Excessive toe-in: s14 tie rods on an s13 w/ spl rod ends - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

Grandpa · 08-24-2005, 06:16 PM

I put s14 tie rods and spl's tie rod ends on my s13. I was in the process of dialing out a large amount of toe in when I bottomed out the rod ends on the rods, i.e. the threaded rod of the spherical bushing was up against the threaded portion of the tie rod. I still have 3-4 degrees of toe in. I have the correct s14 tie rod ends from spl. I have an s13 rack. The tie rods are seated fully on the rack. I don't get it. I mean, there's not a lot of things I could have screwed up installing these things. Are s14 tie rods longer than s13 ones? Do I need to shorten the s14 tie rods? Help.

Al_S14 · 08-24-2005, 06:18 PM

if your steering whell is turned while you are adjusting toe i will throw everything off and make i tlook like youre off by x# of degrees on both sides(should be proportional) . make sure it is straight.

Grandpa · 08-24-2005, 07:13 PM

It is. The steering wheel position is not the problem. The toe-in on both sides is identical.

drift into a curb · 08-24-2005, 08:18 PM

It's best to compare before installing. I don't fully comprehend your explanation, but you said you bottomed out the tie rod to the tie rod end. And it's still toe IN. So don't you need toe OUT?

OR do you mean the inner tie rods are too long and you're getting toe OUT right now and you need to get the tie rods to adjust to toe IN more.

Grandpa · 08-25-2005, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift into a curb

OR do you mean the inner tie rods are too long and you're getting toe OUT right now and you need to get the tie rods to adjust to toe IN more.

It seems like the inner tie rods are too long, so I'm getting too much toe-IN (they attach to the rear of the spindle, too much length shoves the spindle angle inward). The tie rod ends are all the way on the inner tie rods, and I still have too much toe-in.

drift into a curb · 08-25-2005, 08:29 AM

I doubt you ran into the same problem I did, but I believe mine were from a skyline and longer than 240 ones. Tein 240sx on top and Uras skyline on the bottom.

If anything, you still have the stock components? Compare the length and everything to how you UN-installed the stock piece. That should tell you the length.

MakotoS13 · 08-25-2005, 08:38 AM

my Z32 inners work fine.

spdfreek0o · 08-25-2005, 11:01 AM

Can you put the excessive toe into degrees? Or are you trying to guess where it should be? From what I understand 0-.5 degree toe-in is the range on RWD vehicles.

Grandpa · 08-25-2005, 01:56 PM

It's not 0-1 degrees, more like 5-10. It's VERY noticeable. The inner tie rods are definitely from an s14. I just figured someone might have ran this set up.

Dousan_PG · 08-25-2005, 02:22 PM

i ran s14 inners and outers on my s13
with NO problems

so i dont know what what to say to your post...cluess WITHOUT PISC
take pics
its odd..something aint right
i always change rods one side at a time, for alignment purpose and ease if somethings f'd up to put it back to what iw as before

DoriftoSlut · 08-25-2005, 02:50 PM

My guess is you have Z32 outer ends with S14 inner rods. Make it S14><S14 or Z32><Z32 and you'll be fine.

But yeah give us pics first... Or talk to Kuah, see if he could have accidently mixed up the inner/outer combination he gave you. Since the heim joint is the same of the S14 and Z32 rods, the only difference actually is the length of the SPL Parts threaded sleeve for the outer tie rod (what both the heim joint and the inner rod thread to... that peice). Swap your Z32 one out for an S14 one and you're set!

Grandpa · 08-25-2005, 03:29 PM

Alright, sorry guys. I should have taken pictures. Here's a few. Hopefully you can help me trouble shoot this. Oh, and please pardon the condition of the car. It's not finished.

Here's a couple of pictures showing the degree of toe-in. The tie rod ends are fully threaded onto the tie rods in these pictures.

Here's a couple of pictures of the inner and outer tie rods themselves with the car on the ground.

The car is on MR coilovers with new bushings throughout and ssa's suspension kit. Thanks.

JaeTea · 08-25-2005, 03:39 PM

WTF???

Thats definetly not right!

For some reason those inner tie rods look longer than they should be.

DoriftoSlut · 08-25-2005, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaeTea

WTF???

Thats definetly not right!

For some reason those inner tie rods look longer than they should be.

Yeah... those outer rods are def. not Z32 like i speculated at first. They are way shorter than my Z32 ones. The inner rods just appear to e way longer/not threaded all the way into the rack.

Grandpa · 08-25-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoriftoSlut

Yeah... those outer rods are def. not Z32 like i speculated at first. They are way shorter than my Z32 ones. The inner rods just appear to e way longer/not threaded all the way into the rack.

Yeah, they seem really long, but I know they're s14 ones. They came off my old s14. When I installed them, I set them the same length as the original s13 ones that came off, but I have since dropped the car 3"-3.5", so I was dialing out the toe that created. And, I know they're in the rack the entire way.

Kuah recommended contacting him yesterday morning, but I couldn't until I was out of class. Unfortunately, it seems like it I just missed him before his vacation. Ah well. I'll figure something out.

Worst comes to worst, I'll just cut the s14 inner tie rods. But I'll pull everything apart and recheck it before I do that. I just wanted to make sure I'm not running into something common.

MadScientist · 08-25-2005, 05:18 PM

The problem is in the Tie Rod End (outer) not the Rods (inner)... Just like in a Shifter you have a Fulcrum Point.

Fulcrum point is the point which balances the weight of the load.
(The sphereical bearing in this case.)

The Link looks to be much longer than it should be by about 1".
(compare to Kazama's)

Your are nice looking and beefy... they would be great for a purpose built Drift car... other than that not very street minded.

Peace
Drew

EDIT: Just in case that was to complex... look at it like this.
(yes I used Paint... I feel like a kid again...)

DoriftoSlut · 08-25-2005, 05:25 PM

The SPL balljoints are adjustable. You can eliminate a lot more bumpsteer than what the Kazama ends will allow you to do. But in the picture yea it looks like with them adjusted that much, they push the spindles too far out and give the car too much toe in. This is why i reccomend people get the Z32 setup. The inner rods are shorter and thus the outters are longer. More threaded area and thus adjustablity that would come in handy in this situation.

For "Grandpa" I might suggest taking the smaller spacer that is above the balloint and moving it below the balljoint (where you have the even smaller spacer). This would leave just the big reinforced spacer above the balljoint, and should bring the spindles back in and give you some toe out. I dunno if it will give you enough, but its a place to start...

Grandpa · 08-25-2005, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadScientist

The problem is in the Tie Rod End (outer) not the Rods (inner)... Just like in a Shifter you have a Fulcrum Point.

Fulcrum point is the point which balances the weight of the load.
(The sphereical bearing in this case.)

The Link looks to be much longer than it should be by about 1".
(compare to Kazama's)

Those Kazama rod ends look almost identical to the spl ones I have. I bet the small spacers are identical in size. The upper one is 1.25", which is what, .5" longer than the Kazama one? That doesn't create THAT much toe. We're talking about a huge amount. When I had the arms the same length as stock, one of the tires literally skipped when I pushed the car out of the garage. It was like, 30 degrees, or something sick.

I can always take out some of the length of the big reinforced spacer too, if this is really the problem.

Grandpa · 08-25-2005, 06:19 PM

Oh, and an even larger upper reinforced spacer was included with the spl rod ends, 1.5" in length.

And now that I'm thinking about it, I bet the extended length of z32 spl rod end nut-thing (whatever it's called, the red part on the kazama piece) is longer than the s14 spl rod end by the same amount that the z32 inner tie rod is shorter than the s14 inner tie rod. If that made sense to anyone but me, I'll be amazed.

Dousan_PG · 08-25-2005, 09:31 PM

i can tell you why maybe
the tie rod end how the middle threads the ends in and out
maybe because ou have the ball joint side of it all the way in
you cant thread the tie rod end in aymore

my 2 cents

Grandpa · 08-26-2005, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dousan_PG

i can tell you why maybe
the tie rod end how the middle threads the ends in and out
maybe because ou have the ball joint side of it all the way in
you cant thread the tie rod end in aymore

my 2 cents

That wouldn't change the overall length. The bolt portion of the spherical bushing is literally touching the end of the inner tie rod within that long, bolt thingie.

MadScientist · 08-26-2005, 08:38 AM

Bro... Tie Rod End Angle Spacer things... take it out! Yes, it will make a huge difference. Talking about the huge gold looking piece between the Bearing and the Spindle... the big one... not the Red part on the Kazama.

The way the Kazama looks is not what you have on your car in the Pic...
Open the little pic up that I last posted... you can see the difference in lengths... The longer rod line will pull the bottom in because your rod is shorter than the line... simple geometry.

Put down the JDM drifto Option mag and do the work and you will see what the problem is... its not your rods!

Peace
Drew

EDIT: New pic...

[email protected] · 08-27-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grandpa

Yeah, they seem really long, but I know they're s14 ones. They came off my old s14. When I installed them, I set them the same length as the original s13 ones that came off, but I have since dropped the car 3"-3.5", so I was dialing out the toe that created. And, I know they're in the rack the entire way.

Kuah recommended contacting him yesterday morning, but I couldn't until I was out of class. Unfortunately, it seems like it I just missed him before his vacation. Ah well. I'll figure something out.

Worst comes to worst, I'll just cut the s14 inner tie rods. But I'll pull everything apart and recheck it before I do that. I just wanted to make sure I'm not running into something common.

I shipped out a set of Z32 tie rods and standard tie rod end buckles to you before I left, you should receive them soon. We'll work something out when I get back; the short/S14 tie rod ends do not allow alot of toe adjustment simply because of how short it has to be, but they have always been able to adjust to spec. Wierd...

Grandpa · 08-28-2005, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected]

I shipped out a set of Z32 tie rods and standard tie rod end buckles to you before I left, you should receive them soon. We'll work something out when I get back; the short/S14 tie rod ends do not allow alot of toe adjustment simply because of how short it has to be, but they have always been able to adjust to spec. Wierd...

Wow, thanks man. You can PM me when you get back, or I can just call on the 12th to work everything out. Now get off zilvia and get to vacationing!

08-24-2005, 06:16 PM	#1
Grandpa Zilvia Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 182 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Excessive toe-in: s14 tie rods on an s13 w/ spl rod ends I put s14 tie rods and spl's tie rod ends on my s13. I was in the process of dialing out a large amount of toe in when I bottomed out the rod ends on the rods, i.e. the threaded rod of the spherical bushing was up against the threaded portion of the tie rod. I still have 3-4 degrees of toe in. I have the correct s14 tie rod ends from spl. I have an s13 rack. The tie rods are seated fully on the rack. I don't get it. I mean, there's not a lot of things I could have screwed up installing these things. Are s14 tie rods longer than s13 ones? Do I need to shorten the s14 tie rods? Help.

08-24-2005, 08:18 PM	#4
drift into a curb Post Whore! Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 2,870 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	It's best to compare before installing. I don't fully comprehend your explanation, but you said you bottomed out the tie rod to the tie rod end. And it's still toe IN. So don't you need toe OUT? OR do you mean the inner tie rods are too long and you're getting toe OUT right now and you need to get the tie rods to adjust to toe IN more. __________________ Go big or go home!

08-25-2005, 08:29 AM	#6
drift into a curb Post Whore! Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 2,870 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	I doubt you ran into the same problem I did, but I believe mine were from a skyline and longer than 240 ones. Tein 240sx on top and Uras skyline on the bottom. If anything, you still have the stock components? Compare the length and everything to how you UN-installed the stock piece. That should tell you the length. __________________ Go big or go home!

08-25-2005, 02:22 PM	#10
Dousan_PG Post Whore! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Orange County, California Age: 46 Posts: 16,640 Trader Rating: (23) Rides Gallery: Dousan_PG Feedback Score: 23 reviews	i ran s14 inners and outers on my s13 with NO problems so i dont know what what to say to your post...cluess WITHOUT PISC take pics its odd..something aint right i always change rods one side at a time, for alignment purpose and ease if somethings f'd up to put it back to what iw as before __________________ Aaron Pink GodziRa www.geocities.com/pink_godzira

08-25-2005, 02:50 PM	#11
DoriftoSlut Nissanaholic! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: SoCal and Hawaii Age: 41 Posts: 1,986 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	My guess is you have Z32 outer ends with S14 inner rods. Make it S14><S14 or Z32><Z32 and you'll be fine. But yeah give us pics first... Or talk to Kuah, see if he could have accidently mixed up the inner/outer combination he gave you. Since the heim joint is the same of the S14 and Z32 rods, the only difference actually is the length of the SPL Parts threaded sleeve for the outer tie rod (what both the heim joint and the inner rod thread to... that peice). Swap your Z32 one out for an S14 one and you're set! __________________ Death Before Dishonor. www.pinkgodzira.com www.driftalliance.com

08-24-2005, 06:18 PM	#2
Al_S14 BANNED Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Chesapeake VA Age: 40 Posts: 405 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	if your steering whell is turned while you are adjusting toe i will throw everything off and make i tlook like youre off by x# of degrees on both sides(should be proportional) . make sure it is straight.

08-24-2005, 07:13 PM	#3
Grandpa Zilvia Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 182 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	It is. The steering wheel position is not the problem. The toe-in on both sides is identical.

08-25-2005, 08:38 AM	#7
MakotoS13 BANNED Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Texas Age: 42 Posts: 4,205 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	my Z32 inners work fine.

08-25-2005, 11:01 AM	#8
spdfreek0o Zilvia Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 280 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Can you put the excessive toe into degrees? Or are you trying to guess where it should be? From what I understand 0-.5 degree toe-in is the range on RWD vehicles.

08-25-2005, 01:56 PM	#9
Grandpa Zilvia Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 182 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	It's not 0-1 degrees, more like 5-10. It's VERY noticeable. The inner tie rods are definitely from an s14. I just figured someone might have ran this set up.

08-25-2005, 03:29 PM	#12
Grandpa Zilvia Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 182 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Alright, sorry guys. I should have taken pictures. Here's a few. Hopefully you can help me trouble shoot this. Oh, and please pardon the condition of the car. It's not finished. Here's a couple of pictures showing the degree of toe-in. The tie rod ends are fully threaded onto the tie rods in these pictures. Here's a couple of pictures of the inner and outer tie rods themselves with the car on the ground. The car is on MR coilovers with new bushings throughout and ssa's suspension kit. Thanks.

08-25-2005, 03:39 PM	#13
JaeTea Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: EC Posts: 967 Trader Rating: (3) Rides Gallery: JaeTea Feedback Score: 3 reviews	WTF??? Thats definetly not right! For some reason those inner tie rods look longer than they should be. __________________ KILL!KILL!KILL!KILL!KILL!KILL!KILL!KILL!

08-25-2005, 05:18 PM	#16
MadScientist Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NOLA Age: 48 Posts: 1,972 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	The problem is in the Tie Rod End (outer) not the Rods (inner)... Just like in a Shifter you have a Fulcrum Point. Fulcrum point is the point which balances the weight of the load. (The sphereical bearing in this case.) The Link looks to be much longer than it should be by about 1". (compare to Kazama's) Your are nice looking and beefy... they would be great for a purpose built Drift car... other than that not very street minded. Peace Drew EDIT: Just in case that was to complex... look at it like this. (yes I used Paint... I feel like a kid again...) __________________ Follow on IG - KoukiTheToolBox

08-25-2005, 05:25 PM	#17
DoriftoSlut Nissanaholic! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: SoCal and Hawaii Age: 41 Posts: 1,986 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	The SPL balljoints are adjustable. You can eliminate a lot more bumpsteer than what the Kazama ends will allow you to do. But in the picture yea it looks like with them adjusted that much, they push the spindles too far out and give the car too much toe in. This is why i reccomend people get the Z32 setup. The inner rods are shorter and thus the outters are longer. More threaded area and thus adjustablity that would come in handy in this situation. For "Grandpa" I might suggest taking the smaller spacer that is above the balloint and moving it below the balljoint (where you have the even smaller spacer). This would leave just the big reinforced spacer above the balljoint, and should bring the spindles back in and give you some toe out. I dunno if it will give you enough, but its a place to start... __________________ Death Before Dishonor. www.pinkgodzira.com www.driftalliance.com

08-25-2005, 06:19 PM	#19
Grandpa Zilvia Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 182 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Oh, and an even larger upper reinforced spacer was included with the spl rod ends, 1.5" in length. And now that I'm thinking about it, I bet the extended length of z32 spl rod end nut-thing (whatever it's called, the red part on the kazama piece) is longer than the s14 spl rod end by the same amount that the z32 inner tie rod is shorter than the s14 inner tie rod. If that made sense to anyone but me, I'll be amazed.

08-25-2005, 09:31 PM	#20
Dousan_PG Post Whore! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Orange County, California Age: 46 Posts: 16,640 Trader Rating: (23) Rides Gallery: Dousan_PG Feedback Score: 23 reviews	i can tell you why maybe the tie rod end how the middle threads the ends in and out maybe because ou have the ball joint side of it all the way in you cant thread the tie rod end in aymore my 2 cents __________________ Aaron Pink GodziRa www.geocities.com/pink_godzira

08-26-2005, 08:38 AM	#22
MadScientist Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NOLA Age: 48 Posts: 1,972 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	Bro... Tie Rod End Angle Spacer things... take it out! Yes, it will make a huge difference. Talking about the huge gold looking piece between the Bearing and the Spindle... the big one... not the Red part on the Kazama. The way the Kazama looks is not what you have on your car in the Pic... Open the little pic up that I last posted... you can see the difference in lengths... The longer rod line will pull the bottom in because your rod is shorter than the line... simple geometry. Put down the JDM drifto Option mag and do the work and you will see what the problem is... its not your rods! Peace Drew EDIT: New pic... __________________ Follow on IG - KoukiTheToolBox Last edited by MadScientist; 08-26-2005 at 09:03 AM..