LCA's fall victim to energy suspension (2004 thread updated with 2009 information!) - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

240Stilo · 03-12-2004, 06:25 AM

I was under my car replacing the cat and decided to check out the tension rods after remembering how other threads have mentioned them cracking due to poly bushings. I found a crack on the first side and that was pretty bad on its own. Then, I look at the other side and see that it's ready to come off cuz the crack goes all the way around the bolts holding the tensionrod to LCA.

If they decide to give what will happen? I won't be waiting until this happens, but I'm curious and I will be ordering new LCA's and tension rods, maybe something adjustable who knows.

old_s13 · 03-12-2004, 08:37 AM

i havent heard anyone having this problem with the whiteline bushings btw.

- mike

240Stilo · 03-12-2004, 03:23 PM

I'm pretty sure its the design of the bushing. Energy Suspension has a big block while whiteline is angled more to the geometry of how the tension rods move. Thank for the info that was another question I was thinking about. I'm guessing adjustable tension rods won't give me that problem either.

**mrmephistopheles** · 03-13-2004, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old_s13

i havent heard anyone having this problem with the whiteline bushings btw.

- mike

I have.. luckily, not me.

Halz: that request for a fender that color will be a tall one, seeing as how that's a rare color and it was only 89-90.

240Stilo · 03-16-2004, 03:31 PM

Well I got some pics together from the lower control arm now that i have it replaced. As you can see they were ready to go. I decided to shave the poly bushings down in order to let them move around a little more. We'll see how it goes, so far so good.

gsracer · 03-12-2004, 06:03 PM

thats f***ed up i have energy suspension on my s14, is this a common problem?? is there any thign that can be done , i would think that ajustable tension rods with the solid metal would be worse on the lower control arms thogh?? whats up ..

The ROMAN · 03-12-2004, 06:57 PM

I've heard of this happening alot to stock arms. Aftermarket shouldn't be as bad, also PDM sells arms/rods with bushings pressed in already.

Halz · 03-12-2004, 07:33 PM

Unrelated, but heres an illustration of what happens when the LCA does break:

http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/09.jpg
http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/11.jpg
http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/18.jpg
http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/27.jpg
http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/40.jpg

Hydroplaned at 85mph (in the 'fast' lane) when I went over a short overpass that had collected water between the expansion joints that was in the middle of a decreasing radius bend. Put 'two off', over a 4" curb at a shallow angle, and went through the edges of some bushes, little reflectors, etc.. Dropped back down onto the shoulder, and the wheel was on its side under the car (where the dents are).
Very exciting!!
Low-depth Azenis are not really very good rain tires.. especially in surprise standing water.. especially at 85mph.. around a turn.. So. Beware the Rain Gods, and physics!

Oh, and does anyone have a fender? Color-code TH1?

gsracer · 03-12-2004, 09:30 PM

so great this seems like a big f***ing problem anybody got a soulution???

black s13 · 03-12-2004, 09:46 PM

umm, spherical bushing tc rods. or whitelines, or ive seen somepeople drill holes all the way around the bushing, to soften it up.

240Stilo · 03-12-2004, 11:41 PM

I will just shave off some of the bushing to shape it more like the whiteline bushing so it's more like a cone and less like a big cylinder of poly. This should give it more leeway but until then I found an LCA for the driver side which is the worst one.

gsracer · 03-17-2004, 10:17 AM

gues what guys i looked under my car today and sure enough cracked in between the two holes, after 6 months of street use, and 1 auto cross. with stock ride hieght the whole time. Im gonna replace them this weekend with some used ones i got, im gonna shave the bushing and drill a couple holes in to it like 5 i guess, like a revovler hope fully this will fix it.

now has any one heard of this happening with sepherical t/c rods, i wouldnt think so because they wont bind the suspension because there sepherical and such , but now that i think about it, they are medal and have no give whats so ever, what do you guys think,,,,

Var · 03-17-2004, 11:19 AM

Before i bought the bushings from pdm i actually e-mailed don nimi and he says he has never heard of any problems like that with the 240, only the datsun 510 cause the 240 has solid steel tension rods. He says even in front end crashed he hasnt seen one break, only bend. And i would also HOPE that the spherical ones wouldnt break or else they are a waste of money,

gsracer · 03-17-2004, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westboroughpimp

Before i bought the bushings from pdm i actually e-mailed don nimi and he says he has never heard of any problems like that with the 240, only the datsun 510 cause the 240 has solid steel tension rods. He says even in front end crashed he hasnt seen one break, only bend. And i would also HOPE that the spherical ones wouldnt break or else they are a waste of money,

its not the tension rods that break its the lower control arms that break

Var · 03-17-2004, 11:43 AM

ahh. so if you got spherical tension rods would your LCA's be more likely to break?

gsracer · 03-17-2004, 11:49 AM

exactttllyyy!!!

i would think NO because the sepherical bearing would allow the LCA to move normall with out binding, but then again it will be metal to metal so more stress transfred in to the LCA. thoughtsss????/

Replicant_S14 · 03-17-2004, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsracer

exactttllyyy!!!
.. but then again it will be metal to metal so more stress transfred in to the LCA. thoughtsss????/

Probably, but the damaged that I've seen to LCAs looks more fatique oriented than impact. Sorta like bending a paperclip back and forth until it breaks. The TC rod, heim joint type or not, is a flat bar on the LCA end. I guess idealy you'd want another axis at the LCA attachment point. Like a ball joint or something like that.

Var · 03-17-2004, 12:02 PM

i got a thought! buy SPL pro LCA's. A steal at only 600 bucks!

gsracer · 03-17-2004, 12:47 PM

i guess my reall question hear is will this damage still occur with aftermarkey T/C rods, because even tohugh im gonna shave and drill my bushing i dont want to risk it.

SimpleS14 · 03-17-2004, 02:21 PM

wow...I have never seen something like that happen before. So is this the same case with other T/C rods...such as TIEN and SPL?

*sykikchimp* · 03-17-2004, 05:08 PM

This is not a problem with spherical bearings.

The problem with the poly bushings is that poly doesn't have the ability to flex around an axis like rubber or spherical bearings would. SO, wwhen the LCA moves through it's arc, the bushing resist's the motion up and down b/c it is clamped, and held in place b/w the mounting points. Thus causing the T/C rod mount to bind on the LCA, and eventually rip free. Unless the poly bushing can rotate on the metal insert it will cause this problem, no matter who makes it.

I've read that drilling the holes in it like a revolver allows the bushing to flex much better, and makes them safer, but if the mount is still clamping on the edges of the bushing, you'll still get binding. I would think drilling them would also lessen their effectiveness of maintaining suspension geometry under load, but probably not enough to matter.

Something else to help prevent this is to make sure you really lube up the metal insert before you put it inside the bushings. Like lots, and lots of grease. Poly has to be able to move freely.

Either way you go there are pro's and cons.

This is the reason Nismo uses hard rubber bushings instead of poly. Rubber allows axial twist.

edit- just thought I would add that poly LCA bushings further exacerbate this problem.

gsracer · 03-17-2004, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sykikchimp

This is not a problem with spherical bearings.

The problem with the poly bushings is that poly doesn't have the ability to flex around an axis like rubber or spherical bearings would. SO, wwhen the LCA moves through it's arc, the bushing resist's the motion up and down b/c it is clamped, and held in place b/w the mounting points. Thus causing the T/C rod mount to bind on the LCA, and eventually rip free. Unless the poly bushing can rotate on the metal insert it will cause this problem, no matter who makes it.

I've read that drilling the holes in it like a revolver allows the bushing to flex much better, and makes them safer, but if the mount is still clamping on the edges of the bushing, you'll still get binding. I would think drilling them would also lessen their effectiveness of maintaining suspension geometry under load, but probably not enough to matter.

Something else to help prevent this is to make sure you really lube up the metal insert before you put it inside the bushings. Like lots, and lots of grease. Poly has to be able to move freely.

Either way you go there are pro's and cons.

This is the reason Nismo uses hard rubber bushings instead of poly. Rubber allows axial twist.

edit- just thought I would add that poly LCA bushings further exacerbate this problem.

'
thanks for the response i will be drilling them i was thinking 5 holes in total with one about every 70 degrees ,

in addition to this i was gonna take on my grinder and grind the part that clamps on tho the bushing more conical so that the only part that touches the mount is the metal insert in the middle where the bolt is. what do you think

240Stilo · 03-17-2004, 05:43 PM

gsracer: I'm pretty sure you'd be fine just shaving off the sides.

When I took a look at the tension rod bracket I saw that the poly bushing really grinded down the bracket to until the silver showed. You could tell that it was the back semi-circle half of the bushing that was really going to work. From this I assume I could have been safe enough by just shaving the back half but whatever, it was fun watching the poly fly when it met the wirebrush on the bench grinder. Haha.

If you do the revolver type hole drilling won't it cause for more travel forward and backward from the LCA from hard braking or accel? I'm assuming it would if the holes are drilled large enough.

Var · 03-17-2004, 05:35 PM

so i got poly t/c rods and poly LCA's and i just bought 2-way lsd to drift with. hmmm maybe i should change to power brace/spherical rods before some shit goes down.

gsracer · 03-17-2004, 05:45 PM

im gonna do the holes small enough just to soften it up a bit

SimpleS14 · 03-17-2004, 08:55 PM

newbie question: what are spherical rods? are SPLs spherical?

*sykikchimp* · 03-18-2004, 07:26 AM

Spherical rod ends, rod bearings, Heim Joints, Pillowball's... all the same thing.

Gracer - those are both good ideas.

SimpleS14 · 03-18-2004, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sykikchimp

Spherical rod ends, rod bearings, Heim Joints, Pillowball's... all the same thing.

.....

.......

240Stilo · 04-05-2004, 04:43 PM

UPDATE!

I e-mailed courtesyparts.com about my problem with the bushings just to give them warning that the poly bushings might be causing the same problem to other customers. They responded by saying, "We believe that you have other problems. The bushings are urethane and would give long before the metal would." Soo, now I'm lost because I'm still pretty sure it was due to the poly bushings that my LCA was broken. Any ideas of what else might have made this occur?

taks · 04-06-2004, 03:41 AM

Question:
In which way does the bushing bind or restrict movement
From side to side? or in a 'rotational' way?

If the cracks are results from the side to side bind,
are LCAs in danger from spherical bearings when the ball is pressed against one side of the rod creating restriction of movement towards one way?
After installation of adj. tension rods and putting the car back on ground, the rod was pressed against one side and needed readjustment on ground.

03-12-2004, 06:25 AM	#1
240Stilo Junkie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Socal Age: 40 Posts: 1,160 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	LCA's fall victim to energy suspension (2004 thread updated with 2009 information!) I was under my car replacing the cat and decided to check out the tension rods after remembering how other threads have mentioned them cracking due to poly bushings. I found a crack on the first side and that was pretty bad on its own. Then, I look at the other side and see that it's ready to come off cuz the crack goes all the way around the bolts holding the tensionrod to LCA. If they decide to give what will happen? I won't be waiting until this happens, but I'm curious and I will be ordering new LCA's and tension rods, maybe something adjustable who knows. __________________ -Juan

03-12-2004, 03:23 PM	#3
240Stilo Junkie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Socal Age: 40 Posts: 1,160 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I'm pretty sure its the design of the bushing. Energy Suspension has a big block while whiteline is angled more to the geometry of how the tension rods move. Thank for the info that was another question I was thinking about. I'm guessing adjustable tension rods won't give me that problem either. __________________ -Juan

03-16-2004, 03:31 PM	#5
240Stilo Junkie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Socal Age: 40 Posts: 1,160 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Well I got some pics together from the lower control arm now that i have it replaced. As you can see they were ready to go. I decided to shave the poly bushings down in order to let them move around a little more. We'll see how it goes, so far so good. __________________ -Juan

03-12-2004, 11:41 PM	#11
240Stilo Junkie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Socal Age: 40 Posts: 1,160 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I will just shave off some of the bushing to shape it more like the whiteline bushing so it's more like a cone and less like a big cylinder of poly. This should give it more leeway but until then I found an LCA for the driver side which is the worst one. __________________ -Juan

03-17-2004, 11:19 AM	#13
Var Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Norcal Age: 42 Posts: 5,032 Trader Rating: (0) Rides Gallery: Var Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Before i bought the bushings from pdm i actually e-mailed don nimi and he says he has never heard of any problems like that with the 240, only the datsun 510 cause the 240 has solid steel tension rods. He says even in front end crashed he hasnt seen one break, only bend. And i would also HOPE that the spherical ones wouldnt break or else they are a waste of money, __________________ Hi

03-12-2004, 08:37 AM	#2
old_s13 BANNED Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Los Angeles, CA. Posts: 2,824 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	i havent heard anyone having this problem with the whiteline bushings btw. - mike

03-12-2004, 06:03 PM	#6
gsracer Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami Age: 40 Posts: 1,590 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	thats f***ed up i have energy suspension on my s14, is this a common problem?? is there any thign that can be done , i would think that ajustable tension rods with the solid metal would be worse on the lower control arms thogh?? whats up ..

03-12-2004, 06:57 PM	#7
The ROMAN Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: NJ Age: 41 Posts: 730 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	I've heard of this happening alot to stock arms. Aftermarket shouldn't be as bad, also PDM sells arms/rods with bushings pressed in already.

03-12-2004, 07:33 PM	#8
Halz BANNED Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: bay area Age: 40 Posts: 214 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Unrelated, but heres an illustration of what happens when the LCA does break: http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/09.jpg http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/11.jpg http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/18.jpg http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/27.jpg http://halzmann2.homestead.com/files/40.jpg Hydroplaned at 85mph (in the 'fast' lane) when I went over a short overpass that had collected water between the expansion joints that was in the middle of a decreasing radius bend. Put 'two off', over a 4" curb at a shallow angle, and went through the edges of some bushes, little reflectors, etc.. Dropped back down onto the shoulder, and the wheel was on its side under the car (where the dents are). Very exciting!! Low-depth Azenis are not really very good rain tires.. especially in surprise standing water.. especially at 85mph.. around a turn.. So. Beware the Rain Gods, and physics! Oh, and does anyone have a fender? Color-code TH1?

03-12-2004, 09:30 PM	#9
gsracer Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami Age: 40 Posts: 1,590 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	so great this seems like a big f***ing problem anybody got a soulution???

03-12-2004, 09:46 PM	#10
black s13 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: C'ville VA Age: 38 Posts: 555 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	umm, spherical bushing tc rods. or whitelines, or ive seen somepeople drill holes all the way around the bushing, to soften it up.

03-17-2004, 10:17 AM	#12
gsracer Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami Age: 40 Posts: 1,590 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	gues what guys i looked under my car today and sure enough cracked in between the two holes, after 6 months of street use, and 1 auto cross. with stock ride hieght the whole time. Im gonna replace them this weekend with some used ones i got, im gonna shave the bushing and drill a couple holes in to it like 5 i guess, like a revovler hope fully this will fix it. now has any one heard of this happening with sepherical t/c rods, i wouldnt think so because they wont bind the suspension because there sepherical and such , but now that i think about it, they are medal and have no give whats so ever, what do you guys think,,,,

03-17-2004, 11:43 AM	#15
Var Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Norcal Age: 42 Posts: 5,032 Trader Rating: (0) Rides Gallery: Var Feedback Score: 0 reviews	ahh. so if you got spherical tension rods would your LCA's be more likely to break? __________________ Hi

03-17-2004, 11:49 AM	#16
gsracer Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami Age: 40 Posts: 1,590 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	exactttllyyy!!! i would think NO because the sepherical bearing would allow the LCA to move normall with out binding, but then again it will be metal to metal so more stress transfred in to the LCA. thoughtsss????/

03-17-2004, 12:02 PM	#18
Var Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Norcal Age: 42 Posts: 5,032 Trader Rating: (0) Rides Gallery: Var Feedback Score: 0 reviews	i got a thought! buy SPL pro LCA's. A steal at only 600 bucks! __________________ Hi

03-17-2004, 12:47 PM	#19
gsracer Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami Age: 40 Posts: 1,590 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	i guess my reall question hear is will this damage still occur with aftermarkey T/C rods, because even tohugh im gonna shave and drill my bushing i dont want to risk it.

03-17-2004, 02:21 PM	#20
SimpleS14 Post Whore! Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Philly Age: 41 Posts: 9,185 Trader Rating: (0) Rides Gallery: SimpleS14 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	wow...I have never seen something like that happen before. So is this the same case with other T/C rods...such as TIEN and SPL? __________________ *Goals are dreams with a deadline.* L.H.O.O.Q.

03-17-2004, 05:08 PM	#21
sykikchimp WOW addicted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the moon Age: 43 Posts: 6,525 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	This is not a problem with spherical bearings. The problem with the poly bushings is that poly doesn't have the ability to flex around an axis like rubber or spherical bearings would. SO, wwhen the LCA moves through it's arc, the bushing resist's the motion up and down b/c it is clamped, and held in place b/w the mounting points. Thus causing the T/C rod mount to bind on the LCA, and eventually rip free. Unless the poly bushing can rotate on the metal insert it will cause this problem, no matter who makes it. I've read that drilling the holes in it like a revolver allows the bushing to flex much better, and makes them safer, but if the mount is still clamping on the edges of the bushing, you'll still get binding. I would think drilling them would also lessen their effectiveness of maintaining suspension geometry under load, but probably not enough to matter. Something else to help prevent this is to make sure you really lube up the metal insert before you put it inside the bushings. Like lots, and lots of grease. Poly has to be able to move freely. Either way you go there are pro's and cons. This is the reason Nismo uses hard rubber bushings instead of poly. Rubber allows axial twist. edit- just thought I would add that poly LCA bushings further exacerbate this problem. __________________ Last edited by sykikchimp; 03-17-2004 at 05:25 PM..

03-17-2004, 05:43 PM	#23
240Stilo Junkie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Socal Age: 40 Posts: 1,160 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	gsracer: I'm pretty sure you'd be fine just shaving off the sides. When I took a look at the tension rod bracket I saw that the poly bushing really grinded down the bracket to until the silver showed. You could tell that it was the back semi-circle half of the bushing that was really going to work. From this I assume I could have been safe enough by just shaving the back half but whatever, it was fun watching the poly fly when it met the wirebrush on the bench grinder. Haha. If you do the revolver type hole drilling won't it cause for more travel forward and backward from the LCA from hard braking or accel? I'm assuming it would if the holes are drilled large enough. __________________ -Juan

03-17-2004, 05:35 PM	#24
Var Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Norcal Age: 42 Posts: 5,032 Trader Rating: (0) Rides Gallery: Var Feedback Score: 0 reviews	so i got poly t/c rods and poly LCA's and i just bought 2-way lsd to drift with. hmmm maybe i should change to power brace/spherical rods before some shit goes down. __________________ Hi

03-17-2004, 05:45 PM	#25
gsracer Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami Age: 40 Posts: 1,590 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	im gonna do the holes small enough just to soften it up a bit

03-17-2004, 08:55 PM	#26
SimpleS14 Post Whore! Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Philly Age: 41 Posts: 9,185 Trader Rating: (0) Rides Gallery: SimpleS14 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	newbie question: what are spherical rods? are SPLs spherical? __________________ *Goals are dreams with a deadline.* L.H.O.O.Q.

03-18-2004, 07:26 AM	#27
sykikchimp WOW addicted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the moon Age: 43 Posts: 6,525 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Spherical rod ends, rod bearings, Heim Joints, Pillowball's... all the same thing. Gracer - those are both good ideas. __________________

04-05-2004, 04:43 PM	#29
240Stilo Junkie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Socal Age: 40 Posts: 1,160 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	UPDATE! I e-mailed courtesyparts.com about my problem with the bushings just to give them warning that the poly bushings might be causing the same problem to other customers. They responded by saying, "We believe that you have other problems. The bushings are urethane and would give long before the metal would." Soo, now I'm lost because I'm still pretty sure it was due to the poly bushings that my LCA was broken. Any ideas of what else might have made this occur? __________________ -Juan

04-06-2004, 03:41 AM	#30
taks Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: 253 Posts: 5 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Question: In which way does the bushing bind or restrict movement From side to side? or in a 'rotational' way? If the cracks are results from the side to side bind, are LCAs in danger from spherical bearings when the ball is pressed against one side of the rod creating restriction of movement towards one way? After installation of adj. tension rods and putting the car back on ground, the rod was pressed against one side and needed readjustment on ground.