Ebay / TCS multi-link snapped rod ends *pics*

[EchoOfSilence]

What rod ends do SPL use?

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by EchoOfSilence

What rod ends do SPL use?

I've been trying to figure that out for a while.

Something makes me think even SPL doesn't know on their non-house arms (all but the tension rods, tie rod ends, and S14 RUCAs but if Kuah reads this PLEASE correct me!), because I doubt KTS is super-keen on letting out whose ends they use. It looks like they're zinc-plated steel but have no identifying markings. (I know because I have some KTS parts in my hands right now.) SPL says they're teflon-lined. I've had my hands on bad ends and good ends, and I'd say they're decent. There is as much axial play as the Aurora ends on my Peak arms, i.e. nil, but the bearing surround/bolt is of lesser quality and the overall design is comprised of two pieces. Mildly disappointing to say the least, but I lack the skills to create my own. I guess I'll add "Aurora rod ends for my LCAs" to my shopping list.

If anyone else could shed any more light that'd be great.

[240shorty]

You SoCal guys are one thing, you've probably never actually seen rust. The fella from Canada should know better. Rust does not cause that kind of failure in that time frame. If this were the case, us Michigan folks would all be walking to work, cause every car on the road would fall apart.

It's all about metal grade. Put a grade 8 bolt under my car for a year and it will be rusted, but it's still not gonna snap like that. Put a Home Depot generic bolt under there and it will snap in five minutes, rust or no rust. Surface rust is no big deal and I'd put money on that not being the cause of failure.

[TurDz]

Originally Posted by Titan

But guess what, if it isn't stainless, it will corrode, bind, and fail just like the first one.

Add salt to the equation and stainless won't work well at all. Stainless steels are made to resist corrosion from pure water. You add salt, such as ocean water, or road salt, it will eventually corrode just the same.

[EchoOfSilence]

well, SPL says they're chromoly (4130) ends, teflon coated.

[Wiisass]

Alright, well your first point isn't valid becuase the rod ends with a higher load rating do use better materials. In terms of the FK rod ends, the one you bought uses 303SS while the one that I would recommend for this type of application uses heat treated 17-4PH stainless. The 17-4 is a stronger material than the 303. But you are right if they're the same material and same area then they will fail with the same load. But since they aren't, then the one that has the higher load rating and stronger materials will be less prone to break in all failure modes.

I still dont' agree that this was a good choice for a suspension rod end. I wouuld've chose something else and I would never recommend this type of rod end to be used for this application. But you can go ahead and run it, I just want to know when and how it breaks.

You really don't seem concerned with the strength of the piece. I mean sure the load rating soudns like it should be fine, but you are most likely going to experience some type of binding again considering the harsh environment that this piece will be seeing. At least run some type of boot on it to keep out the dirt and salt and other elements that will cuase it to break. I mean it's still a two-piece rod end, and it could still create some problems.

Oh well, another thing I realized while I was looking at the FK offerings is that you did buy the best 14x2 rod end available. It just sucks that the only rod end was a commercial application.

I have over 3 years experience dealing with different types of rod ends. I know what the cheap ones look like and what the good ones look like and they are distinct. I'm saying that from my experience, the ones you bought are not the ones that should be used in this type of application. So the looks of it are very relevant to me because I have dealt with this kind of stuff before. I mean just look at any race car and tell me where you find the the rod ends that look like yours. They will be used in just linkages and other types of non-critical pieces. The suspension arms will use something stronger. At least a 3-piece rod end, normal misalignment with a higher strength.

Oh well, I guess there's no point for any of this discussion because you don't have a choice for what rod end you will use unless you can find somewhere that offers a good rod end with such a weird thread. But just keep an eye on these, because even though they're SS, it doesn't mean that they're not succeptable to the elements.

[Titan]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

You really don't seem concerned with the strength of the piece. I mean sure the load rating soudns like it should be fine, but you are most likely going to experience some type of binding again considering the harsh environment that this piece will be seeing.

The rod end will be fine as long as the ball does not seize in the liner.

This is the most important point:

Even if I bought the absolute best rod end like you recommend, if the ball seized then bind would occur and something would break. It may not be the rod end, but some suspension comonent would have to give. It is much easier and cheaper in this case to replace a rod end then say the RUCA itself.

Originally Posted by Wiisass

At least run some type of boot on it to keep out the dirt and salt and other elements that will cuase it to break. I mean it's still a two-piece rod end, and it could still create some problems.

If you know where I can find a boot, please let me know. So far I haven't seen anything I can even cut to fit.

Originally Posted by Wiisass

Oh well, another thing I realized while I was looking at the FK offerings is that you did buy the best 14x2 rod end available. It just sucks that the only rod end was a commercial application.

That's the thing, 14x2 is an incredibly uncommon thread size and pitch. To run something else, I would have to convert the insert in the RUCA itself to say either 1/2 or 5/8, perhaps 9/16 if I can find it.

Originally Posted by Wiisass

But just keep an eye on these, because even though they're SS, it doesn't mean that they're not succeptable to the elements.

Of course, this is why I mention there is no substitute for regular inspection. Which I will be performing on a regular basis from now on, as mentioned in my second post.

[DeBastaard]

My opinion is that the chinese used crap material to build these things.
The idea behind it is good, I mean there couldn't be a real difference between let's say Cusco and these arms... As it all comes down to how they are finished.
Some cusco arms have FUBAR Welding on them as well... doesn't really give me a safe feeling by even looking at it.

[Gladman]

My opinion.... you should have greased that stuff.

One of the problems with made in china car parts is they dont come with instructions, if you purchased MOOG ball joints and didnt put grease in them, they would seize up and your wheels would fall off...

Id say its pretty obvious with a joint like that to grease it. If you have covered it with some white lithium grease it may have lasted 10 years, instead of 1.

Also, no one hear knows your driving habits, a part wouldnt rust up and seize if its constantly being worked. I had the same arm snap on me while i was drifting, and it was a factory part. Everyone has their duds, you got a dud set and you probably could have greased them. Lots of people run these arms and have no problems at all. And is that not a grease nipple right on the joint itself?

[SR240DET]

so those rod ends you posted..... that is the exact measurement to raplace the rod ends on the cheap ebay arms?

[Titan]

Originally Posted by Gladman

My opinion.... you should have greased that stuff.

Read my first post.

They were properly greased with lithium grease after each oil change. The last one being 5 weeks prior to failure.

Originally Posted by Gladman

Id say its pretty obvious with a joint like that to grease it. If you have covered it with some white lithium grease it may have lasted 10 years, instead of 1.

Nope, not even one year with regular greasing.

Originally Posted by Gladman

Also, no one hear knows your driving habits, a part wouldnt rust up and seize if its constantly being worked.

My car is a daily driver, and has been since I installed these arms.

During the summer it was a short commute to school everyday.

Starting in the winter I drive 60km back and forth to work everyday.

I assure you, the joint was constantly worked.

Originally Posted by Gladman

Lots of people run these arms and have no problems at all.

One failure speaks louder then a million successes.

What are the details of these other people? Climate? Salted roads? Daily mileage?

Simply because the arms haven't failed yet on other rides, does not mean they are insusceptible to failure in the future.

[Titan]

Originally Posted by SR240DET

so those rod ends you posted..... that is the exact measurement to raplace the rod ends on the cheap ebay arms?

Yes.

Same thread, M14x2. Same ball bore, M14.


You will however need to reuse the ball spacers.

I am going to turn some new ones out of 304 stainless soon and replace the zinc coated ones the joint originally came with.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by EchoOfSilence

well, SPL says they're chromoly (4130) ends, teflon coated.

Maybe the bearings themselves are chromoly with teflon liners, but here's pics of the rod ends:




Keep in mind these are on the most expensive single suspension item KTS sells.

[bing]

those are basic 2-piece, PTFE rod ends...

under perfect conditions they would be awesome but still not the best, those rod ends are under $15 usd each.

you will need dustboots to keep dirt and other gunk out of the liner which will eventually wear-out the bearing.

i have about 40 of those PTFE (teflon-lined) and non PTFE sitting here now.

[1mns13]

cheap chinese junk. There's always a market for cheap. Walmart is in business because of it.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by bing

those rod ends are under $15 usd each

Exactly. Why KTS would cheap out on the most specialized item in their repertoire is beyond me. The SOLE PURPOSE of these arms is racing, why compromise their usability in such a harsh environment?

I'm just having trouble finding replacements of the same size... and stomaching the cost. It will add something like $90 to the cost of each RLCA and $45 to the cost of each FLCA. I'm probably going to stick with the factory ends at least until I have my big brakes all paid for. Christ I have a lot of money into this car...

[TurDz]

May as well open up this thread again too...these are very important issues that need to be resolved.

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=90653

Most of all, we don't want anything less than the BEST (or somewhere near the top) quality rod end ball joints. Especially for those in areas of snow and salt.

[EchoOfSilence]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

I'm just having trouble finding replacements of the same size... and stomaching the cost. It will add something like $90 to the cost of each RLCA and $45 to the cost of each FLCA. I'm probably going to stick with the factory ends at least until I have my big brakes all paid for. Christ I have a lot of money into this car...

Oh, you mean for the LCA's you bought from SPL? Were they KTS or SPL in-house?

Which ends were you considering using to replace the ends the LCA's come with?

[bing]

what spec end do you need?

if you need an SAE 5/8" i can hook you up, i have some serious ones coming this week. i'll take some pics when they arrive.

[KA24DESOneThree]

The control arms listed on SPL's website are KTS.

I was considering Aurora AMTs. The AMTs are rated at 28k pounds, the FK JMTs at 11.5k with a price difference of about $20 per end. My dilemma with this is listed below.

I've been trying to measure it right and I always get 11/16" or 17.5mm. The closest end I've found that actually might fit is made by Fluoro and costs $106 each. WTF, am I just stupid or something? It's 1/8" off 5/8" and 1/8" smaller than 3/4".

Bing, thanks for the offer, it's much appreciated.

[SR240DET]

wow!! this is big... im glad i didnt go with SPL parts now... im just gonna say fuck it and get my buddy on base to tig me some arms with my own bearings...

when i saw this guys tc rods that came here from texas.... i noticed some rust... it wasnt surface rust either... looked like it was kinda deep...

[Titan]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

The control arms listed on SPL's website are KTS.

I was considering Aurora AMTs. The AMTs are rated at 28k pounds, the FK JMTs at 11.5k with a price difference of about $20 per end. My dilemma with this is listed below.

As mentioned several times already, having a rediculous load rating won't prevent failure.


The important part is to make sure the ball and housing material are made of stainless, or something equally resistant to corrosion.

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

I've been trying to measure it right and I always get 11/16" or 17.5mm. The closest end I've found that actually might fit is made by Fluoro and costs $106 each. WTF, am I just stupid or something? It's 1/8" off 5/8" and 1/8" smaller than 3/4".

What are you measuring?

Are you measureing the diameter of the threaded male rod end, or the female insert?

Also, I hope you are using a vernier caliper.

Worse comes to worse, you can always go to a hardware store and see which nut fits the rod end.

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by EchoOfSilence

What rod ends do SPL use?

Our in house products (tension rods, tie rod ends, etc) use QA1 2-piece chomoly PTFE-lined rod ends. Products we import from Japan (NAMS btw, not KTS) use M16 (M18 for lower arms) steel 2-piece PTFE-lined rod ends. These may not be the best rod ends, but do have high pre-load new, so they wear slowly and takes years to develop any play. They are also oversized for the application which increases their load rating and helps reduce wear. Our customers and our own experience can attest that these hold up well over years, and we have had zero complaints about them binding/seizing (search our history)...

We do stock QA1 M16 3-piece (chromoly housing, stainless race, bearing steel ball, PTFE lined) rod ends that we offer to customers for the subsidised price of $20/pair. We would have added them to the arms we sell but this is a very price sensitive market, and in our experience unecessary since the regular ends work very well. But if you want the upgraded ends, we have them, just give us a call. BTW, M18 3-piece ends are unfortunately not readily available.

I know some vendors make a big deal out of using 3-piece rod ends, but FYI while 3-piece rod ends generally wear better than 2-piece ends, their one drawback is the reduced misalignment. That is why we do not use 3-piece ends on our tie rod ends and tension rods. On the rear multillink where high misalignment is unecessary 3-piece rod ends can be used.

BTW I don't know why this is such a hot topic now, I thought it has been well known for a while now the greasable rod ends sold by some vendors (and on ebay) is junk. A search would have revealed several posted failures from 1-2 years back... But if some of you remember, in theory these sounded good at the time, some vendors hyped these type of ends as "protecting your investment" because you can grease them and have them last forever. Similarly, an all SS rod ends sounds good, but with all due respect to member "titan", I would not recommend them for race use unless you oversize them by 2 sizes, because they have only about half the load rating of a regular steel rod end.

If you live in an environment with alot of road salt, please wash and inspect your suspension regularly. Even with an all SS rod end, other parts of the arm, the subframe, spindle, bolts, etc can still develop rust.

[bing]

Hey Kuah,

yeah those ends are exactly the ones i have here.

i have a ton of other pics of the china arms but everytime i post them up people get really angry at me, usually from the companaies that sell them.

unfortuantely not enough people know about the dangers of these arms, not nearly enough people.

the scene is getting much bigger and there are 50 new guys a month looking into it and they end up getting the cheap arms.

its important to keep this issue salient so people stop making the mistake.

[EchoOfSilence]

I'll agree with bing, this issue is too important to not be discussed.

So is it safe to say the QA1 M16 3-piece ends are the way to go? Or are the Aurora counterparts better?

[Chinoliro]

http://www.bakerprecision.com/rodacc.htm

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by EchoOfSilence

I'll agree with bing, this issue is too important to not be discussed.

So is it safe to say the QA1 M16 3-piece ends are the way to go? Or are the Aurora counterparts better?

QA1 3-piece rod ends are all any of us should need, really. Aurora may be better, but they're more likely than not more expensive, especially considering the prices Kuah is offering the QA1s at. The QA1 rod ends on my SPL v2 tension rods are very nice.

Thanks for clearing up the confusion, Kuah. Nagisa makes the arms, and the size of the lower arm rod ends are M18; exactly the information I needed.

I agree with Bing. The less failures of suspension parts we have, the better off we are. I sold my old crappy tension rods (from a company who has advertised on this site in the group buy section many times and whose name is now synonymous with "cheap" to me) to a friend of mine and now I'm offering $20 to him towards the purchase of good-quality tension rods. This trend of cheaper-is-better when it comes to parts is ridiculous. Megan Racing should be nowhere near as big as it is now, but it is. All these eBay companies count on our lack of knowledge to make the big bucks and it's working quite well.

Bing, you're also right about the problem being lack of education. The more people who read threads like this and learn and realize that their pinching of pennies may result in bodily harm, the better.

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by EchoOfSilence

So is it safe to say the QA1 M16 3-piece ends are the way to go? Or are the Aurora counterparts better?

IMO there is no significant difference in quality of rod ends of similar spec/construction from QA1, Aurora, etc. Aurora has a better variety of metric rod ends, but you may find that you cannot order everything they list in their catalog, for example I tried ordering some M18 rod ends from Aurora for a customer who insisted on the 3pc. ends, and even though they are listed in the catalog they do not stock it nor want to manufacture them (unless you are ordering 1000pc. or more).

FWIW I run the regular rod ends on my Z32 (daily driver, monthly HPDEs, and 10.90 at the dragstrip) and I don't feel the need to use the 3-piece rod ends myself.

[bing]

i used the QA1 non-PTFE version of the ones Kuah uses on TC rods that i made last year, also used them for sway bar endlinks

http://bings.ca/images/frontsuspension1

the rod ends lasted a full year with no problems including being driven through winter in Canada. i never greased them or anything and did not notice any noises.

then i wrote off the car and snapped the hardened steel portion of the arm... the aluminum rod was fine but you can attribute that to details of the impact, angle, load etc.

for the stuff i make now i have a whole load of the top o' the line QA1 3-piece seal sealing ends coming in this week. cant wait.

up here in Canada we need rod ends that will kepe dirt and salt out of the rod end, that is why i decided to overkill it.

[shortandsour]

so how are these as far as quality goes??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rock-...87347567QQrdZ1