Importing cars from Japan to North America?

[VERTiG0]

I wanna know your experiences with importing cars from Japan to the USA or Canada.

I'd like to know the hassles involved, the costs, amount of paperwork, who shipped the vehicle, where you brought it from, what port you had it taken into, steps in legalizing the car for USA/Canada, insuring them, etc.

Any experiences you have at all, I wanna hear them.  

Thanks guys/gals.

[HippoSleek]

Join the miltary or be prepared to start a business that requires so much work that you have to charge 160% of the car's retail price to come NEAR breaking even in the near future.  Otherwise, it is highly unlikely that you will EVER get it through customs.  Really, you are better off getting bent over by MotoRex.

[VERTiG0]

Then how does Motorex do it so successfully?

{edit} According to the customs people and Ministry of Transportation people here in Canada, it is MUCH cheaper to import vehicles that have a North American equivalent (Silvia/180SX = 240SX, Civic = Civic, Integra = Integra, etc.).

[wherezmytofu]

how about a shell...like no engine and tranny?....or maybe a car that isnt a sports car like say a daihatsu?.....3 times lower then ulev rating?

[tnord]

here's what i've been thinking about. we can't drive cars here because they don't meet safety or emissions standards right. (i have no idea if the whole left hand drive thing is a problem or not) well, if all you were using it for is a race car, then there shouldn't be any problem. race cars don't have to meet any kind of safety standard other than the usual roll cage/harness stuff that has to be installed anyway. there aren't any emissions requirements on them either. you wouldn't have any problems with cops cause you'd toss the car on a trailer and tow it to the track. so who would catch you? and why would it even be illegal? so why not fly over to europe, buy a 200sx, escort cosworth, or whatever the hell you want, and toss it on the next boat to new york, pick it up, and just use it for a track car?

[drift freaq]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really, you are better off getting bent over by MotoRex. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I wish people would stop bashing MotoRex. Do you guys know how much time and effort those guys go through to get a Skyline stateside legal?? I bet you don't, so you should not be saying they bend people over. Fact is a R34 GTR in Japan is a 60K car to begin with now add in shipping, CARB ,DOT, and all the work to do it and $115,000 is not unfair its what it costs!
You guys act like all the Analog Heaven synth geeks who want ultra rare synths but can't go out and find them and when someone does they balk at the price because its to expensive. Guess what the person who found that ultra rare synth went through alot of hassle to find it. He deserves a markup for his time and effort . Same goes for MotoRex . Until you can say I can do it myself and save money you should not dis their pricing . <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'>

[VERTiG0]

I agree with drift freaq. &nbsp;I totally respect Motorex for the huge amount of work they do to get a Skyline over and legalized.

[XylathaneGTR]

MotoRex is actually a Dealership. &nbsp;Which is why they are so succsessfull at importing Skylines and Nissans

They have crash tested All 3 skylines, and legally clear each one with the gov't ect.
The car is actually on american soil 2-3 months before its on the truck to your house.
www.motorex.net &nbsp;
After a car is 15 years or older, as far as i know, you can LEGALLY import it yourself, and not have to do all that emissions shit. &nbsp;(i think anyway, not 100% sure on that)

There are some companys in japan that do throw their cars on the boat and float them over, but after its at the docks, the rest is up to you.

[luey02]

Motorex better start selling their skylines cuz I hear the r35 are comin to the states.. &nbsp;bad move for importin them now Moto!

[tnord]

why was this a bad move? there was a high demand for a product and no supply. i'm sure there was a lot of startup costs, but i'm also sure they're making plenty of money. and even if the skyline comes stateside they'll just liquidate and move on to something else.........silvia perhaps?

[luey02]

stop tryin to start conflicts tnord, all I'm sayin they wouldn't be making as much money if the r35 comes.. backoff son..

[drift into a curb]

To explain to the people that aren't informed about legalizing the skyline. &nbsp;Motorex has to go through the crash tests to make the skyline legal which can be quite expensive..

BUT I was wondering, did you guys know that Motorex buys, "fixes", and sells skylines that have salvage titles and ones with shit titles? &nbsp;They claim to strip the interior and redo the supports in the cars, but they just weld in the side impact beams.. change the bumpers to shock absorbing bumpers, supposedly reprogram the ecu, change the speedometer to mph, and add a brake light.

Wow, yeah that's a huge amount of work... ripping people off.

[VERTiG0]

Skylines since '93 I believe have all had side-impact beams installed from the factory. &nbsp;But yeah, I suppose the pre-93 Skylines would have to have this done.

That crash-testing cost Motorex a friggin fortune, and they were the only company willing to pay for the enormous cost of doing it.

[drift into a curb]

I heard that it was since 95 that the skylines had the impact beams, but I could very well be wrong. &nbsp;

They didn't crash alot of cars, just a few. &nbsp;I don't think that justifies the 100% markup on the price of a new skyline, when it's a USED skyline, especially the fact they sell cars with a salvage title.

[junia]

I've helped a friend ship a car back to the states a few years ago. &nbsp;The cost is not that bad if you're in the military because you don't have to pay for the shipping if you're overseas for more than two years. &nbsp;All you have to do is pay the registered importer the money he's charging you to go thru all the crap to make your car legal.

[yenpit]

gotta agree......MotoRex sells a very rare and desirable product that only a few can afford. supply & demand.

i imported a new body shell for a Mini Cooper some years ago. we brought it into the US in a container full of new Jaguar, MG etc parts piled around it (worked for an importer at the time). the shell had a Rover part number and everything. US customs got the container, opened it to check the contents, saw the shell and all the parts, slammed the doors and locked it up for further investigation! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'> took us 3 weeks to convince em it wasn't a car disassembled in a container (black/grey market). we finally got em to see it was just a "replacement part" to restore a rusted out classic car <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'> . boss wasn't too happy with me <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':blush:'> hehe

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (drift freaq @ Mar. 22 2002,1:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really, you are better off getting bent over by MotoRex. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I wish people would stop bashing MotoRex. Do you guys know how much time and effort those guys go through to get a Skyline stateside legal?? I bet you don't, so you should not be saying they bend people over. Fact is a R34 GTR in Japan is a 60K car to begin with now add in shipping, CARB ,DOT, and all the work to do it and $115,000 is not unfair its what it costs!
You guys act like all the Analog Heaven synth geeks who want ultra rare synths but can't go out and find them and when someone does they balk at the price because its to expensive. Guess what the person who found that ultra rare synth went through alot of hassle to find it. He deserves a markup for his time and effort . Same goes for MotoRex . Until you can say I can do it myself and save money you should not dis their pricing . <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Take a second look at my post and see what comes before it before you give me the &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'> &nbsp;face there tough guy &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/satisfied.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':satisfied:'> &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

Note that I said at charging 160% of retail, they will eventually turn a profit. &nbsp;That is the reality of the business. &nbsp;I'm not saying there in it to screw you, that's just the way it works out. &nbsp;No R34 is worth 911 prices, IMHO - so you ARE getting bent over. &nbsp;BUT - that's what it takes to get one here, so that's the best you can hope for... well, that and some lube. &nbsp;Supply and demand &nbsp;

Travis - customs is worried you will try to put it on the road. &nbsp;I know there is a nice Evo around here, but the guy never brings it out b/c if they catch him, it gets crushed!! &nbsp;

Military shipments have special titles. &nbsp;You can run it as long as you own it. &nbsp;You can never sell it. &nbsp;If you do and they find it, it gets crushed!

[thich]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (luey02 @ Mar. 22 2002,2:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">stop tryin to start conflicts tnord, all I'm sayin they wouldn't be making as much money if the r35 comes.. backoff son..</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I disagree.
I heard that the V35 will be in the +$150k region... anyone confirm? It's supposed to compete w/ 911s i think...
as well, the previous GTRs have been known for their performance figures etc., no one has driven a V35 yet and no one knows how well it handles. 400HP and 395lbs of tq... much more different than the 280PS that came in the previous R's.

[XylathaneGTR]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (thich @ Mar. 22 2002,6:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (luey02 @ Mar. 22 2002,2:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">stop tryin to start conflicts tnord, all I'm sayin they wouldn't be making as much money if the r35 comes.. backoff son..</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I disagree.
I heard that the V35 will be in the +$150k region... anyone confirm? It's supposed to compete w/ 911s i think...
as well, the previous GTRs have been known for their performance figures etc., no one has driven a V35 yet and no one knows how well it handles. 400HP and 395lbs of tq... much more different than the 280PS that came in the previous R's.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Skylines were WAYYYYYYYYYY more capable of over 280ps (around 270ish HP). &nbsp;They had to be tuned down for japanese Government regulations (sorta like emissions standards over here...but not really...)
the v35? &nbsp;I saw somethinga bout it so long ago...in like october...but havn't heard much about it since...like, Unveiling at an AutoShow or something?
can anyone post any links to it?
150k...for a Skyline? ouch...still the 400hp would be nice...is that at the Flywheel or at Wheels?

[XylathaneGTR]

also, MotoRex CANNONT import their cars directly to canada...In the rare case that the buyer resides in canada...the car must first have all the shit in the US done to it...and Then, it must be cleared with canadian customs...which is rare that it will happen...blah blah blah...and it takes freaking forever.

[thich]

I didn't mean that the older GTRs were incapable of anything over 280PS.. I was referring to stock-for-stock.. the new V35 is a different breed in its own right.
it's about 400hp to the crank (i think... the japanese words don't help.) <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

[junia]

All japanese cars are limited to &nbsp;280HP. &nbsp;The R32 has potential to run 400HP on the stock engine and turbos. &nbsp;The R32 was built for the old Group A races in the early 90's. &nbsp;Don't forget about all the other nice skylines that came before that one, tekkamen, japan, kenmary,hakosuka,newman,GTS-R, and all the other ones including the stationwagons(seen them drifiting before thought it was pretty funny). &nbsp;Anyway if you want a legit GTR in the states you're going to pay some money. &nbsp;Imagine the old R32 still cost around 10g's so you can expect to pay up for one in the states.

[mbs13]

Im part of the cargo division for a Japanese Airline out of O'hare. ive got a few friends that work for import companies (Ocean and Air) and I can mail some customs brochures to you about importing/exporting cars. Email me at: [email protected]

[drift freaq]

hipposleek says ....
take a second look at my post and see what comes before it before you give me the face there tough guy
----------------

oh so you have to call me tough guy hahahhahhaha
-------------------------------
and once again he murmurs
Note that I said at charging 160% of retail, they will eventually turn a profit. That is the reality of the business.
-------------------------------

ok you wanna play this way . we can.
whats the retail price for a Skyline in the States? There is none . So it turns into a situation of what the market will bear. econ101
-----------------------

and he says yet more

I'm not saying there in it to screw you, that's just the way it works out. No R34 is worth 911 prices, IMHO
---------------------------------------

911's are overrated and priced IMHO
-------------------------------------

and his last but least statements

BUT - that's what it takes to get one here, so that's the best you can hope for... well, that and some lube. Supply and demand
----------------------------------
and here is where you fall all over yourself. they don't charge 160% over retail. you should do the math again .
Car costs 60K in Japan R434 GTR for example. NOw they bring it over here dot and legalize it . Now with shipping and what not that is going to be another 10K-20K on average hmmmm 115k-80K 35K profit on a 80k investment sounds like standard business to me not gross over profit.

[drift into a curb]

You guys don't realize that Motorex sells shit title cars.... jeeze, so a r34 is not gonna cost them $60k

[96SEChick]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (drift into a curb @ Mar. 24 2002,8:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You guys don't realize that Motorex sells shit title cars.... jeeze, so a r34 is not gonna cost them $60k</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I don't want to flame you, but do you have any proof of this?

[96SEChick]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (drift freaq @ Mar. 22 2002,1:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wish people would stop bashing MotoRex. Do you guys know how much time and effort those guys go through to get a Skyline stateside legal?? I bet you don't, so you should not be saying they bend people over. Fact is a R34 GTR in Japan is a 60K car to begin with now add in shipping, CARB ,DOT, and all the work to do it and $115,000 is not unfair its what it costs!
You guys act like all the Analog Heaven synth geeks who want ultra rare synths but can't go out and find them and when someone does they balk at the price because its to expensive. Guess what the person who found that ultra rare synth went through alot of hassle to find it. He deserves a markup for his time and effort . Same goes for MotoRex . Until you can say I can do it myself and save money you should not dis their pricing . <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I agree 100%. &nbsp;MotoRex has to pay for their facilities--including insuring the cars and facilities out-the-ass to cover their assets against theft and vandalism, converting the cars to US specs (other than RHD/LHD conversion), buying the cars, shipping the cars, and I'm sure they have to alsogive a percentage of their profits to the US DOT and EPA and stuff. &nbsp;They also have been the only ones that have done the research and work to know what to do to convert the cars to US regulations.

Yes, they make a profit, but I believe it is well worth getting the Skyline here in the US legally (unless you buy one for racing use only and don't drive it on the streets).

[96SEChick]

For those of you who believe MotoRex is asking WAY too much for the GT-R, here are some things I found on their FAQ:

Why are your prices so high?
We have had to go though all of the mandatory requirements for the DOT and EPA . Including crash testing , air bag testing , and OBD II to meet the Code of Federal Regulation requirements. Since Nissan did not perform any of these requirements , we have independently completed the research and development. The pricing reflects our cost of reseach and development.

What modifications do you perform in order for the GT-R to meet US regulations ?
In order to protect our business interests, research and developmentcosts, the answer to this question is confidential. Some of the basic items that are changed are things such as US emissions, speedometer , crash structure , lighting , US VIN , warning , and information labels.

How long will it take to get a GT-R from when I order it ?
Shipping from Japan will take approximately 3-4 weeks. Once the vehicle arrives in the United States, it will take approximately 2 weeks to clear customs. The vehicle gets the EPA modifications then it goes to the emissions lab for testing. The EPA testing will take approximately one week. Then the vehicle has a 15 day EPA hold. Once the vehicle is at our facility again it will take us approximately 2 weeks to make the necessary modifications and take the required pictures of the vehicle. Once the vehicle has been modified , and a compliance package put together and sent to the Department of Transportation , the vehicle goes into a mandatory 30 day DOT hold.
Skylines less than 2 years old can not currently be offered for sale in California. For more information regarding this please read <http://www.arb.ca.gov/html/lawsregs.htm> . If the vehicle is for California , then after the DOT and EPA paperwork is cleared , the vehicle goes to the California referee center for California certification. After the vehicle is tested , then the vehicle once again goes into a hold - 5 days for California.

Are the engines detuned before they are imported?
No

I have a GT-R in another country, Can I import it into the States now ?
In order to import the vehicle to the US legally it must be imported though Motorex,Inc. . &nbsp;The cost for us to legalize a car for you varies from $16,000 - $25,000 depending on the year of the vehicle. This does not include shipping , bonds ,tarriffs , custom brokerage fee , and associated shipping fees.
The additional cost varies as the bond cost (450% of the value of the vehicle) , and tarriff cost(2.5% of the value of the vehicle) varies with the value of the vehicle , also shipping can be roll on/roll off or container. Expect the other costs to be $4000 - $5000 .

[wherezmytofu]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (96SEChick @ Mar. 23 2002,11:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For those of you who believe MotoRex is asking WAY too much for the GT-R, here are some things I found on their FAQ:

Why are your prices so high?
We have had to go though all of the mandatory requirements for the DOT and EPA . Including crash testing , air bag testing , and OBD II to meet the Code of Federal Regulation requirements. Since Nissan did not perform any of these requirements , we have independently completed the research and development. The pricing reflects our cost of reseach and development.

What modifications do you perform in order for the GT-R to meet US regulations ?
In order to protect our business interests, research and developmentcosts, the answer to this question is confidential. Some of the basic items that are changed are things such as US emissions, speedometer , crash structure , lighting , US VIN , warning , and information labels.

How long will it take to get a GT-R from when I order it ?
Shipping from Japan will take approximately 3-4 weeks. Once the vehicle arrives in the United States, it will take approximately 2 weeks to clear customs. The vehicle gets the EPA modifications then it goes to the emissions lab for testing. The EPA testing will take approximately one week. Then the vehicle has a 15 day EPA hold. Once the vehicle is at our facility again it will take us approximately 2 weeks to make the necessary modifications and take the required pictures of the vehicle. Once the vehicle has been modified , and a compliance package put together and sent to the Department of Transportation , the vehicle goes into a mandatory 30 day DOT hold.
Skylines less than 2 years old can not currently be offered for sale in California. For more information regarding this please read <http://www.arb.ca.gov/html/lawsregs.htm> . If the vehicle is for California , then after the DOT and EPA paperwork is cleared , the vehicle goes to the California referee center for California certification. After the vehicle is tested , then the vehicle once again goes into a hold - 5 days for California.

Are the engines detuned before they are imported?
No

I have a GT-R in another country, Can I import it into the States now ?
In order to import the vehicle to the US legally it must be imported though Motorex,Inc. . The cost for us to legalize a car for you varies from $16,000 - $25,000 depending on the year of the vehicle. This does not include shipping , bonds ,tarriffs , custom brokerage fee , and associated shipping fees.
The additional cost varies as the bond cost (450% of the value of the vehicle) , and tarriff cost(2.5% of the value of the vehicle) varies with the value of the vehicle , also shipping can be roll on/roll off or container. Expect the other costs to be $4000 - $5000 .</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i was wondering why they were marking their cars 30K over the price....cuz i stumbled on this uk used car site and r33 and r2 were going for 30-40k <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':nervous:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/notify.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':notify:'>

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (drift freaq @ Mar. 24 2002,4:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hipposleek says ....
take a second look at my post and see what comes before it before you give me the face there tough guy
----------------

oh so you have to call me tough guy hahahhahhaha
-------------------------------
and once again he murmurs
Note that I said at charging 160% of retail, they will eventually turn a profit. That is the reality of the business.
-------------------------------

ok you wanna play this way . we can.
whats the retail price for a Skyline in the States? There is none . So it turns into a situation of what the market will bear. econ101
-----------------------

and he says yet more

I'm not saying there in it to screw you, that's just the way it works out. No R34 is worth 911 prices, IMHO
---------------------------------------

911's are overrated and priced IMHO
-------------------------------------

and his last but least statements

BUT - that's what it takes to get one here, so that's the best you can hope for... well, that and some lube. Supply and demand
----------------------------------
and here is where you fall all over yourself. they don't charge 160% over retail. you should do the math again .
Car costs 60K in Japan R434 GTR for example. NOw they bring it over here dot and legalize it . Now with shipping and what not that is going to be another 10K-20K on average hmmmm 115k-80K 35K profit on a 80k investment sounds like standard business to me not gross over profit.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ugh - okay... I'll take it from the bottom up:

The website says the price is $95K for $60K car. &nbsp;That is a $35K mark up on a $60K price. &nbsp;Now, go back to the part that you quoted a bit further up and notice that I said "160% of retail" not 160% above retail. &nbsp;The math is rough, I understand, but generally a $35K price increase would make the total just over 50% additional (150% = $90K). &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/huh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':huh:'> &nbsp;(BTW: if I had used your $115K price - it would be almost 100% mark up)

Note, additionally, that the retail price stated was the price in Japan - obviously, the retail price of a Skyline in the states is whatever Motorex charges <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sigh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> &nbsp;As we agree - supply and demand.

As for a Skyline being worth the price of a 911 - well, that's a matter of taste. &nbsp;At any rate, 911's sell all over the world for about the same price, while the R34 sells for an relatively inflated sum in the US. &nbsp;If the car were worth 160% of retail - wouldn't Nissan sell it for that in the UK or Japan? &nbsp;Isn't it whatever the market will bear?

Let's face it, kids pour $20K into Civics and they are still slower than Moosetangs and not 1/2 as attractice as an M3. &nbsp;Basic supply and demand curves are out of the issue and fanatacism is in. &nbsp;"Cool" has a price - in the case of the R34, it is about 160% of international retail.

Now, my argument for why, like it or not, Motorex is on target is that they are adding value to a product that a small segment of society is willing to pay for. &nbsp;While you could have better performing cars for less money - you can only have an R34 from them. &nbsp;

Shipping and updating, however, do not cost anywhere near $20K - if it did, Motorex would NEVER make a profit. &nbsp;Don't try to tell people that it takes half of the price of the car to put a few sensors, a couple air bags and a bumper support on a car. &nbsp;It is finding out how to do this and getting it approved by the feds that is the hard part. &nbsp;The important fact that everyone is leaving out is development/ start up costs! &nbsp;

Motorex's costs were front loaded - meaning that it probably cost them US $1-2M to get ONE Skyline into the states and sold retail (no - I don't have no idea if that price is in the ball park... it's a hypothetical). &nbsp;The second one was probably $60K (car price) + maybe a few thousand for shipping and updating. &nbsp;BUT, they have to recapture that $1-2M initial expenditure if they ever want to break even. &nbsp;As a result, they charge an extra $30K/car for every car and start to finally turn a profit after selling 50-100 cars. &nbsp;After that, they either make extreme profits or lower prices to compete with other cars being sold at their non-fanatic market price. &nbsp;

That, I believe is the reality. &nbsp;That means that yes - it is a high mark up. &nbsp;Yes - some will be willing to pay it. &nbsp;No - there is nothing shady or unfair about it. &nbsp;Yes - it is a perfectly valid standard business practice. &nbsp;No - I don't think they're screwing anyone. &nbsp;Yes - I do think people are getting screwed (by themselves for willing to pay $95K for a $60K car). &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> &nbsp; What're you gonna do? &nbsp;

So there &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>