't knockin it....and it was better than nothing, as it did make a big difference over no bar at all.... $20 for a front STB is still not a bad way to go, as you WILL notice a good difference in flatter, more responsive turns. It will also help to eliminate a bit of body roll up front.

hey, that's the one you gave me.

still got it and it still works great. i didn't think there was a difference between the expsensive strut tower bars, but i guess there is actually.

*DSC* · 12-30-2002, 07:40 PM

good read on STB's

I noticed a small difference with my pdm bar up front...nothing big. I think it may feel a little tighter but certianly nothing that would (by itself) actually impove a lap time...my opinion anyway.

AKADriver · 12-30-2002, 08:20 PM

The rod ends are there for a reason.

A strut tower brace is only designed to keep the horizontal dimension between the towers fixed. Take a look at DSC's link about strut tower brace theory, draw the FBDs yourself with the moments included, comparing a solid bar to a bar with rod ends.

All that aside I'd take a bar with rod ends any day if only because of ease of temporary removal/reinstallation.

The stock Sentra SE-R bar has the "stupid rod ends":

The WRX doesn't come with one stock.

A few cars I've seen do have crimped steel tube that goes from the side of the tower to the firewall, but this design isn't used much anymore. Performance models of the early FWD Corollas (AE82 FX-16, AE92 GT-S) were big on this.

Powerzen2002 · 12-30-2002, 11:03 PM

Thanks guys! Think I will get one ... but one stupid question, how hard is installation?

240fluke · 12-31-2002, 03:21 AM

On a scale of 1 to 10, the install is like a .5. It is a really simple and straight forward install. If you are getting the bar that is not a one piece, but rather 3 pieces, then install the 2 plates first. Then lift the front of the car in the air (pre-load) and then attach the bar two the two plates. Drop the car down and you are ready to go (takes less than 10, heck 5 minutes to do the whole process).

Tim '95 SE

HippoSleek · 12-31-2002, 06:59 AM

I think the only OEM bars that attach to the firewall are on $$$$$ sports cars.

FWIW: STBs that triangulate are illegal in the lower SCCA classes (solo II stock, STS, SP - I think they're free in prepared and mod; club racing - illegal until at least GT).

Oh yeah, and the stupid rod ends are a trade off between than and a very flexible bar. Look at the honda Civic Si (EM/EK chassis) OEM bar - no stupid ends, but you can easily bend it w/ your hand.

AKADriver · 12-31-2002, 07:47 AM

Right. you lose rigidity in a few dimensions, but you gain much more in the critical dimension that you installed the bar to control.

As for factory ones that attach to the firewall...

The crimped ends don't look too tough, but there you go. AE82 Corolla FX16, a car that cost like $9000

HippoSleek · 12-31-2002, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AKADriver
The crimped ends don't look too tough, but there you go. AE82 Corolla FX16, a car that cost like $9000

triangulate - To make triangular. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000, def. no. 3)

That ain't triangular, bish. Hell, that isn't even one piece of metal! And it's a AE92, not an 82 - although I still this that's the ultimate urban gorilla. How about this:

Damb that thing's beefy!

AKADriver · 12-31-2002, 09:38 AM

nonononono! you said:

Quote:

I think the only OEM bars that attach to the firewall are on $$$$$ sports cars.

at·tach ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-tch)
v. at·tached, at·tach·ing, at·tach·es
v. tr.
To fasten, secure, or join.

And that is an AE82, but it's an aussie-spec FX-GT, not a US FX-16, my bad.

That bar owns. What's it designed to fit? No wait let me guess, a Ford fox body?

240racer · 12-31-2002, 03:23 PM

I do understand that flipping the stb out of the way to work on the car is a nice thing, so I understand that aspect. However, why don't you want the stb to take the bending moment when the strut towers flex. It would just seem stiffer to me. From the front view our car stock would look like a U with the towers on either side and the large lower engine support forming the lower part. With a "pinned" (what happens with rods ends as you know) upper link then it is a square with only two joints able to take any kind of moment. Also, aren't we worried about the towers moving forward and backward, braking, in my opinion puts more force on the towers then FWDs. I would run the bar straight across and then also to the firewall. Sorry about the missinfo on specfic models, I thought I saw the crimped steel ones on those.

Tekryder · 01-01-2003, 03:11 PM

well what about those bars seen on hondas, the ones that only bolt up to 1 strut bolt?? I know they dont have those for these cars, but what u guys think about those??

HippoSleek · 01-02-2003, 07:47 AM

Okay, I said attach there and triangulate below. You got me!

Why bother with a bar that only attaches by one bolt? Obviously, it will be able to pivot in multiple directions, which can't be good for a brace. While I haven't seen one of those and can't fully comment, it sounds like a bad idea.

240racer - not sure I really understand, but the pivot where it is on most 240 bars is not in the area that you are trying to reduce chassis flex. The bar doesn't really reduce vertical chassis flex - it is designed for reduce collapse at turn in.

BTW: Actually, that bar was designed for many cars, including Fox bodies, Camaros, and DC2 Integras. Jealous? I am.

12-30-2002, 11:36 AM	#1
Powerzen2002 Zilvia Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 225 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	is there any benefit to buyin a strut bar? I was just worndering if there is any advantages at all to buying one of those strut tower bars? from ebay for like, 20 bucks. Thanks! __________________ No Quote, No Cares, Just Drive.

12-30-2002, 01:05 PM	#2
HippoSleek Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: elsewhere Posts: 2,081 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	yes chassis rigidity is markedly improved. It isn't like new springs or a sway bar, but you will notice improved control and feel at turn in for virtually all corners. Plus, for $20-50, you can't go wrong. As for your next question: no - I don't see the reason in spending $100+ for one - Al is Al and a bar is a bar. I have the PDM bar and it provides a noticeable improvement (to me).

12-30-2002, 02:08 PM	#4
95twoforty Leaky Injector Join Date: May 2002 Location: Birch Bay, WA Age: 39 Posts: 50 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I bought one for 20 bucks off ebay and it works really well for me. Its the Bomz 45mm one, its really sturdy and is adjustable. I was suprised at the difference it made. Best 20 bucks I ever spent. __________________ 95 240sx - AEM SRI, HKS Hi-Per, Bomz front strut bar, Tokico Blues and Eibach Prokit

12-30-2002, 03:21 PM	#7
HippoSleek Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: elsewhere Posts: 2,081 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	curious I've always been curious as to the more $ = better thing. A couple of questions: 1) is there a difference in materials? 2) is there a difference in design? Most STBs are copies of spendy Cusco, Greddy, or other bars. The are manufacutured with the same grade "D" or "O" stock aluminum. If the design is the same and the materials used in that design, the only potential differences are the welds used on the mounting bracket and the hardware. There really aren't any other manufacturing steps in such a simple item. Now, if the hardware and welds don't break, they are sufficient - so what is the difference?

12-30-2002, 06:30 PM	#8
240racer Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Age: 46 Posts: 574 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Since all we are concerned about here is stiffness, I think if the shape of the bar and the material is the same, the welds won't make a difference. The other thing I don't like about most bars is the rod ends on the end, the allow the top of the tower to pivot, instead of holding it rigid. I would also run a bar back to the firewall to triangulate. Look at the stock bar in the Sentra SE-R and the WRX and you will see what I mean. No stupid rod ends and it goes to the firewall, plus it's a steel tube (the stiffest material in the stiffest shape) I like rod ends, but they are for pivots, not for holding things tight. In my opinion if it has rod ends then it doesn't matter how much it costs it will behave acording to the friction in the rod ends. __________________ Adam '89 coupe KA24DE+T 14.1 @ 104 MPH '88 Celica All-Trac turbo stock, but no more ecu codes!!

12-30-2002, 02:10 PM	#5
BEISSEN Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Woodbridge,VA Age: 42 Posts: 1,028 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Wel outlaw me disagree cus you also had a rear bar so that mkes a big difference as well.I personaly don't ee a real diferance besides wasted money and bragging rights froma 20.00-150.00+ bar.Thats is just imo.

12-30-2002, 07:40 PM	#10
DSC New Title Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: VA Posts: 3,454 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	good read on STB's I noticed a small difference with my pdm bar up front...nothing big. I think it may feel a little tighter but certianly nothing that would (by itself) actually impove a lap time...my opinion anyway. __________________

12-30-2002, 08:20 PM	#11
AKADriver Post Whore! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Springfield, VA Age: 43 Posts: 3,517 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	The rod ends are there for a reason. A strut tower brace is only designed to keep the horizontal dimension between the towers fixed. Take a look at DSC's link about strut tower brace theory, draw the FBDs yourself with the moments included, comparing a solid bar to a bar with rod ends. All that aside I'd take a bar with rod ends any day if only because of ease of temporary removal/reinstallation. The stock Sentra SE-R bar has the "stupid rod ends": The WRX doesn't come with one stock. A few cars I've seen do have crimped steel tube that goes from the side of the tower to the firewall, but this design isn't used much anymore. Performance models of the early FWD Corollas (AE82 FX-16, AE92 GT-S) were big on this.

12-30-2002, 11:03 PM	#12
Powerzen2002 Zilvia Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 225 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Thanks guys! Think I will get one ... but one stupid question, how hard is installation? __________________ No Quote, No Cares, Just Drive.

12-31-2002, 03:21 AM	#13
240fluke Zilvia Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Ramon, CA Age: 45 Posts: 185 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	On a scale of 1 to 10, the install is like a .5. It is a really simple and straight forward install. If you are getting the bar that is not a one piece, but rather 3 pieces, then install the 2 plates first. Then lift the front of the car in the air (pre-load) and then attach the bar two the two plates. Drop the car down and you are ready to go (takes less than 10, heck 5 minutes to do the whole process). Tim '95 SE Last edited by 240fluke; 12-31-2002 at 03:32 AM..

12-31-2002, 06:59 AM	#14
HippoSleek Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: elsewhere Posts: 2,081 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I think the only OEM bars that attach to the firewall are on $$$$$ sports cars. FWIW: STBs that triangulate are illegal in the lower SCCA classes (solo II stock, STS, SP - I think they're free in prepared and mod; club racing - illegal until at least GT). Oh yeah, and the stupid rod ends are a trade off between than and a very flexible bar. Look at the honda Civic Si (EM/EK chassis) OEM bar - no stupid ends, but you can easily bend it w/ your hand. Last edited by HippoSleek; 12-31-2002 at 07:02 AM..

12-31-2002, 07:47 AM	#15
AKADriver Post Whore! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Springfield, VA Age: 43 Posts: 3,517 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Right. you lose rigidity in a few dimensions, but you gain much more in the critical dimension that you installed the bar to control. As for factory ones that attach to the firewall... The crimped ends don't look too tough, but there you go. AE82 Corolla FX16, a car that cost like $9000

12-31-2002, 03:23 PM	#18
240racer Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Age: 46 Posts: 574 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I do understand that flipping the stb out of the way to work on the car is a nice thing, so I understand that aspect. However, why don't you want the stb to take the bending moment when the strut towers flex. It would just seem stiffer to me. From the front view our car stock would look like a U with the towers on either side and the large lower engine support forming the lower part. With a "pinned" (what happens with rods ends as you know) upper link then it is a square with only two joints able to take any kind of moment. Also, aren't we worried about the towers moving forward and backward, braking, in my opinion puts more force on the towers then FWDs. I would run the bar straight across and then also to the firewall. Sorry about the missinfo on specfic models, I thought I saw the crimped steel ones on those. __________________ Adam '89 coupe KA24DE+T 14.1 @ 104 MPH '88 Celica All-Trac turbo stock, but no more ecu codes!!

01-01-2003, 03:11 PM	#19
Tekryder Leaky Injector Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: SoCal 909 Age: 41 Posts: 72 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	well what about those bars seen on hondas, the ones that only bolt up to 1 strut bolt?? I know they dont have those for these cars, but what u guys think about those?? __________________ Shift_Played Out

01-02-2003, 07:47 AM	#20
HippoSleek Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: elsewhere Posts: 2,081 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Curses! If it weren't for you meddling kids... Okay, I said attach there and triangulate below. You got me! Why bother with a bar that only attaches by one bolt? Obviously, it will be able to pivot in multiple directions, which can't be good for a brace. While I haven't seen one of those and can't fully comment, it sounds like a bad idea. 240racer - not sure I really understand, but the pivot where it is on most 240 bars is not in the area that you are trying to reduce chassis flex. The bar doesn't really reduce vertical chassis flex - it is designed for reduce collapse at turn in. BTW: Actually, that bar was designed for many cars, including Fox bodies, Camaros, and DC2 Integras. Jealous? I am.