Helical LSD Alternatives? - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

guitaraholic · 01-09-2009, 12:30 PM

For those of us who like "grip" driving I have been told nothing beats a helical/torsen LSD. As of right now it looks like we have three choices, both with there pro's and cons.

OBX

Pro's
- Cheap
- Uses Open Diff Shafts

Con's
- Lack of quality controll/craftsmenship
- Must be shimmed
- MADE IN CHINA (that's personal, but I hate
supporting a country that is going to one day
try to take over the world)

Quaife

Pro's
- Awesome Craftsmanship
- Lifetime Warrenty (even if raced)
- Good customer service/support

Con's
- Very Expensive ($1350 or so)

S15 HLSD

Pro's
- OEM Quality
- Lower cost than Quaife, but still expensive

Con's
- Need to buy output shafts (adds to cost)

OK, that being said I've been reading up on other vehicles that use Helical type LSD. Some can be had for as little as $450 new. They are OEM quality and some of them (like the one for the Firebird) can handle tons of torque. So here comes the question........

What type of custome work would be required to get something not of the same manufacture to fit. I am speculating, that it might require custom fiting of the differential case, and output shafts. This is just an idea I am throwing out there. heck, if its something as simple as drilling a few extra holes for the casing, and come custom output shaft (or machining of some) it might be a cost effective alternative that is OEM quality without spending a grand or more

GSXRJJordan · 01-09-2009, 12:38 PM

Differential housings are somewhat standard, so if you found out what kind of housing your desired differential is in, you can look around and see about fitting the new housing in your car.

At the very least, you need a custom driveshaft ($200 at least), custom axles (or output shafts), and subframe mods.

It's most likely cheapest to get the S15 diff.

JRas · 01-09-2009, 12:52 PM

just get a S15 HLSD.. I wouldn't say it's the best, all have their pros and cons.

quoted from Brady:
"The downside to a helical is that you have virtually no locking action off throttle, and/or under braking.. it acts as an open diff when you're off throttle. Driving Jeremy's SR20 car at Willow Springs (lots of high speed corner entries) was tough, and the car would have been a lot faster with a clutch diff. With a clutch diff you can blast into high speed corners like Turn 1, or Turn 10 at PIR with confidence, and accordingly, mop up just about anyone else in the said corner.

But, the flipside to that is lockup under acceleration. When you have what is essentially a "solid" axle, or a locked up clutch diff and you try to turn the car, one of the wheels is destined to break traction. That of course turns an otherwise great grip car, into a drift car.

My SR20 car is excellent on corner entry.. stable as a cruise ship. The only major flaw that car has now is the ability, or lack thereof, to put power down on corner exit.. and most of that is due to the tight lockup of the clutch diff. The way to fix that would be reduce preload or grip from the clutch discs, which is why the diff in my KA24 car works well.. the discs are pretty worn out, thus reducing the amount of lockup force, allowing the car to turn and put power down at the same time."

guitaraholic · 01-09-2009, 12:53 PM

So why do you have to change the subframe (sorry, not too familiar with how Differentials mount on the car?) I believe you could make up some of the cost of the driveshaft by selling the driveshaft you already have (5 speed DS are hard to find). If you have a rebuildable one (like me,,, one piece aluminum), all you need is to change out the flang. If it uses the same diameter output shafts then I believe all you would need to do is have them machined (length and splines).

JRas · 01-09-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaraholic

So why do you have to change the subframe (sorry, not too familiar with how Differentials mount on the car?) I believe you could make up some of the cost of the driveshaft by selling the driveshaft you already have (5 speed DS are hard to find). If you have a rebuildable one (like me,,, one piece aluminum), all you need is to change out the flang. If it uses the same diameter output shafts then I believe all you would need to do is have them machined (length and splines).

I don't know why you want to make this complicated.

get a S15 HLSD.... really not that expensive, I paid $425 for mine with output shafts.

/thread

don_bagz · 01-09-2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRas

I don't know why you want to make this complicated.

get a S15 HLSD.... really not that expensive, I paid $425 for mine with output shafts.

/thread

id be interested to know where you got yours...

sorry to jack thread

murda-c · 01-09-2009, 01:04 PM

What are balltecs?

i remember hearing they worked similare to helical.

don't know about quality or performance or anything, but i think that's an option for ya.

***S14DB*** · 01-09-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murda-c

What are balltecs?

i remember hearing they worked similare to helical.

don't know about quality or performance or anything, but i think that's an option for ya.

Æ’{Â[Æ’â€¹Æ’eÆ’bÆ’NLSDÂ@â€¢Âªâ€°Ã°

guitaraholic · 01-09-2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S14DB

Æ’{Â[Æ’â€¹Æ’eÆ’bÆ’NLSDÂ@â€¢Âªâ€°Ã°

Now I just have to get my sister to translate....lol (She can speak/read Japanese)

guitaraholic · 01-09-2009, 01:11 PM

I've heard two different things about the balltech (at least function wise). I've heard instances where they work like a helical, but use ball bearing instead of gears (not quite sure how that would work), other people have said it works like a clutch, where the ball bearings press against a friction housing and locks up both sides (like a clutch LSD) As for quality, I am not sure.

guitaraholic · 01-09-2009, 01:13 PM

I've seen them once in a while go for that much, but usually they wind up going for around $550-$650, then you have to add the cost of shipping from Japan (usually $75-$100)

timtiminy · 01-09-2009, 01:23 PM

I got a OBX one for $250 never used and installed in a pumpkin already.

hayaimoto · 01-09-2009, 01:56 PM

What is this car going to be used for again? STAY AWAY FROM CHINA MADE STUFF unless you want to buy more units down the line when that first one breaks.

DDDsquad_s13panda · 01-09-2009, 03:11 PM

how about a j30 VLSD, from a forum ive seen before all you need to do is add 1 shim and it be workin as if it was a 1.5 lsd and 2 shim if u want it to act as a two way.

i didnt read about any cons of it. but yeah. try lookin that up.

here the right up about it. iono if this will help you. im thinkin of tryin this myself
http://zilvia.net/f/s-chassis/200226...-j30-vlsd.html

guitaraholic · 01-09-2009, 03:16 PM

The prob with Viscous are, they don't really hold up to the abuse, and after 100k miles or so, they are pretty much an open dif. Also Helicals work on a completly different concept than 1.5 or 2-way clutch type. The Helical biases the torque to the wheel with the most grip, where the clutch locks the two side together.

guitaraholic · 01-12-2009, 11:48 AM

Been doing a little research, and it seems a few people have said that the our R200 differentials will work perfectly with there SC400/Supra. If that is the case, it should work the other way around. I believe they just had to swap out the haftshaft for the Nissan's. If that is the case, you can pick up a helical for about $100-150, and whatever the cost of the halfshafts. Would make for a low cost helical alternative and good OEM quality, and the Supra's are bulletproof (think of the 1000HP ones out there)

98koukile · 01-12-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaraholic

Been doing a little research, and it seems a few people have said that the our R200 differentials will work perfectly with there SC400/Supra. If that is the case, it should work the other way around. I believe they just had to swap out the haftshaft for the Nissan's. If that is the case, you can pick up a helical for about $100-150, and whatever the cost of the halfshafts. Would make for a low cost helical alternative and good OEM quality, and the Supra's are bulletproof (think of the 1000HP ones out there)

If their differentials are so good and so cheap then why are they switching to our expensive ones?

guitaraholic · 01-12-2009, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98koukile

If their differentials are so good and so cheap then why are they switching to our expensive ones?

There's more than one reason to change out a diff. From what I've read, the Nissan diffs are a bit shorter, giving an overall lower gear ratio and a little quicker acceleration. Its probably cheaper for someone to get a used diff and shafts than a "custom" diff ratio.

As far as them being crap, I haven't read anywhere about exploding diffs, and supra's come stock with 320hp and a lot of them are over 400 WHP with no probs at all. S2000's diffs, yeah, I would stay away from them. I've heard they won't handle much more than 300HP. Some of the S2000 owners have been switching there diffs out for the one in the Mazda miata/rx7/rx8. Which again, that helical can be had for cheap.

GSXRJJordan · 01-12-2009, 01:47 PM

That would be very interesting... I say give it a shot

guitaraholic · 04-26-2009, 09:17 PM

OK, I know this is an old thread that I started a while back, but got some new INFO. I found out that you the 2007 and up Subaru Legacy GT's use R200 Helical LSD's. Its a 29 spline count. Does anyone have any more info on that. Would be a way to get a good LSD with low mileage and maybe at a nice price

01-09-2009, 12:30 PM	#1
guitaraholic Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Spanish Fort, AL Posts: 430 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Helical LSD Alternatives? For those of us who like "grip" driving I have been told nothing beats a helical/torsen LSD. As of right now it looks like we have three choices, both with there pro's and cons. OBX Pro's - Cheap - Uses Open Diff Shafts Con's - Lack of quality controll/craftsmenship - Must be shimmed - MADE IN CHINA (that's personal, but I hate supporting a country that is going to one day try to take over the world) Quaife Pro's - Awesome Craftsmanship - Lifetime Warrenty (even if raced) - Good customer service/support Con's - Very Expensive ($1350 or so) S15 HLSD Pro's - OEM Quality - Lower cost than Quaife, but still expensive Con's - Need to buy output shafts (adds to cost) OK, that being said I've been reading up on other vehicles that use Helical type LSD. Some can be had for as little as $450 new. They are OEM quality and some of them (like the one for the Firebird) can handle tons of torque. So here comes the question........ What type of custome work would be required to get something not of the same manufacture to fit. I am speculating, that it might require custom fiting of the differential case, and output shafts. This is just an idea I am throwing out there. heck, if its something as simple as drilling a few extra holes for the casing, and come custom output shaft (or machining of some) it might be a cost effective alternative that is OEM quality without spending a grand or more

01-09-2009, 12:38 PM	#2
GSXRJJordan Post Whore! Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 9,135 Trader Rating: (19) Rides Gallery: GSXRJJordan Feedback Score: 19 reviews	Differential housings are somewhat standard, so if you found out what kind of housing your desired differential is in, you can look around and see about fitting the new housing in your car. At the very least, you need a custom driveshaft ($200 at least), custom axles (or output shafts), and subframe mods. It's most likely cheapest to get the S15 diff. __________________ Jordan Innovations has a new web site! www.JordanInnovations.com -- All your favorite FD Pro Drifters love it, trust me -- www.JordanInnovations.com

01-09-2009, 12:52 PM	#3
JRas Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Arizona Age: 36 Posts: 1,503 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	just get a S15 HLSD.. I wouldn't say it's the best, all have their pros and cons. quoted from Brady: "The downside to a helical is that you have virtually no locking action off throttle, and/or under braking.. it acts as an open diff when you're off throttle. Driving Jeremy's SR20 car at Willow Springs (lots of high speed corner entries) was tough, and the car would have been a lot faster with a clutch diff. With a clutch diff you can blast into high speed corners like Turn 1, or Turn 10 at PIR with confidence, and accordingly, mop up just about anyone else in the said corner. But, the flipside to that is lockup under acceleration. When you have what is essentially a "solid" axle, or a locked up clutch diff and you try to turn the car, one of the wheels is destined to break traction. That of course turns an otherwise great grip car, into a drift car. My SR20 car is excellent on corner entry.. stable as a cruise ship. The only major flaw that car has now is the ability, or lack thereof, to put power down on corner exit.. and most of that is due to the tight lockup of the clutch diff. The way to fix that would be reduce preload or grip from the clutch discs, which is why the diff in my KA24 car works well.. the discs are pretty worn out, thus reducing the amount of lockup force, allowing the car to turn and put power down at the same time." __________________

01-09-2009, 01:04 PM	#7
murda-c Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Montgomery County, MD Age: 36 Posts: 3,198 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	What are balltecs? i remember hearing they worked similare to helical. don't know about quality or performance or anything, but i think that's an option for ya. __________________

01-09-2009, 01:56 PM	#13
hayaimoto Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Irvine CA Posts: 492 Trader Rating: (20) Feedback Score: 20 reviews	What is this car going to be used for again? STAY AWAY FROM CHINA MADE STUFF unless you want to buy more units down the line when that first one breaks. __________________

01-09-2009, 12:53 PM	#4
guitaraholic Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Spanish Fort, AL Posts: 430 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	So why do you have to change the subframe (sorry, not too familiar with how Differentials mount on the car?) I believe you could make up some of the cost of the driveshaft by selling the driveshaft you already have (5 speed DS are hard to find). If you have a rebuildable one (like me,,, one piece aluminum), all you need is to change out the flang. If it uses the same diameter output shafts then I believe all you would need to do is have them machined (length and splines).

01-09-2009, 01:11 PM	#10
guitaraholic Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Spanish Fort, AL Posts: 430 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I've heard two different things about the balltech (at least function wise). I've heard instances where they work like a helical, but use ball bearing instead of gears (not quite sure how that would work), other people have said it works like a clutch, where the ball bearings press against a friction housing and locks up both sides (like a clutch LSD) As for quality, I am not sure.

01-09-2009, 01:13 PM	#11
guitaraholic Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Spanish Fort, AL Posts: 430 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I've seen them once in a while go for that much, but usually they wind up going for around $550-$650, then you have to add the cost of shipping from Japan (usually $75-$100)

01-09-2009, 01:23 PM	#12
timtiminy Zilvia Addict Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Socal Posts: 624 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I got a OBX one for $250 never used and installed in a pumpkin already.

01-09-2009, 03:11 PM	#14
DDDsquad_s13panda BANNED Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Fontana, IE. Age: 38 Posts: 550 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	how about a j30 VLSD, from a forum ive seen before all you need to do is add 1 shim and it be workin as if it was a 1.5 lsd and 2 shim if u want it to act as a two way. i didnt read about any cons of it. but yeah. try lookin that up. here the right up about it. iono if this will help you. im thinkin of tryin this myself http://zilvia.net/f/s-chassis/200226...-j30-vlsd.html Last edited by DDDsquad_s13panda; 01-09-2009 at 03:16 PM.. Reason: more

01-09-2009, 03:16 PM	#15
guitaraholic Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Spanish Fort, AL Posts: 430 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	The prob with Viscous are, they don't really hold up to the abuse, and after 100k miles or so, they are pretty much an open dif. Also Helicals work on a completly different concept than 1.5 or 2-way clutch type. The Helical biases the torque to the wheel with the most grip, where the clutch locks the two side together.

01-12-2009, 11:48 AM	#16
guitaraholic Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Spanish Fort, AL Posts: 430 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Been doing a little research, and it seems a few people have said that the our R200 differentials will work perfectly with there SC400/Supra. If that is the case, it should work the other way around. I believe they just had to swap out the haftshaft for the Nissan's. If that is the case, you can pick up a helical for about $100-150, and whatever the cost of the halfshafts. Would make for a low cost helical alternative and good OEM quality, and the Supra's are bulletproof (think of the 1000HP ones out there)

01-12-2009, 01:47 PM	#19
GSXRJJordan Post Whore! Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 9,135 Trader Rating: (19) Rides Gallery: GSXRJJordan Feedback Score: 19 reviews	That would be very interesting... I say give it a shot __________________ Jordan Innovations has a new web site! www.JordanInnovations.com -- All your favorite FD Pro Drifters love it, trust me -- www.JordanInnovations.com

04-26-2009, 09:17 PM	#20
guitaraholic Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Spanish Fort, AL Posts: 430 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	OK, I know this is an old thread that I started a while back, but got some new INFO. I found out that you the 2007 and up Subaru Legacy GT's use R200 Helical LSD's. Its a 29 spline count. Does anyone have any more info on that. Would be a way to get a good LSD with low mileage and maybe at a nice price