Call me a noob, but spent 4 hours on Tie Rod today

[dongoesby]

I'm in a learning process of hobbying in working on my own car (S14). After numberous errors and trails for removing the old stock tie rods and installing the new SPL tie rods, I spent another 6 hour on adjusting the toe.

There are couple interesting, yet weird, problems come up. First of all, the right wheel is more "toe in" than the left wheel when the left and the right tie rods are preset to the same length (approx 13-1/4", stock length). The result in a test drive is a lot of front tire roar when turning (even in a slight turn), and a lot of free play on the streering wheel. The problem turned a lot better by solely shortening the right tie rod length by 1/8". It killed the front tire roar and the free play of the steering wheel. However, the car leans toward the left now.

Second, the SPL tie rods w/ z33 inner provide a major increase in steering agle (steering ratio). While the steering ratio only change when changing the privot point, the length of the tie rods can only change toe; however, my right wheel seem to get more steering angle than the left. The right wheel is noticebly closer to the tension rod and inner wall when fully turned (observed while the car is lifted up). It even rubs the tension rod in the beginning when the right tie rods were set up 1/4" longer (more toe-in).

Third, the car makes a sound when I turned the wheel to limit and the engine sounded stalling at that same time.

1) Base on the problem above, is something wrong with my car?

2) I have done all the measurement by eyeball. I turned the knuckle a lot when the car is turned off, is the steering porportion messed up?

3) I tried to match the steering wheel by turning the knuckle to the limt (ie full )right, then turn on the engine on, then turn the steering wheel full right. Is this able to synchronize the steering with the wheel to the steering wheel?

4) Theoretically, suppose both the left and right tie rods be the same length?

Possible solution I can think of: I have installed a spacer (1/4" thick) to the inner tie rod, but I did not remove the locking plate. Would that be the problem of causing different steering angle for left and right wheels?

[S14DB]

Take it to an alignment shop.

[aznpoopy]

+1

for future reference

anytime you substantially change tension rod, tie rod, ruca, rear toe, rear traction rod, shock/spring/coilover and/or alter ride height, you need an alignment.

you can try to eyeball it (and some people are better at this than others), but it will typically be garbage compared to an actual alignment.

[dongoesby]

I still need to install rucas, so I'm waiting to do an alignment altogether.

Any chance, I can solve the tie rod problems?

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by dongoesby

I still need to install rucas, so I'm waiting to do an alignment altogether.

Any chance, I can solve the tie rod problems?

Go to Firestone, get lifetime alignment, go back every time you replace crap.

[SoguRacing]

Originally Posted by S14DB

Go to Firestone, get lifetime alignment, go back every time you replace crap.

true that! I believe that their lifetime alignment is about $350.

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by SoguRacing

true that! I believe that their lifetime alignment is about $350.

Holy hell, that's more then 2x what I paid. But, it pays for itself in 2 alignments.

Make sure it's a Laser rack where they put the reflective disks on your wheels not the optical with the lights on the wheels. The optical light on the front can't clear the TC rod brackets.

[projectRDM]

Agreed. No matter how accurate your measurements are you're going to be off a little without actually putting it on a frame with proper equipment.

[SoguRacing]

Your steering rack could need a rebuild.

[dongoesby]

thanks guys.

as said above, is my steer rack required a rebuild?

Has anybody consider my possible solution of removing locking plates?

[projectRDM]

Originally Posted by dongoesby

thanks guys.

as said above, is my steer rack required a rebuild?

Has anybody consider my possible solution of removing locking plates?

You won't know until it's aligned. The steering can feel dead or soft if even off just a hair, but from experience the racks on 240s aren't a common fault area so unless yours is leaking or damaged from accident I doubt it's bad.

As for the lock plates, you can leave them or trash them, your call. I always reuse them unless they're too badly bent up, if so I remove them completely.

[Dousan_PG]

i havent run those locking plates in over 5 years
useless.

[slider2828]

Firestone is only on oem suspension parts, doesn't apply to lowered cars and stuff .

[awesomenick]

Originally Posted by slider2828

Firestone is only on oem suspension parts, doesn't apply to lowered cars and stuff .

Not ALL of them. It just depends if they're dicks. Some have the same interests as us, so usually those ones will be cool about it.

[Def]

I'd bet $5 your steering wheel has been off at some time and not put on the same tooth. You can adjust a bit for that in the tierods, which is probably what you're seeing.

[aznpoopy]

for chain shops it depends on the specific store

some shops won't touch aftermarket shit at all. others say fuck it and give it a try. i've had my car denied at one pep boys and aligned at another the same day.

[Bigsyke]

Originally Posted by dongoesby

I'm in a learning process of hobbying in working on my own car (S14). After numberous errors and trails for removing the old stock tie rods and installing the new SPL tie rods, I spent another 6 hour on adjusting the toe.

There are couple interesting, yet weird, problems come up. First of all, the right wheel is more "toe in" than the left wheel when the left and the right tie rods are preset to the same length (approx 13-1/4", stock length). The result in a test drive is a lot of front tire roar when turning (even in a slight turn), and a lot of free play on the streering wheel. The problem turned a lot better by solely shortening the right tie rod length by 1/8". It killed the front tire roar and the free play of the steering wheel. However, the car leans toward the left now.

Second, the SPL tie rods w/ z33 inner provide a major increase in steering agle (steering ratio). While the steering ratio only change when changing the privot point, the length of the tie rods can only change toe; however, my right wheel seem to get more steering angle than the left. The right wheel is noticebly closer to the tension rod and inner wall when fully turned (observed while the car is lifted up). It even rubs the tension rod in the beginning when the right tie rods were set up 1/4" longer (more toe-in).

Third, the car makes a sound when I turned the wheel to limit and the engine sounded stalling at that same time.

1) Base on the problem above, is something wrong with my car?

2) I have done all the measurement by eyeball. I turned the knuckle a lot when the car is turned off, is the steering porportion messed up?

3) I tried to match the steering wheel by turning the knuckle to the limt (ie full )right, then turn on the engine on, then turn the steering wheel full right. Is this able to synchronize the steering with the wheel to the steering wheel?

4) Theoretically, suppose both the left and right tie rods be the same length?

Possible solution I can think of: I have installed a spacer (1/4" thick) to the inner tie rod, but I did not remove the locking plate. Would that be the problem of causing different steering angle for left and right wheels?

You can eyeball it pretty good if you have the old tierods out. You measure the overall length and match. If you do this, and your steering angles are still wacked out, that means your rack was never centered to begin with. You need to make sure the rack is centered, the steering wheel is centered, before you do an alignment, otherwise your steering angles would not be even.

This sounds like the steering linkage was removed at some point. If you dont care about your steering angle its not a big deal, but if you do, you need to measure the exact distances left to right the rack with rotate, and calculate center.

I knew my rack was centered when I changed my tie rods, so I matched and reinstalled. I even took apart my rack and depowered it, but since my previous tierods were the proper length, and my rack WAS centered durring the previous alignment, I was able to match old with the new and do it without an alignment without finding the center of the rack.

Pretty much the tierods force your rack to be centered via the length of the rods and wheels pushing the rack back to center- if the tierods are evenly and acurately adjusted. Your issue seems to be an install problem

[kenversusryu]

I do my own alignments. It's not 100 percent accurate as a last alignment but its doable.

Try doing your own alignment if your too cheap to get it professionally done. Measure your camber, caster and toe and see if the problem still exists.

[Bigsyke]

Originally Posted by kenversusryu

I do my own alignments. It's not 100 percent accurate as a last alignment but its doable.

Try doing your own alignment if your too cheap to get it professionally done. Measure your camber, caster and toe and see if the problem still exists.

Whats your method of doing alignments? Ive been a member on Honda-tech since 02, and the road race/autocross boys still cant get it down right.

Your frame, preload on the bushings ect ect all comes into play when doing a diy alignment.

After every adjustment, you need toe plates that swivel on top of eachother to reset the bushing load after every change. You can roll the car back and forth a few times, but that usually throws the toe/steering off. SO without toe plates, you will never get a good alignment, and probably could just eyeball the tie rods better.

S14's rear wheel base is shorter than the front wheel base, that will throw a DIY alignment off too, so you need to compensate

[kenversusryu]

Originally Posted by Bigsyke

Whats your method of doing alignments? Ive been a member on Honda-tech since 02, and the road race/autocross boys still cant get it down right.

Your frame, preload on the bushings ect ect all comes into play when doing a diy alignment.

After every adjustment, you need toe plates that swivel on top of eachother to reset the bushing load after every change. You can roll the car back and forth a few times, but that usually throws the toe/steering off. SO without toe plates, you will never get a good alignment, and probably could just eyeball the tie rods better.

S14's rear wheel base is shorter than the front wheel base, that will throw a DIY alignment off too, so you need to compensate

It's really just a temporary alignment after doing a major install like coilover, ruca, tie rod, etc.

I just use some string, a couple of levels, an even garage floor and a calculator. The concept is basically the same with the laser but like I said.. its' not as accurate.

and to answer your preload bushing question.. I do all measurements on the ground and most of the adjustments on the ground. Afterwards i always run the car around the block a few times and measure it.. it's really a tedious process for myself and it can take up to 3 or 4 hours.. But remember its all pretty temporary... I dont recommend doing it yourself especially if you want an accurate reading.

And as far as the "wheel base" question.. if your talking about the rear track and the front track.. I've already compensated for that as well. It's not quite as hard as long as you know the measurements from factory and your wheel specs.

[Def]

Put the car on some vinyl floor tiles with some dish soap and a little water and the tire will pivot freely. A quick roll back and forth is all you need if you still feel there is binding(doesn't happen with spherical rod ends/bearings though).


Toe plates that you use to measure the front toe with tape measures work well for a quick alignment. Just as accurate as the average alignment rack where the heads have been dropped/banged around etc and are never calibrated.

[Bigsyke]

^^^ that is why you need to replace the locking clips. It will be next to impossible to get the clips and tie rod aligned. The open clips will tear up the boot when it sags. No the locking clips will not affect the length as long as they are flush against the tie rod, bent or not.

And no with the spacer, im pretty sure you loose some thread engagement.

Originally Posted by Def

Put the car on some vinyl floor tiles with some dish soap and a little water and the tire will pivot freely. A quick roll back and forth is all you need if you still feel there is binding(doesn't happen with spherical rod ends/bearings though).


Toe plates that you use to measure the front toe with tape measures work well for a quick alignment. Just as accurate as the average alignment rack where the heads have been dropped/banged around etc and are never calibrated.

I wouldnt use dish soap, use bar and chain oil, Trust me, that stuff is from heaven.

Anyway, double check the steering wheel linkage after the rack. Make sure the slit in the joint coupler is lined up with the yellowish plastic guide seal. Make sure the joint didnt skip any teeth, because if its rusted it could. I removed the joint, coated the splines in bar and chain oil, and re installed/torqued to spec.

Yes, bar and chain oil. It seals out moisture, lubricates and kills rust - keeping metal strong. I usually mix some turpintine with ground up candle wax, and then mix that with some bar and chain oil and you have a winning concocksion

[projectRDM]

Originally Posted by Bigsyke

Whats your method of doing alignments? Ive been a member on Honda-tech since 02, and the road race/autocross boys still cant get it down right.

Your frame, preload on the bushings ect ect all comes into play when doing a diy alignment.

After every adjustment, you need toe plates that swivel on top of eachother to reset the bushing load after every change. You can roll the car back and forth a few times, but that usually throws the toe/steering off. SO without toe plates, you will never get a good alignment, and probably could just eyeball the tie rods better.

S14's rear wheel base is shorter than the front wheel base, that will throw a DIY alignment off too, so you need to compensate

You should also always do a proper alignment with yourself in the car, your body weight offsets enough to affect the final specs. The place I use here in Atlanta does full on race setups as well as basic shit, I sit in the car while they align, keep watch on the specs, and suggest my own settings as well for optimum feel. You should also make sure there's nothing else in the car to throw off readings, like a floorjack or shit you happen to be carrying. An extra 100lbs on one corner of the car can alter the setup later when it's removed. No point in doing a quality, high end alignment if you're not going to do it right.

[dongoesby]

appreciate all the constructive responds!

Bigsyke, thanks for the careful reading! Recalling how I did my installation, I agree that my method was very unware of the steering rack. And I have no doubt this would be an installation problem. In this case, I think my best bet is install my rucas today and then do an alignment.

For the locking plate, I know a lot of people remove them and neglect them, but the problem I have here is different. I left them on together with inner tie rod spacer. By the level of how I manually pryed each of them out, I'm considering it may also be a problem of causing uneven steering angle. Anybody?

[Bigsyke]

Here is my take on it-

Ditch the spacers. Unless your seriously drifting your car only, the more threads of the inner tie rod contacting the shaft the better. You need to torque the innards to 90lbs, I would personally rather have as much threading possible in the shaft. Save yourself the trouble, get new locking plates, lock them down and forget about it. They didnt do much for me.

[dongoesby]

Originally Posted by Bigsyke

Here is my take on it-

Ditch the spacers. Unless your seriously drifting your car only, the more threads of the inner tie rod contacting the shaft the better. You need to torque the innards to 90lbs, I would personally rather have as much threading possible in the shaft. Save yourself the trouble, get new locking plates, lock them down and forget about it. They didnt do much for me.

When adding the spacers, it adds the total length, so that means I have to shorten the tie rods to accommodate the differences. Therefore, I should have more thread engagement with the spacers, correct?

Again, for the locking plates, let me reword it. I didn't bend the locking plates (the 4 tabs) to "lock" the new inner tie rod. I left the 4 tabs open. Does this influences the overall length of the tie rods? PS: each of the locking plates might be bended and twisted at different level when removing.

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by Bigsyke

Ditch the spacers. Unless your seriously drifting your car only, the more threads of the inner tie rod contacting the shaft the better. You need to torque the innards to 90lbs, I would personally rather have as much threading possible in the shaft. Save yourself the trouble, get new locking plates, lock them down and forget about it. They didnt do much for me.

The Tein tie rods come with longer threads, so with the spacer installed it still has the same amount of thread engagement as stock.