Original vs. Knock-off

[MadScientist]

I have seen may people bitch and complain about this topic, so maybe this can go in the achived section so people are more educated about it, and its effects.

Original Aero parts have to be designed by a very educated and artistic person using very costly methods, some going so far as using a wind tunnel. The price has to be set within a reasonable limit to the money invested in all the hours of labor and research just to product the part! This is somewhat like a high risk Bank Loan, and the MSRP is the monthly payment. What happens if the part doesn’t sell well enough?

A Knock-off and Copies are simple and easy to make, and takes no major education and very little skill. An Original part is used and/ or slightly modified to make the Mold. This saves the Company all the costly expenses and risk that an Original part holds. The Mold is the most expensive part of producing a Knock-off or Copy. The company will make the cost of the Mold back quickly in a few sales, and can mark the price down to influence sales.

Purchasing products from these companies only helps to produce more Knock-offs and Copies while putting the Original Manufacture at risk of Bankruptcy or Closing. You don’t wear knock-off clothing… why should your car!?!

Yes, Knock-offs and Copies are Illegal. Many of these companies are able to produce these parts by hiding the production facility in other countries (China, Korea, and even Mexico). The Original Manufacture must solely seek out the production plant before any legal action can be made. Simple modifications to the Original part assist in protecting these companies from legal action. Something as simple as changing the color of the gel coat, rounding off edges, and using a different composite process is enough in most cases.

Composite production methods in most Original Aero parts are different than found in Knock-offs or Copies.

1. Autoclave/ Vacuum Molding/ RTM - very very high quality. Commonly used in light-weight super strong applications for its 70/30 Fiberglass to resin Mixture. Used on F1 cars, racing seats, Aero Space, etc... This method can be found in some very high quality kits such as (Ings, Top Secret, C-West, JUN, etc...) and in the preferred method of most all Japan Aero Kit companies. This is a very clean production where resin is infused into a bagged mold with the (Dry) Fiberglass or Carbon material. There is also Pre-Preg where the (Wet) Fiberglass or Carbon is Pre-impregnated with resin (must be kept cold) then a UV light or Heat is added to release the resin.
Read more about this process here: http://www.hexcelcomposites.com/Mark...ve/default.htm

2. Wet/ Dry Hand Lay-up – The mold is open and never bagged or closed off. Material is saturated with resin before or after laying into the Mold. Rollers and squeegees are used to move the resin and release air bubbles. This is common Composite method used by several trades like small Boat builders, tracker parts, etc… This is a fast, simple, easy to produce and replace parts method.

3. Chop/ Spray Gun – the dirtiest, nastiest, most uneven, resin rich parts to be produced. This is a Gun that chops up fiberglass and spits it out while spraying resin.

Read more about why not to use an Open Mold process here: http://www.doli.state.mn.us/pdf/fiberglass.pdf

Composite Industry Glossary of Terms:
http://www.compositesworld.com/sb/glossary

If your car is an expression of ones self… what is it saying about you!?!

Respect Yourself,
Respect Others,
and take Responsibility for all your actions.

Peace
Drew

[Pank]

at the same time, i'm sure there are more than a few people that cant justify the cost of "original" aero, b/c to them, it is just peices on their car that dont add to performance, and therefor want to spend as little as possible.

[AenjukuCar]

i was going to go with the cheaper stuff but i've got my choices down to origin or version select. I want the stuff to be top notch quality and bolt right up, i bought a R33 style front bumper for my spec-v from ground dynamics and i had to build edges for the fender screws and re-enforce the bumper among taking care of three holes cracking and among other stuff and it was even GTP blue class body parts i'm not dealing with all of that again.

[Johny5]

Originally Posted by Pank

at the same time, i'm sure there are more than a few people that cant justify the cost of "original" aero, b/c to them, it is just peices on their car that dont add to performance, and therefor want to spend as little as possible.

i understand what you're saying. but what? origin, version:select, ddrug, b*magic, all these companies have stepped up and offered cheap, semi to good quality aero. your complaint would be valid if you were saying you don't wanna spend ings, uras, msport prices. but the prices of the 4 companies i listed earlier are very reasonable. any lower than those 4 companies and you could be in for a world of trouble.

[Pank]

I know what you mean, and if it was me, i would probably spend the money for the original stuff, but I can see a lot of people that want a nice kit but dont want to spend money, or they just flat out cannot afford it (even at "cheap" Version:Select prices)

I'm sure its the same way with wheels

[s14srpilot]

These knock offs were created because unfortunately there is a market for them. They will remain as long as there are people who are ghetto enough to buy them.

[chris4130]

I'm sorry, that post was retarded... Knock offs will always be around and you "educating" people will not change anything......at all. Deal with it.

[RSP13-Sideways]

Hahahahah my buddy has a real "J-Blood" kit on order with RareTrick and it took over 5-months to get, actually I don't even think my friend has received it yet.....hold on lemme confirm....*calling cell phone*

Nope he hasn't gotten it yet. Raretrick, the reason noone buy's the real thing is because it's expensive and parts take months to get which sucks. When a nicely done copy is put on the market (Origin, Version, etc.) with great quality, little to no wait time, etc. It's probably going to be purchased over the real thing.

Knock off's are great, because they foster competion and lower pricing can be had for all of us to revel in!

Ohhhhh and my friend want's to know whats up with his JBlood kit for the 180SX hahahaha....

[WILDACEX187]

why is it that using knock-offs automatically makes u ghetto. alot of people (including myself, though im going with a factory kit like oem back, sides and front) cannot and will not pay 1g or more for a body kit. knock-offs are a risk for the buyer as well as the poor quality can even damage the car if it falls off while driving or something. the majority of this world is poor. knock-off companies cater to these people. please dont insult us poor people for wanting to have nice looking cars at "i will be able to eat for the next couple of weeks" prices.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Both have been proven to work excellent. Knockoffs exist, they always will. For me, I can go 30 minutes to TF and pick up my aero (which I need to do next weekend), then when I drive it and break it I will not cry and I will fix it. If its not fixable I'll buy another one.

If I had money and more money I'd buy 326 Power, but I don't have the money and I don't have the time to wait.

[HyperTek]

untill someone knocks off the original kouki 180sx aero *in eruthane*... the original will do.. hahah

The quality of knock offs has improved soo much over the last few years tho... fitment is way better then previous knock offs.. requiring a drill and a dremel to trim off extras and have very satisfying results as long as you are familur with body work and minor skills..

knock off companies are ok, as long as they take the time to make sure thier reproductions fit. Just stay away from super dirt cheaps, and also that Nismo copy crap cuz it didnt originate for the s13, just modded from s14 so it fits like crap. ive seen kits that came from vietnam and the quality was crap, very thin and flimsy, you could crack em with your hands. Not saying anything bad about vietnam, but whoever that company was, produced some pretty poor stuff...

I do think its kinda wack that someone has to loose here, and its the original company who designes a kit, but its bound to happen, just blame the media for business wanting to profit the cheapest way possible.

[drift freaq]

knock offs came about because the Japanase aftermarket part companies make a common mistake in marketing in the United States. They overprice their stuff thinking that because its from Japan and Superior, Americans will pay more. Ya I know this sounds bad but its true.
There are Japanese Aftermarket Performance companies that are holding out, (i.e. high price) pricing wise right now , HKS, Apexi etc.., fact is HKS is starting to hurt for it.
YOu can buy HKS stuff cheaper in Japan than you can get it here even though Japanese Automakers have always charged more for their cars in Japan than here. Hm sounds like HKS is trying to do someting about product dumping? NOT!!
More like they are trying to gouge the american market for all its worth and starting to take it in the pants from competition because of it.
Now I know you will come back with it costs to ship but guess what? I will use Kouki tails for my example .
People may not know this but the price of Kouki tails here is pretty much the same price it is in Japan from Nissan.
A lot of these companies have been overcharging the American import market cause they could in the beginning but as demand rose and they did not soften their stance companies saw an oppurtunity to either knock off Or make alternatives.
Direct knock offs is one thing. Making Alternatives is another.
I am a big fan of Alternatives that work as well or better , why? Its pretty much the American way.
We try to design and innovate( Its also becoming somewhat of a lost art here in the U.S.).
Don't come back at me about how thats not right. Thats how Japan i.e. in consumer electronics and cars and parts and such got to be where they are today.
Some of you are to young to know this or remember this but there was a time when made in Japan meant cheap ass crap!! Yup! for real!! Its funny how people dis Taiwan and Korea for doing the same damn thing the Japanese did. Thats how the Japanese wound up getting there quality together.
Don't think the Japanese did not knock off our consumer electronics and automobile designs back in the day to get what they have today .
Its one of things Japan has always been really good at. So why your crying about knock offs vs Japanese stuff remember this the Japanese even knock off each other.
Over half the current products available in the current Japanese aftermarket are either rebrand or knock off i.e copied and made somewhere else . Just pick up a copy of Hyper Rev you will see what I am talking about in all the ads.
Truth of the matter is what Taiwan and Korea and China are doing to Japan right now is what Japan did to the United States back in the late 60's early 70's and 80's .

[MadScientist]

What I am trying to educate you guys on is simple... its not about greed, its about respect.

I'm not pointing fingers or naming names... but when you purchase something so blaten, and obviously named, like Vortex, or GP "type", you are contributing and supporting Knock-offs.

There are companies that make cheep quality parts. I agree the quality of parts are improving.

Take for example the most popular of all titles "Blitz". We all know the original Blitz Aero kits are for Toyota/ Lexus and some Nissans. This kit design was transfered to a Mitsubishi Eclipse and became the most popular kit for that car. Is this a Knock-off, or a Copy! NO... it in no way effects the sales of the original manufacturer, and if anything is free advertising and support.
Even the Nismo 180sx aero kit that you see being sold is OK, because this was never a product produced and is a design transfer from the Nismo S14 Zenki.

Just because you can't afford something doesn't make it right to support knock-offs. If you cant afford something you naturally save up for it. Several things in life are difficult to afford (Car, House, Boat, Clothing, etc..) and in the end you have more respect for it. Credit is issued to help people afford things they can't afford to pay in full... use your credit wisely and you will be able to afford more.

I was not directing this towards strickly Japan Aero parts, but I see how that came across. More of these companies would seek interest in the US market and make their product easyier to obtain if the demand was valid. Also several JDM companies are very fearfull of bringing their Aero Kits to the US due to the high probability of knock-offs. Most of these companies can't afford to make such a high risk move to the US, and in the process have their line stolen from them.

Like I said before... its about respect, not greed!

Peace
Drew

[chris4130]

Originally Posted by MadScientist

Like I said before... its about respect, not greed!

You actually expect people to even comprehend the word respect in todays society?

Anyways, I disagree with you... knockoffs keep things competitive. It's not about respect, it's about money, and it always will be about money.

[drift freaq]

Drew, respect is a multifaceted word, RESPECT, you talk about respect from the knock off companies and Japan and your opening up a huge can of worms economically.
Does Japan respect the American consumer market as a whole? Not really, beyond trying to sell their stuff here cheaper than most American consumer products counterpart.
Why is it its so hard to sell American products in Japan vs sellng Japanese products in the United States? Protectionist trade policies !! Japan pratices protectionist trade policies all the time. Its become a bit better recently but its still very unbalanced.
Now do not get me wrong here, I like Japanese products and Japanese people but I do think they need to work on things trade wise.
Granted some american products are no longer worth purchasing but there was a time when that was different. Japan killed the American consumer electronics business with lower priced copies of stuff they learned how to manufacture from American companies.
How do I know this? The American goverment in the 70's made big mistakes in letting Japanese business's tour our automatad factorys to learn the tech so they could go do it themselves. Why do I now this because my father was in charge of Technology at Fairchild Semiconductor. He witnessed this stuff first hand. The end result the Japanese copied our products and manufacturing tech and sold the shit cheaper.
Hmmmm can we say knock off!!! I am not advocating any of this stuff but before you start a thread about this kind of stuff and start talking about respect realize its kinda of a case of the pot calling the Kettle black here.
Japanese aero companies are reaping what has been sowed by their forebearers in Japanese business in general.
Want to stop knock offs ? Well then people have to learn to trade fairly.
China should not be tieing the Yuan to the dollar !! If the Yuan floated freely like it should then we would not see as much of this made in China knock off stuff due to cheap labor. The labor would be paid more.
This whole thing is about fair trade policies and until countries decide to work that way shits going to happen i.e. copies knock offs etc..
I know people in the Pro Audio business who will not buy certain companies stuff because its made in China now. Thats cool on a social political basis statement wise but unless everyone follows suit nothing happens.
People want to buy crap and suffer the consequences that is there problem.
If the stuff is cheaper and quality then it maybe worth purchasing. In that sense it has nothing to do with respect.
Oh excuse me I will let you charge me 3-4 times what the item sells for because I respect you. Man I want some of what your smoking if thats the way you think it should be.
Fuck me in the butt, thank you very much, I like your product. hahhahahhahahhahhahahhahhahaha

Drew, I date Japanese women, I have very close Japanese friends I know all about respect in the Japanese sense. I do respect Japanese people and companies, but it does not stop me from developing products to compete with them. I am not talking aero but you might as well. Aero is the kind of stuff where knock offs are inevitable. Also did you know imitation is the highest form of flattery?
Fact is most of the knock off aero stuff does suck , the few times I have been stuck with a couple of pieces of it I have hated it.
Yet some of the very companies that are making that knock off stuff are also making Carbon Fiber stuff that we can't get anyplace else. TC sportline, Seibon, VIS all are turning out decent carbon stuff these days. Their products have actually improved.
Now if we could get the same stuff from Japan here for a reasonable price we would probably buy that. Yet most of it is either not available or prohibitively expensive not all but some .
I sell a lot of JDM stuff that I would not buy made by someone else, a lot of Nissan stuff. I also sell products that are very quality yet made here or in other countries.
Am I not supposed to sell that stuff out of respect for JDM stuff ?ハッハハハッハッハッハハははっはっは
NOT!! ya that was laughing in Japanese characters
If these Japanese aero companies your so worried about really want to do something about the situation they really can!! Its not like they can't ! Do not sell the Japanese short in their desire to market to the world or the U.S.

[mr_240sx]

Originally Posted by chris4130

It's not about respect, it's about money, and it always will be about money.

this might be abit off topic, but look at wal-mart. People shop there because their prices are cheaper then anywhere else. This world is all about money and who sells stuff the cheapest!

[ThatGuy]

^Sure but I wouldn't buy a Body Kit from Wal-Mart. I don't buy clothes at Wal-Mart, or stereos, or computers, etc., etc. Same reason I won't buy knock-off body kits.

[mr_240sx]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

^Sure but I wouldn't buy a Body Kit from Wal-Mart. I don't buy clothes at Wal-Mart, or stereos, or computers, etc., etc. Same reason I won't buy knock-off body kits.

maybe you dont..... but alot of people do........why do you think they are everywhere now!!

[ThatGuy]

I'm just saying there is a time for saving money, and there is a time for quality. True enough, alot of people could care less about quality and will just go for the cheapest deal. If you buy cheap parts, you end up paying the same if not more in the long run to repair and properl fit them. I've had personal experince with kits for friends cars from GTP and Andy's Auto Sport. I have no desire to have the same experience with my own car. To me it's not about greed, or respect. It's about quality.

[chris4130]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

I'm just saying there is a time for saving money, and there is a time for quality.

Give me a break... Bomex makes some of the WORST fitting crap I have ever seen. Version Select fits JUST as good as many other "real" japanese companies.

Furthermore, if you haven't noticed.... alot of "real" companies take a stock aero bumper modify it a little and call it their own... sound like a "knock off" too huh? Get off the high horse... everyone steals from everyone.. it's a viscious chain. The "real" companies steal from the manufacturer (nissan) the "knock-off" companies steal from them blah blah..

[WILDACEX187]

ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY. MONEY MAKES THIS WORLD GO ROUND. wish i had some though

[ThatGuy]

Originally Posted by chris4130

Give me a break... Bomex makes some of the WORST fitting crap I have ever seen. Version Select fits JUST as good as many other "real" japanese companies.

Furthermore, if you haven't noticed.... alot of "real" companies take a stock aero bumper modify it a little and call it their own... sound like a "knock off" too huh? Get off the high horse... everyone steals from everyone.. it's a viscious chain. The "real" companies steal from the manufacturer (nissan) the "knock-off" companies steal from them blah blah..

Who the FUCK are you talking to? When did I ever get on a high horse about anything? I was simply stating my opinion. I am NOT the person you want to start a fight with.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

Who the FUCK are you talking to? When did I ever get on a high horse about anything? I was simply stating my opinion. I am NOT the person you want to argue with.

He has the right to argue your opinion. I have to agree with him, and you. There is a time to save money and a time for quality. Why not do both. Version Select is durable, fits fine, its cheap, takes a good beating. I've seen it on soooooo many cars in person, put it on a few, seen people hit stuff with it, run off of things with it, drive full day at tracks with it and am thoroughly impressed with the quality of it.

[ThatGuy]

No where have I ever bashed Version:Select. Besides I thought Version:Selct manufactured their line of aero, not knock-offs. I could be wrong about them, but I know I'm right about the companies I spoke about. He's welcome to argue for or against my point, just don't try and throw some bullshit "high horse" comment in there.

[KiDyNomiTe]

Ya the high horse thing is just macho online talk, but v:S is slightly modified, and ya I have heard bad things of the companies you speak of also.

[yudalicious]

while I agree cheap knockoffs suck, but it's hard for someone to overlook a quality cheaper alternative... I try to follow the rule you get what you're pay for, but at times its just more beneficial if you buy the "knock off." Like the 16x8 rota te37 knockoffs I bought in the GB, I mean the TE37s are forged and no doubt of much greater quality, but I'm not on the track apexing over curbs every weekend so I figured the Rotas (most have positive experiences w/ their wheels) at a lower cost will do for me. Sometimes I buy Eckerd brand drugs instead of the much more expensive brand, they are infact just knockoffs, but they do the job.

[TRUENOCOUPE]

@ people saying that they will never buy knock off parts.

-Al

[MadScientist]

I started this as a General Topic of Discusion with informed information about Composite processing. So far everyone assumed I was speaking of Japan vs. the USA. Alot of people make assumptions about what they are getting quality wise, and Yes, Quality was the focus of informing you about the composite process.

How do I know about composite processes and Quality??
I have been outside contracted by the Millitary for Composite Reseach and Development for the last 5 years.

I was not naming companies but the most commonly named company so far is Version Select. It is good quality... I never denied that... do I have an account with them?... Yes!... can I sell it?... Yes!... I even have an account with VIS!... If someone asks for something, I will get it... dont assume that just because my business is based on Japanesse parts only, I dont know what customers are buying.

And yes... they bombed us, and we bombed them... that is politics, history, economics, and life... not quality!

When I say, Respect... its not about where or who manufactured the part, its about the process used. ex: The Top Secret Carbon Fiber Hood is solid Pre-preg Carbon Fiber... no Fiberglass shell or core... a true Carbon Fiber Hood. The skill and education required to make the part is what gets my respect.

I called Seibon the other day just to see if the guy on the phone knew what he was talking about... I'm not doubting their quality, just follow me!
I asked the guy one question... If the Carbon parts had Fiberglass cores and/or shells... he almost seemed offended and confused at the question but replied... "Yes, because the Carbon alone is not strong enough to support the weight." This is by far incorrect, and hinted that the process was open mold Hand Lay-up. Will I still purchass Seibon products... sure, and at least now I know the quality to expect from the process used, and all it took was one simple question.

peace
Drew

[revat619]

Originally Posted by KiDyNomiTe

Ya the high horse thing is just macho online talk, but v:S is slightly modified, and ya I have heard bad things of the companies you speak of also.

"slightly modified"

hahahaha i crack up everytime somebody says that. Slighty modified, and yet they blatantly (sp?) use the pictures from the companies they're knocking off in their own adds. Oh they're slightly modified alright...

What i dont get is how people will spend upwards of 2k on wheels and on the same car rock a knock off kit. If you can afford brand new work wheels (or any wheel of that caliber) dont sit up here and BS about "oh i cant afford it" or "its too expensive". I'm not saying people like that dont have their reasons. But seriously, if you can afford expensive wheels like that, i dont wanna hear you people complaining about the cost of original aero.

[ghostuss]

you don't see knock off forged rims do you? Those are not something simple and you can just copy from. You need the machine to do it so wheels is not in the question. They are aruging about quality knock offs vs real counter parts. (I haven't seen anyone stand for cheap knock offs so far) So really this arugement is between rather to spend or not to spend the extra money. I say no. I rather spend the money else where. I only respect quality and nothing else. Spending money for the brand is simply not my way of doing things.