Aftermarket Tie Rods... worth it?

[TheWolf]

Give it up guys. Aftermarket tie rods worth it? Thinking of getting a tein setup or going with a SPL unit or a combination. The car is pretty set suspension wise now so it's just the next thing. I'd really like some precise steering.. don't know if the power steering is laggy but I feel like there's a hesitation between the car turning and my input.

[DJPimpFlex]

well the tein inners have spacers that go between the rack and the tie rod to give you more steering angle. Great for drifting. Most good aftermarket tie rods are S14 size, which are thicker. As for outers the teins are garbage. There basically stock. The spl and kazama are pillowball and bumpsteer adjustable making them the best in my mind. Overall your best bet is either the SPL set up, or tein inners and Kazama/KTS outers. I have the later and there awsome.

[Shawn_of_the_Dead]

yeah, I bought the Tein inner/outers and installed with spacers. I did get a better angle, but the bumpsteer is alot more aggressive. Some roads in my area feel like they are gonna pull me into the ditch. Definately get some as mentioned already to adjust and help with that problem. I will probably be changing out my ends to the Kazama soon.

[Jonnie Fraz]

You said "laggy input" have you changed tensoin rod bushings? I noticed a huge difference when I instaled new TC bushings and added a Power Brace.

[Silverbullet]

you can also use OEM Z32 tie rods. Much more beefier.

[SochBAT]

FYI, with most tierod installations, you will recieve bumpsteer. With Tien, i've recieved loads more of bumpsteer, forcing me to drive 65 on onramps/junctions.

And, for those that didn't really know, tien rods and ends = Z32 rods and ends.

Go with SPL. I wish i did.

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by sochbat

And, for those that didn't really know, tien rods and ends = Z32 rods and ends.

Just wanted to clarify -- the Z32 ends are larger will not fit the 240SX unless the spindle is bored out. Standard S13 or S14 ends will also not work with Z32 rods because the Z32 rods are shorter than S13/S14 rods.

Only our tie rod ends will work with Z32 inner tie rods on the S chassis, no other combination of Z32 or S13/S14 parts will fit...

[Dousan_PG]

Originally Posted by sochbat

FYI, with most tierod installations, you will recieve bumpsteer. With Tien, i've recieved loads more of bumpsteer, forcing me to drive 65 on onramps/junctions.

And, for those that didn't really know, tien rods and ends = Z32 rods and ends.

Go with SPL. I wish i did.

1 you suck at driving
my car was retarded low, w/ the tein steup and i still drove like a maniac everywhere, freeway onramps freeways, race tracks drift and grip events etc etc etc. people make it to be a huge deal, just deal w/ it, adapt as a driver.

tein is s14 tie rods and ends w/ spacer
not z32

if i did it all over i would have ended up w/ what i have now

s14 inners (tein same as s14), splparts.com outers, spl/uras spacer

bumpsteer is next to none, handling is great, angle is wonderful and if i bust up my tie rod, any autoparts store willhave s14s as well as the dealer if needs be. replaces are cheap and easy.

[SochBAT]

Originally Posted by Dousan_PG

1 you suck at driving
tein is s14 tie rods and ends w/ spacer
not z32

Oops, there goes my common sense. Posted when i was half asleep.

S14, not Z32 (but you could use the rods tho)

[DoriftoSlut]

Originally Posted by sochbat

Oops, there goes my common sense. Posted when i was half asleep.

S14, not Z32 (but you could use the rods tho)

Nope... Z32 inners are too short to use. They have to be used with the longer Z32 outer endlinks. Tein outers are S14 size (too SHORT). You'd get... like 4 inches of toe out trying to use Tein outers and Z32 inners.

[slideways2004]

Originally Posted by Dousan_PG

1 you suck at driving
my car was retarded low, w/ the tein steup and i still drove like a maniac everywhere, freeway onramps freeways, race tracks drift and grip events etc etc etc. people make it to be a huge deal, just deal w/ it, adapt as a driver.

tein is s14 tie rods and ends w/ spacer
not z32

if i did it all over i would have ended up w/ what i have now

s14 inners (tein same as s14), splparts.com outers, spl/uras spacer

bumpsteer is next to none, handling is great, angle is wonderful and if i bust up my tie rod, any autoparts store willhave s14s as well as the dealer if needs be. replaces are cheap and easy.

this is on a s14 right? what would you use on s13? can you use z32 inners?

[Dunkee]

Originally Posted by Dousan_PG

1 you suck at driving
my car was retarded low, w/ the tein steup and i still drove like a maniac everywhere, freeway onramps freeways, race tracks drift and grip events etc etc etc. people make it to be a huge deal, just deal w/ it, adapt as a driver.

I'm far from the great driver...I don't drift or autocross so it's not a big deal to me...but I do like to take "spirited" drives. I'm a pussy when it comes to bumpsteer. I'm used to adjusting the car and accelerator but the car would be a lot more fun if bumpsteer didn't pop up on every little uneven road. It gets annoying after a while. I should just get something like a G35 but I wish my 240 could handle similar. Nice drop, decent ride and good handling. That to me would be perfect.

BTW I have the SPLs but right now no power steering so I can't give an accurate review.

[g6civcx]

Just a word of warning. With the increased steering angle, you may have wheel clearance issues with your wheels. If you're running stock wheel offset, you may rub the wheels at the steering lock.

Calculate your offset correctly to adjust for the increased steering angle.

[McRussellPants]

SPL All the way.

The Kazama / KTS Outters blow. The rod end is tiny and I've seen the rod on the end bend.

SPL Sells Spacers to go with the Z32 Inners. The SPL Outter Shank is steel and the rod end is huge. It also has the most bumpsteer adjustment out of any of them and comes with machined support washers so the shank wont break.

[DJPimpFlex]

Originally Posted by McRussellPants

SPL All the way.

The Kazama / KTS Outters blow. The rod end is tiny and I've seen the rod on the end bend.

SPL Sells Spacers to go with the Z32 Inners. The SPL Outter Shank is steel and the rod end is huge. It also has the most bumpsteer adjustment out of any of them and comes with machined support washers so the shank wont break.

What makes you say that? I have the KTS outers and they have been perfect. I suspose they could brake, but only if you hit something. As for the SPL outers they had to much adjustment for a while and they had to recall some of them because of cracking. SPL is a great company so they took care of there customers, but KTS's and Kazamas are be no means crap. You'de be fine going with either.

[gotta240]

Can someone PLEASE explain bumpsteer and what it does to the car?

I have ALL my suspension done(sway bars, coilover, f and r strut bars, tension rods, pillow mounts, camber plates, etc.) and i have the tein tie rods sitting in my room about to go in.... Should i save my time and effort, and just pay for spl's???

please explain? THANK a lot! btw- i have a s14

[nsn240]

what makes spl so much better? just because they are beefier and offer bumpsteer adjust?

[McRussellPants]

Originally Posted by nsn240

what makes spl so much better? just because they are beefier and offer bumpsteer adjust?

-SPL uses the Z32 Inner. so its as beefy or better than Tein/Uras for 60$.

-SPL uses a steel buckle, so its not gonna sheer/crack like the Aluminum KTS if you do happen to hit something.

-The KTS Rod ends look one size bigger than the rod ends used for sway bars. Johnny5s was worn enough to rattle in a few months. His rod end was also bent, even though he never went curb surfing.

-KTS Shanks are short to keep them from breaking. SPL had this problem on the first batch but it has been fixed with support sleeves. and has ~40mm of bumpsteer Adjustment.

-SPL is a KTS dealer and Kuah felt the need to make his own outters.


Those are the reasons I'm going to use SPL Inner/Outters over KTS.

[nsn240]

Originally Posted by McRussellPants

-SPL uses the Z32 Inner. so its as beefy or better than Tein/Uras for 60$.

-SPL uses a steel buckle, so its not gonna sheer/crack like the Aluminum KTS if you do happen to hit something.

-The KTS Rod ends look one size bigger than the rod ends used for sway bars. Johnny5s was worn enough to rattle in a few months. His rod end was also bent, even though he never went curb surfing.

-KTS Shanks are short to keep them from breaking. SPL had this problem on the first batch but it has been fixed with support sleeves. and has ~40mm of bumpsteer Adjustment.

-SPL is a KTS dealer and Kuah felt the need to make his own outters.


Those are the reasons I'm going to use SPL Inner/Outters over KTS.

wow, i appreciate the complete answer! definately going with the spl tie rods.

[s14slide]

Originally Posted by TheWolf

Give it up guys. Aftermarket tie rods worth it? .

to answer the original question, YES! You'll really wish you had done it when you snap a stock one and didn't even hit anything. I've seen it happen. Once you put decently sticky rubber up front, they'll want to give. I got lucky. Was running 9J up front with 235 Azenis, 115's, and after just one night I bent one. Had to beat on it to straighten it out and then take it easy on the way home. It was a close call, could have be disastaterous, being as I was on the mountain when it happened, and it would have definately given had I of been on a track, becuase I was really only driving at 6 or 7/10s. Hope this helps you with your decision, as it's really an obvious one.

[NI_YON_Zenki]

Well, bumpsteer occurs when you are driving. as your suspensions is setup depending on the stiffness of the setup you run this will happen when you turn into an apex and your tire(s) catch a small hole or some type of circumstance that effects the steering while you are driving, primarily, bumpsteer happens when you are in steering motion, typically not to happen when you are driving in a straight line, when drifting, you must be careful when you are in tandem and are trying to stay on your partners ass, only because you force yourself to cut the apex short, thus sending your opposite wheel into the apex's dip, thus the bumpsteer occurs!. .. .there it is. as best explained by Busted_Lips

Feel free to provide further information if I have missed something
. .. .IMO even though I've snapped em' I ahve to give love to the Teins once again, they're the OG's of counter steer love makin'

[TheWolf]

Actually NI_YON_Zenki you are wrong.. bumpsteer is this.. your tie rod ends are set at droop from the factory so that as the suspension is compressed.. (pannic stop etc) the front develops toe in because the rod goes from droop to parrallel. Almost forces the car to drive straight.. When you lower your suspension you run into "bumpsteer" adjustment and what happens then is that as your suspension compresses you develop toe out and quite a twitchy ride... Mine is laggy in that I feel the car doesn't respond like a direct link to the wheel. I should throughly inspect my Rack bushings and ball joints... and I agree while the TEIN rods solve the slide angle and provide a stronger part but lack of bumpsteer adjustment has me going towards the SPL's.

[Wiisass]

Alright, well you're both wrong in terms of what bumpsteer is. Bumpsteer is simple, it's the change in toe with vertical wheel travel. I don't know for certain if these cars are set up with mild or no bumpsteer from the factory, but from the looks of the suspension, it's not much at all. The Wolf, you kinda had the right idea for a little, but then missed it at the end.

Bumpsteer occurs because the wheel and the tie rod are following different arcs. Meaning that the lca and the tie rod are changing lengths at different rates which cause a difference of forces at the spindle. So essentially with a gain of toe in, the tie rod is pushing the back of the wheel out when the wheel moves up. This happens all the time, whenever there is any suspension movement, it's very noticeable on rough pavement, but is occuring all the time.

Bumpsteer adjustment can take place in to locations on the car. The first and most common is at the tie rod end. The spacers added to the tie rod end, space down the tie rod so it is closer to being parallel with the lower control arm. This will allow both arms to travel similar arcs. Bumpsteer can also be adjusted by shimming the inboard pivot point, like most of the steering spacers do. But these usually negatively affect the bumpsteer curve. So by adding these spacers you're adding some bumpsteer instead of helping to remove it. But basically, if you were trying to shim this inboard point, you would want the pivots of both the tie rod and the lower control arm to be along the same longitudinal line.

But in general, bumpsteer is just a kinematic thing. The real determination of bumpsteer, without actually measuring it on the car, has to do with the instant centers and relative motion of all the suspension members. But that's a little harder to explain here, and the above explanation should be more than enough for now. The rear though, is a whole different story, but I doubt most people even realize the effect of bumpsteer on the rear of the car.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

Alright, well you're both wrong in terms of what bumpsteer is. Bumpsteer is simple, it's the change in toe with vertical wheel travel. I don't know for certain if these cars are set up with mild or no bumpsteer from the factory, but from the looks of the suspension, it's not much at all. The Wolf, you kinda had the right idea for a little, but then missed it at the end.

Bumpsteer occurs because the wheel and the tie rod are following different arcs. Meaning that the lca and the tie rod are changing lengths at different rates which cause a difference of forces at the spindle. So essentially with a gain of toe in, the tie rod is pushing the back of the wheel out when the wheel moves up. This happens all the time, whenever there is any suspension movement, it's very noticeable on rough pavement, but is occuring all the time.

Bumpsteer adjustment can take place in to locations on the car. The first and most common is at the tie rod end. The spacers added to the tie rod end, space down the tie rod so it is closer to being parallel with the lower control arm. This will allow both arms to travel similar arcs. Bumpsteer can also be adjusted by shimming the inboard pivot point, like most of the steering spacers do. But these usually negatively affect the bumpsteer curve. So by adding these spacers you're adding some bumpsteer instead of helping to remove it. But basically, if you were trying to shim this inboard point, you would want the pivots of both the tie rod and the lower control arm to be along the same longitudinal line.

But in general, bumpsteer is just a kinematic thing. The real determination of bumpsteer, without actually measuring it on the car, has to do with the instant centers and relative motion of all the suspension members. But that's a little harder to explain here, and the above explanation should be more than enough for now. The rear though, is a whole different story, but I doubt most people even realize the effect of bumpsteer on the rear of the car.

Very technical and in-depth. Would probably be hard to understand w/o diagrams and basic understanding of suspension principles.

Good shot nonetheless.

[g6civcx]

Bumpsteer can happen regardless of steering angle. If you go straight and hit a bump, it can rip the steering wheel out of your hands and even break your thumb. This is why you are taught to grip the wheel loosely with a relaxed grip.

Bumpsteer happens due to what's called a scrub radius. This is how you measure the scrub radius.

Your Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) is an imaginary line that extends straight down your strut to the ground. From the point where the SAI meets the ground, measure the distance from that point to where the centre of the tyre is. If this distance is positive, you have a positive scrub radius.

A positive scrub radius causes bumpsteer because when you hit a bump and the suspension compresses, the scrub radius allows the bump forces to use the control arm to apply torque to the steering pivot, thus jolting the wheel from your hand. The longer the scrub radius, the worse the bumpsteer because the torque arm will be longer, allowing the bump forces greater mechanical advantage to jolt the wheel.

The way to eliminate bumpsteer is to zero out the scrub radius by making various adjustments to the front suspension, but you are limited to what the factory gave you in most cases.

[Wiisass]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

Bumpsteer can happen regardless of steering angle. If you go straight and hit a bump, it can rip the steering wheel out of your hands and even break your thumb. This is why you are taught to grip the wheel loosely with a relaxed grip.

Bumpsteer happens due to what's called a scrub radius. This is how you measure the scrub radius.

Your Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) is an imaginary line that extends straight down your strut to the ground. From the point where the SAI meets the ground, measure the distance from that point to where the centre of the tyre is. If this distance is positive, you have a positive scrub radius.

A positive scrub radius causes bumpsteer because when you hit a bump and the suspension compresses, the scrub radius allows the bump forces to use the control arm to apply torque to the steering pivot, thus jolting the wheel from your hand. The longer the scrub radius, the worse the bumpsteer because the torque arm will be longer, allowing the bump forces greater mechanical advantage to jolt the wheel.

The way to eliminate bumpsteer is to zero out the scrub radius by making various adjustments to the front suspension, but you are limited to what the factory gave you in most cases.

Nope.

What you just described is an effect of scrub radius, but that's not bumpsteer. BUmpsteer is what I described above. You described the effects of an increased scrub radius on wheel feedback. But scrub radius isn't really that big of a deal, it does affect rough road tracking and self-aligning torque but doesn't have anything to do with the kinematics of the suspensios whic is what bumpsteer is.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

Nope.

What you just described is an effect of scrub radius, but that's not bumpsteer. BUmpsteer is what I described above. You described the effects of an increased scrub radius on wheel feedback. But scrub radius isn't really that big of a deal, it does affect rough road tracking and self-aligning torque but doesn't have anything to do with the kinematics of the suspensios whic is what bumpsteer is.

You are correct in some sense. Perhaps we all should consult the motorsport engineering textbook.

Scrub radius is still important. A seat-of-the-pants feel for scrub radius is by road feel. As scrub radius, and hence bumpsteer, is decreased, road feel is also decreased.

Your description of the conflict between tie rod and control arm arcs is correct. This can cause momentary and differential toe changes between the two wheels. This ultimately creates the necessary moments for bumpsteer.

[Wiisass]

I am a motorsports engineering textbook. I'm not saying the scrub radius doesn't do anything, I'm just saying it's not as important as most people think it is. A greater scrub radius will give more feedback at the wheel because the moment arm for the self-aligning torque is increased for longitudinal accelerations. But bumpsteer is kinematic meaning the if the force applied at the contact patch is 1lb or 1000lbs it's not goign to be any different.

Just look at the bumpsteer measuring plates made by companies like longacre. They'll usually suggecst using a metal plate in place of the wheel to better measure bumpsteer. This shows that scrub radius doesn't matter.

The only way I can see that you're connecting bumpsteer and scrub radius is with the road feel. It's true that a greater scrub radius could amplify the feeling of bumpsteer at the steering wheel but that doesn't mean that the actual bumpsteer is any greater than it was before.

I think you might just be taking the name too literally. Bumpsteer doesn't just mean for bumps. It's the same as ride and roll steer. It's simply the change in toe over the entire range of vertical motion and a function of the kinematics of the suspenions. It's physically measured in a quasi-static method that has nothing to do with the forces applied at the contact patch.

I hope this clears everything up.

[DoriftoSlut]

g6civicx, Wiisass is right. Stop trying to argue, its making you look stupid.

As for the tie rods... I'm running the SPL jams and you'd be stupid not to. I test fit these for Kuah back when he was developing them. z32 inners are sweet. The stock Z32 outers are also suffecient (in beefiness) but like he said, i had to bore the spindle hole slightly. I'm not sure if i needed to do that, in retrospect, but i felt like there should be more threads above the spindle for the castle nut that what i had.

Done.

[TheWolf]

I find it quite um... reassuring that SPL is adding their two cents to my thread... I guess they mightmake me a customer once I sober up...