top mount setup/S13 SR valve cover catch can

[doridoridori]

Going top mount manifold soon, while waiting for parts to get in i already knew the stock oil collector/catch can wouldn't work anymore. With that being said I know people would go the S13.4 valve cover route and cut/weld the two together but i haven't had any luck finding a S14 SR cover for a decent price.

With that being said does anyone have an effective method/setup that works for the S13 SR cover with everything routed the correct way??

any info would help. I was looking at the Radium setup

http://www.radiumauto.com/Catch-Can-...S13-P2031.aspx

hadn't know anyone that runs it but it looks decent. Not 100% sure if that is the best route to replace the stock catch can setup.

[jr_ss]

The S13 VC has a lack of baffling, so adding a can that does have baffling or even a medium for the oily vapor to attach to and collect would be fine.

You can use the turbo suction or an exhaust evac Venturi and check valve. The correct way to do this is lines from VC to catch can, to suction source.

I do not like turbo inlet as oil vapor can reduce octane levels which could affect your tune. It also coats everything in the shit, including your intercooler.

[Kingtal0n]

Dont use a catch can, just measure the crankcase pressure and set it properly so the internal baffles work like OEM. Catch cans add volume and friction to the crankcase which further kills PCV action and that leads to oil leaking, poor oil drain, large oil droplets, increased blow-by, ring flutter, oil occluded ring pack, increased engine deposits and eventual wear and failure. Catch cans and excess lines are long-term health risks for a combustion engine.
Oil is good for the turbocharger that is what keeps the stock turbos alive on skylines supras and silvias for 250,000 miles, light oil film is protective. Metal needs oil to protect it from air. The oil wont pass the turbo if the crankcase pressure is set to OEM levels 0.5" to 1.5" Hg at wide open throttle. This is the mistake everybody makes, they don't measure and set it.

If you install a fuel pressure regulator, you check the fuel pressure and set the fuel pressure right? If you install new tires, rad cap, transmission pump, oil pump, boost controller, they all have pressure values which need to be verified and set. The same goes for crankcase pressure. You change the PCV system by installing new turbos, air filters, engine breathing mods, whatever- its like installing a new fuel reg or tires or boost controller. Measure, set.

[doridoridori]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

The S13 VC has a lack of baffling, so adding a can that does have baffling or even a medium for the oily vapor to attach to and collect would be fine.

You can use the turbo suction or an exhaust evac Venturi and check valve. The correct way to do this is lines from VC to catch can, to suction source.

I do not like turbo inlet as oil vapor can reduce octane levels which could affect your tune. It also coats everything in the shit, including your intercooler.

good info to know, appreciate that!

[doridoridori]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Dont use a catch can, just measure the crankcase pressure and set it properly so the internal baffles work like OEM. Catch cans add volume and friction to the crankcase which further kills PCV action and that leads to oil leaking, poor oil drain, large oil droplets, increased blow-by, ring flutter, oil occluded ring pack, increased engine deposits and eventual wear and failure. Catch cans and excess lines are long-term health risks for a combustion engine.
Oil is good for the turbocharger that is what keeps the stock turbos alive on skylines supras and silvias for 250,000 miles, light oil film is protective. Metal needs oil to protect it from air. The oil wont pass the turbo if the crankcase pressure is set to OEM levels 0.5" to 1.5" Hg at wide open throttle. This is the mistake everybody makes, they don't measure and set it.

If you install a fuel pressure regulator, you check the fuel pressure and set the fuel pressure right? If you install new tires, rad cap, transmission pump, oil pump, boost controller, they all have pressure values which need to be verified and set. The same goes for crankcase pressure. You change the PCV system by installing new turbos, air filters, engine breathing mods, whatever- its like installing a new fuel reg or tires or boost controller. Measure, set.

i wasn't aware of that but since going top mount and having to remove the oem catch can i obviously need something to take it's place. Not sure i 100% understand what you mean by setting it without the oem can.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by doridoridori

i wasn't aware of that but since going top mount and having to remove the oem catch can i obviously need something to take it's place. Not sure i 100% understand what you mean by setting it without the oem can.

Don?t worry, he goes on long rants all the time. While a lot of his info is good, some of it is just goofy.

Many cars run catch cabs with no side effects. He looks at things from an OEM perspective. Negative crank case pressure helps seal rings better, keeps less oil in the intake that can gum up valves and helps an engine survive longer. OEMs have to keep all this oil in the motor for emissions purposes, performance engines don?t.

[Kingtal0n]

The black box isnt a catch can. It is an air/oil baffle. It provides a small amount of resistance to flow to prioritize the valve cover pressure drop and possibly preventing oil from exiting the oil pan and entering the PCV lines. I think they are worried oil being whipped up into a mist might be pulled out of the oil pan and into the intake. Notice it doesn't go between the turbo and valve cover, so any oil flow during WOT is going to ignore the black box. It was eliminated in the S14, I assume they improved the baffle in the oil pan. If you look at the black box its routed to the oil pan. If you need to remove it simply remove it and attach using a hose to the oil pan. I've done this way in the past without any issues. As long as the crankcase pressure is set properly there won't be large oil mist droplets suspended in the crankcase fluids. Air is a fluid.

To set the pressure you measure the crankcase pressure then adjust it at the air filter.
Air filter provides pressure drop. If you removed the air filter from any engine in the world there is no more WOT Pressure drop for PCV and the engine will begin to blow oil from every seal and leaking dripping and fill the rings with oil causing carbon deposits etc...
If you need an example video how to set and measure crankcase pressure check my build thread its the first video at the top and explanation

[doridoridori]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

Don?t worry, he goes on long rants all the time. While a lot of his info is good, some of it is just goofy.

Many cars run catch cabs with no side effects. He looks at things from an OEM perspective. Negative crank case pressure helps seal rings better, keeps less oil in the intake that can gum up valves and helps an engine survive longer. OEMs have to keep all this oil in the motor for emissions purposes, performance engines don?t.

gotcha haha and nothing wrong with looking at it from an OEM perspective either, it was late and i was reading it confused but that makes sense.

[doridoridori]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

The black box isnt a catch can. It is an air/oil baffle. It provides a small amount of resistance to flow to prioritize the valve cover pressure drop and possibly preventing oil from exiting the oil pan and entering the PCV lines. I think they are worried oil being whipped up into a mist might be pulled out of the oil pan and into the intake. Notice it doesn't go between the turbo and valve cover, so any oil flow during WOT is going to ignore the black box. It was eliminated in the S14, I assume they improved the baffle in the oil pan. If you look at the black box its routed to the oil pan. If you need to remove it simply remove it and attach using a hose to the oil pan. I've done this way in the past without any issues. As long as the crankcase pressure is set properly there won't be large oil mist droplets suspended in the crankcase fluids. Air is a fluid.

To set the pressure you measure the crankcase pressure then adjust it at the air filter.
Air filter provides pressure drop. If you removed the air filter from any engine in the world there is no more WOT Pressure drop for PCV and the engine will begin to blow oil from every seal and leaking dripping and fill the rings with oil causing carbon deposits etc...
If you need an example video how to set and measure crankcase pressure check my build thread its the first video at the top and explanation

Thanks for the quick reply and feedback, i'll definitely go to your page and check that video out so I can have a better understanding of it

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

Many cars run catch cabs with no side effects.

If you add even 1" of hose it creates additional friction for fluid flow. It takes energy to move fluids. There are side effects to adding hose and volume to the crankcase. It doesn't matter whether OEM or race cars, all engines require PCV for ring function. Race cars use vacuum pumps to drive crankcase pressure into a vacuum so they can prioritize performance. Anybody without a source of vacuum for crankcase pressure system isn't just pushing oil- they are ruining their engine, circulating blow-by gas, creating deposits, trashing the block in the long term. It completely ruins the engine. "side effects" is the destruction of valuable block.

He looks at things from an OEM perspective. Negative crank case pressure helps seal rings better, keeps less oil in the intake that can gum up valves and helps an engine survive longer.

Proper Race cars use vacuum pumps. That is still negative pressure, that is not OEM applications, its racing. PCV is a racing issue for ring sealing and oil control. PCV is an engine longevity and reliability issue for OEM applications. It is both racing AND OEM. I am not looking from OEM I am looking from the RIGHT perspective of how to setup an engine. THere is only 1 correct way to setup an engine crankcase- It must have negative pressure all the time or it will suffer 'side effects' as in ruined engine and oil leaking etc...

OEMs have to keep all this oil in the motor for emissions purposes, performance engines don?t.

Racing vehicles use vacuum pumps. OEM uses the engine as a vacuum pump. It is a necessity for oil control. All performance engines require PCV, all OEM applications require PCV. Anybody can setup an engine without PCV and call it a performance engine and make rwhp numbers- that doesn't mean its done right. People can smoke a cigg and then run a couple miles and win races on foot- that doesn't make it right or proper or healthy. There is no correlation causation here, no chicken or egg. There is only right or wrong, idiots that don't know what damage they are doing to their engine or body, trashing the engine trashing their body.

[cured13]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

The black box isnt a catch can. It is an air/oil baffle. It provides a small amount of resistance to flow to prioritize the valve cover pressure drop and possibly preventing oil from exiting the oil pan and entering the PCV lines. I think they are worried oil being whipped up into a mist might be pulled out of the oil pan and into the intake. Notice it doesn't go between the turbo and valve cover, so any oil flow during WOT is going to ignore the black box. It was eliminated in the S14, I assume they improved the baffle in the oil pan. If you look at the black box its routed to the oil pan. If you need to remove it simply remove it and attach using a hose to the oil pan. I've done this way in the past without any issues. As long as the crankcase pressure is set properly there won't be large oil mist droplets suspended in the crankcase fluids. Air is a fluid.

To set the pressure you measure the crankcase pressure then adjust it at the air filter.
Air filter provides pressure drop. If you removed the air filter from any engine in the world there is no more WOT Pressure drop for PCV and the engine will begin to blow oil from every seal and leaking dripping and fill the rings with oil causing carbon deposits etc...
If you need an example video how to set and measure crankcase pressure check my build thread its the first video at the top and explanation

Great info like always King, can you post link to your videos please?

[Kingtal0n]

Always pressure test forced induction setups
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1sb5Y1J068&t=77s

Always measure crankcase pressure at wide open throttle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oRbfNPnHaI&t=1507s

If you actually do these correctly, an OEM PCV setup for 2jz-gte, sr20det, rb2xdety, LS applications, will function 100% perfect

I've successfully tuned ~250hp/liter these engines, sr20 500rwhp, 2jz 800rwhp, LS apps 1000rwhp, with OEM pcv hoses, lines, routes, for Daily Drivers Street/Strip high mileage setups 200k 300k miles some of them.
LS apps I use the 2jz-gte Supra PCV valve, In my pressure tests the Chevrolet leaks. Sometimes the aftermarket PCV valves for Nissan and Toyota leak as well. You must test the entire plumbing the way I have shown in the video, do not trust the pcv valve without testing it.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

If you add even 1" of hose it creates additional friction for fluid flow. It takes energy to move fluids. There are side effects to adding hose and volume to the crankcase. It doesn't matter whether OEM or race cars, all engines require PCV for ring function. Race cars use vacuum pumps to drive crankcase pressure into a vacuum so they can prioritize performance. Anybody without a source of vacuum for crankcase pressure system isn't just pushing oil- they are ruining their engine, circulating blow-by gas, creating deposits, trashing the block in the long term. It completely ruins the engine. "side effects" is the destruction of valuable block.



Proper Race cars use vacuum pumps. That is still negative pressure, that is not OEM applications, its racing. PCV is a racing issue for ring sealing and oil control. PCV is an engine longevity and reliability issue for OEM applications. It is both racing AND OEM. I am not looking from OEM I am looking from the RIGHT perspective of how to setup an engine. THere is only 1 correct way to setup an engine crankcase- It must have negative pressure all the time or it will suffer 'side effects' as in ruined engine and oil leaking etc...





Racing vehicles use vacuum pumps. OEM uses the engine as a vacuum pump. It is a necessity for oil control. All performance engines require PCV, all OEM applications require PCV. Anybody can setup an engine without PCV and call it a performance engine and make rwhp numbers- that doesn't mean its done right. People can smoke a cigg and then run a couple miles and win races on foot- that doesn't make it right or proper or healthy. There is no correlation causation here, no chicken or egg. There is only right or wrong, idiots that don't know what damage they are doing to their engine or body, trashing the engine trashing their body.

I think you missed something. I never said to run an open catch can system. I absolutely agree with a vacuum on the crank case, which turbo suction or exhaust velocity can produce?

https://motoiq.com/crankcase-ventila...d-n-a-edition/

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

I think you missed something. I never said to run an open catch can system. I absolutely agree with a vacuum on the crank case, which turbo suction or exhaust velocity can produce?

https://motoiq.com/crankcase-ventila...d-n-a-edition/

There is barely any vacuum to begin with. 0.5" Hg is .245psi of vacuum.

You are missing the part where lines create friction and volume dissipates pressure signal.


If you add pipe it adds friction. Intercoolers add friction, they absorb kinetic energy which costs power, costs energy. Lines that feed oil add friction and slow oil flow they longer they get. Intake tubes that get longer add friction and increase pressure drop. Its fluid mechanics.

Adding cans and lines will raise the pressure, they cause crankcase pressure. They work against the PCV system. Where does the vacuum signal originate from at wot? The air filter. That means for every line and can you add, now the air filter must become more restrictive to compensate. Its ANTI-Performance to add cans and lines. It takes ENERGY to move fluids through a hose, where does the energy come from? Its not free energy, no such thing.

And finally the can and lines does nothing useful. Healthy engines don't spew oil mass enough to cause harm to anything. Not to any engine thats even been produced by any manufacturer- not turbo, natural aspirated, not corvette engines used for track duty, nothing ever came with a catch can and nothing ever needed one. They fooled you, fooled everyone, into thinking you need one. You see everybody else has one, so you assume you need one also. Its just a cheap part they can sell you, everybody has $50 or $100 to buy a catch can. Everybody can afford it. Nobody is actually measuring their crankcase pressure before and after to realize - Hey! It hurts the engine! People lack education to understand the relationship between pressure and oil droplet size, to understand differential pressure of the ring pack, the pressure goes behind the ring to hold it against the cylinder wall from above while pressure from the crankcase is trying to force the ring up, unseating it and creating excessive blow-by, lost sealing, oil occlusion. The two forces on the end of the power stroke play tug of war as the piston decends and the higher the crankcase pressure is the sooner the ring will lose tension and switch sides allowing oil to enter the 2nd and 1st ring pack, causing burnt carbon glue to gradually stick the rings and prevent them from turning. And I am only brushing the subject.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

There is barely any vacuum to begin with. 0.5" Hg is .245psi of vacuum.

You are missing the part where lines create friction and volume dissipates pressure signal.


If you add pipe it adds friction. Intercoolers add friction, they absorb kinetic energy which costs power, costs energy. Lines that feed oil add friction and slow oil flow they longer they get. Intake tubes that get longer add friction and increase pressure drop. Its fluid mechanics.

Adding cans and lines will raise the pressure, they cause crankcase pressure. They work against the PCV system. Where does the vacuum signal originate from at wot? The air filter. That means for every line and can you add, now the air filter must become more restrictive to compensate. Its ANTI-Performance to add cans and lines. It takes ENERGY to move fluids through a hose, where does the energy come from? Its not free energy, no such thing.

And finally the can and lines does nothing useful. Healthy engines don't spew oil mass enough to cause harm to anything. Not to any engine thats even been produced by any manufacturer- not turbo, natural aspirated, not corvette engines used for track duty, nothing ever came with a catch can and nothing ever needed one. They fooled you, fooled everyone, into thinking you need one. You see everybody else has one, so you assume you need one also. Its just a cheap part they can sell you, everybody has $50 or $100 to buy a catch can. Everybody can afford it. Nobody is actually measuring their crankcase pressure before and after to realize - Hey! It hurts the engine! People lack education to understand the relationship between pressure and oil droplet size, to understand differential pressure of the ring pack, the pressure goes behind the ring to hold it against the cylinder wall from above while pressure from the crankcase is trying to force the ring up, unseating it and creating excessive blow-by, lost sealing, oil occlusion. The two forces on the end of the power stroke play tug of war as the piston decends and the higher the crankcase pressure is the sooner the ring will lose tension and switch sides allowing oil to enter the 2nd and 1st ring pack, causing burnt carbon glue to gradually stick the rings and prevent them from turning. And I am only brushing the subject.

No offense, you can spit theory all you want, I?ve used the exhaust Venturi system on my car and have created plenty of vacuum using such kit.

No factory car has. We aren’t talking factory cars here dude… You’re missing the point. We don’t care about a factory car setup.

Also, a car with a dry sump setup (corvettes) doesn’t need a catch can, the crankcase is already under constant vacuum. The LS is also notorious for pooling oil in the heads under hard driving. RB’s are notorious for spewing oil out of their motors. Hence splash plates and added baffling systems. Even then they still need the catch can.

Drag cars or any car modified for serious power have different ring gaps, which allow differing amounts of blow by than a factory car. Forged pistons, are a change from factory, which may allow more blow by. There are a thousand scenarios where one could use a catch can to prevent recirculating nasty by-product hydrocarbons through their motor. E85, another example, generates a lot of nasty stuff, I would rather have purged from my motor and sucked into a can.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Blah blah blah...

You're missing the key factor here my guy. Engines don't need negative crankcase pressure through the crankcase at WOT. It is not necessary for engine longevity, it's just better for power and ring seal. Once you go back to cruising or idle, your PCV valve starts working again and pulls the contaminants out of the crankcase and into the intake manifold. On a racing vehicle this is different, but as you explained, most use vacuum pumps or are dry sump anyway.

Secondly, the whole point of aftermarket catch cans is to use a system that relieves crankcase pressure without having to use a restrictive air filter. Why the fuck would you want to use a restrictive filter on your performance engine? The whole point of what we do is to allow the engine to breathe and make more power/be more efficient. If you have vacuum in your intake pipe at WOT, you're engine is not making the power it could. Some of this is necessary evil of course, because air filtration is important, but a large air filter with more surface area will alleviate most of this.

Lastly, it's pretty ironic that you go on and on about this, but don't even actually measure the pressure in real world figures in your video, it's just good enough for you that it moves down with the pipe attached and up with it disconnected. LOL.

EDIT: I read your post below, and it’s quite intriguing, but you never mention how to set the crankcase pressure other than air filter restriction. Is this your only tool? Or a pill in the air filter line? What is the method you use to set this, and do you actually measure the value, or just go off map voltage like in your video?

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

No offense, you can spit theory all you want, I?ve used the exhaust Venturi system on my car and have created plenty of vacuum using such kit.

What does that have to do with anything? If you can maintain a vacuum on the crankcase is all that matters. Use exhaust, use intake, use pump, use whatever. I don't care how you do it lol. ???

No factory car has. We aren?t talking factory cars here dude? You?re missing the point. We don?t care about a factory car setup.

Ah, This is a problem. You started to think your car is 'special' because you changed something like an air filter or engine. This is a dark path that leads away from reliability because it undermines the engineering that went into the drivetrain if you let it. *You* didn't design the engine, the factory did. It is a factory engine- so its a factory car. If we put a Chevrolet into a Nissan, that doesn't mean that *we* built the car. Chevrolet built the engine, its a factory car still, just a hodgepodge now of factory parts. If we rebuilt the transmission its still a factory transmission makeup. If we rebuilt the engine with a bunch of aftermarket parts- that will reduce reliability of the factory engine. Its still a factory engine, its just been made less reliable because we messed with the factory internals in a way that undermines the original engineering. Aftermarket internals don't make an engine more reliable, quite the opposite. Just like fucking with the factory PCV system doesn't guarantee a superior PCV system. It is how we qualify and determine whether our modifications to factory parts actually improved the reliability or not that matters, not whether or how we make those modifications. IF I attached a electrical vacuum pump to the crankcase that assured will function for 200k miles providing a full time vacuum as good or better than factory, on the crankcase then it is just as good as any factory PCV system. The trouble is finding and implementing such a device as it does not exist and even if it did may incure maintenance and complexity issues unforeseen without testing.

What I am getting at here is a perspective method for maintaining reliability. Stop thinking of your vehicle as a special or 'racing' vehicle no matter what power or function it has. Factory parts *are* racing parts, most are superior to anything aftermarket due to the decades of revisions and statistical interface that guided their ultimate function and production.

Do you know how I got 50,000 miles from a Chevrolet engine that already has 200,000 miles to begin with, at 800brake horsepower, while keeping all the factory internals and drivetrain in a daily driver configuration? My mentality to keep all factory parts and understand their limitations and producing the environment in which they operate under the same conditions or similar to what the factory had intended.

Also, a car with a dry sump setup (corvettes) doesn?t need a catch can, the crankcase is already under constant vacuum.

Why are you saying this? The catch can has nothing to do with vacuum on a dry sump. Dry sump provides kinetic energy to evacuate the crankcase so the engine's pistons don't need to. They can install all the catch cans they want, because there is a vacuum pump system to provide the energy to drive the fluids. Many dry sump users add catch cans, it hurts the vacuum signal a little bit but the difference is negligible when the can is installed to the intake suction side, there is a line directly from intake manifold to crankcase on those engines with NO PCV valve at all, its just a orifice. I feel like you are grasping as straws without really understanding the purpose of dry sump or PCV. Vacuum is a means of oil control, but it isn't the sole oil controlling feature on an engine.

The LS is also notorious for pooling oil in the heads under hard driving. RB?s are notorious for spewing oil out of their motors. Hence splash plates and added baffling systems. Even then they still need the catch can.

You say that but, I've setup hundreds of these engines and removed every catch can in sight and never had any issues. The real problem is people don't measure their crankcase pressure and set it properly, thats all I found over 25 years of doing this.
Here my 2.5L RB 600rwhp



NO catch can. No oil pooling. The RB has a head drainback modification which prevents oil from pooling in the head. This is the correct way to deal with oil accumulation in the engine baffles- NOT a catch can. Catch is a band-aid for idiots who don't know how to return the oil to the oil pan. Its how I can tell whether somebody actually knows what they are doing or not, instantly.

Drag cars or any car modified for serious power have different ring gaps, which allow differing amounts of blow by than a factory car. Forged pistons, are a change from factory, which may allow more blow by.

My RB has loose ring gaps and forged pistons but I properly set the crankcase pressure and there is no blow-by or issue with blowing oil out. If I had not properly measured then of course it would flood the intake with oil. The key, just like with fuel pressure, is to measure and set it properly. Tune it. Engine tuning is not just in the computer. Its how you setup and tune every component of the vehicle.

There are a thousand scenarios where one could use a catch can to prevent recirculating nasty by-product hydrocarbons through their motor.

Education time. You are incorrect and here is why. Blow-by gas and hydrocarbon partially reacted compounds found in combustion is a gas state. It is hot, high velocity gas.

Gasses cannot be captured in catch can or any kind of solid vessel. It would be like trying to catch the helium from a balloon in a can- impossible. The only way to catch blow-by products is to dissolve them into engine oil, which is exactly what the PCV system is intended to prevent. You don't want combustion products to dissolve into engine oil because then they circulate around the engine causing deposits and atherosclerosis of oil venules/capillaries, leading to eventual wear and failure.

Catch cans are the worst thing you can do to an engine crankcase system.

E85, another example, generates a lot of nasty stuff, I would rather have purged from my motor and sucked into a can.

Alcohol turns to gas and solvates into engine oil and water alike. Alcohol forms combustion products CO2 and H2O just like gasoline. It also attracts water. You don't want CO2 or H2O In the engine oil. When they leave the combustion chamber they are hot, high velocity gasses, the objective of the PCV system is to whip these hot fast moving gasses back into the combustion chamber which is where they came from a moment ago. If you add lines and a catch can now you will slow and cool the gasses causing water to fall out of a gas state and begin to collect in the lines, oil, can, etc... which means now you are catching around 5% of the water produced by combustion (a negligible amount) and allowing the water to stay inside the engine's crankcase system where it can mix with engine oil and increase the water content of the engine oil while the engine is off at rest and during cold operation.

Again, its the worst possible thing you can do the crankcase of an engine

[PoorMans180SX]

Honestly, I'm impressed with the RB with no catch can. I edited my response above, but can you explain how you set crankcase pressure? Is there a way to do it without a restrictive air filter?

[splitfire]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

....

Mann ProVent system. 100% OEM catch can setup on many commercial diesel engines.
Period.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by splitfire

Mann ProVent system. 100% OEM catch can setup on many commercial diesel engines.
Period.

Its not a catch can, There is a return pathway for oil to the oil pan so it does not stagnate. Also, diesel is quite different from gasoline and their PCV system is not setup the way it would on gasoline engines. Nice try though lol @ comparing diesel to gasoline lol, those engines run maximum compression i.e. WOT , all the time, even during idle and cruise. If you want to compare it with gasoline engine then you must make apples to apples comparison e.g. If we hold a gasoline engine at WOT all the time and it makes maximum blow-by and compression and absolutely fills the crankcase constantly with blow-by gas and high flow throughput of course it will carry significantly more oil vapors through the PCV system and must have a separator to return the oil to the oil pan considering like diesel engines we expect it to reach 1,000,000 miles of driving at WOT... Go try 1,000,000 at WOT with a gasoline engine and see if you needed a separator for the oil. rofl

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Honestly, I'm impressed with the RB with no catch can. I edited my response above, but can you explain how you set crankcase pressure? Is there a way to do it without a restrictive air filter?

Low pressure from venturi, vacuum pump, or air filter. The energy must overcome the blow-by gas, and the volume of the crankcase. Volume just like with intercoolers acts as a capacitor and buffers the differential of pressure as it is applied, in other words extra volume slows down and weakens the pressure signal. Keeping a crankcase volume small as possible is a key point when not using a vacuum pump or dry sump system. A venturi is more and more difficult as blow-by is increasing, you need more energy and the venturi is a pressure differential and orifice limited, you can't get "more" if you need it as the engine ages or when its cold and blow-by is much higher.

If you size a turbocharger correctly to account for the loss associated with air filter pressure drop it does not influence final power output of the engine. It doesn't matter if there is some 1.5" Hg pressure drop because that will raise pressure ratio and if you look at modern turbocharger compressor maps as the pressure ratio increases they also flow more total volumetric rate (the maps LEAN to the right as pressure ratio is increasing).

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

What does that have to do with anything? If you can maintain a vacuum on the crankcase is all that matters. Use exhaust, use intake, use pump, use whatever.

That?s my point? The whole reason you?re arguing over the same thing is unknown to me.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Ah, This is a problem. You started to think your car is 'special' because you changed something like an air filter or engine. This is a dark path that leads away from reliability because it undermines the engineering that went into the drivetrain if you let it. *You* didn't design the engine, the factory did. It is a factory engine- so its a factory car. If we put a Chevrolet into a Nissan, that doesn't mean that *we* built the car. Chevrolet built the engine, its a factory car still, just a hodgepodge now of factory parts. If we rebuilt the transmission its still a factory transmission makeup. If we rebuilt the engine with a bunch of aftermarket parts- that will reduce reliability of the factory engine. Its still a factory engine, its just been made less reliable because we messed with the factory internals in a way that undermines the original engineering. Aftermarket internals don't make an engine more reliable, quite the opposite. Just like fucking with the factory PCV system doesn't guarantee a superior PCV system. It is how we qualify and determine whether our modifications to factory parts actually improved the reliability or not that matters, not whether or how we make those modifications. IF I attached a electrical vacuum pump to the crankcase that assured will function for 200k miles providing a full time vacuum as good or better than factory, on the crankcase then it is just as good as any factory PCV system. The trouble is finding and implementing such a device as it does not exist and even if it did may incure maintenance and complexity issues unforeseen without testing.

What I am getting at here is a perspective method for maintaining reliability. Stop thinking of your vehicle as a special or 'racing' vehicle no matter what power or function it has. Factory parts *are* racing parts, most are superior to anything aftermarket due to the decades of revisions and statistical interface that guided their ultimate function and production.

What? Sucking all that nasty shit from your VC back into the motor is what gums up intake valves, rings and everything else. It is what creates carbon deposits. I didn?t know that was the goal...

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Do you know how I got 50,000 miles from a Chevrolet engine that already has 200,000 miles to begin with, at 800brake horsepower, while keeping all the factory internals and drivetrain in a daily driver configuration? My mentality to keep all factory parts and understand their limitations and producing the environment in which they operate under the same conditions or similar to what the factory had intended.

Nope and I surely do not care

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

NO catch can. No oil pooling. The RB has a head drainback modification which prevents oil from pooling in the head. This is the correct way to deal with oil accumulation in the engine baffles- NOT a catch can. Catch is a band-aid for idiots who don't know how to return the oil to the oil pan. Its how I can tell whether somebody actually knows what they are doing or not, instantly.

My RB has loose ring gaps and forged pistons but I properly set the crankcase pressure and there is no blow-by or issue with blowing oil out. If I had not properly measured then of course it would flood the intake with oil. The key, just like with fuel pressure, is to measure and set it properly. Tune it. Engine tuning is not just in the computer. It?s how you setup and tune every component of the vehicle.

Clearly, just like the SR20VET ?not? being able to product 370ftlbs of trq, you have no clue what you are referring to. The head drain surely helps, but it is not the fix. The fix is controlling the oil supply to the head, while also adding baffles and even then, with the drain, a catch can is necessary. Apparently, all the record setting shops in Australia are a bunch of idiots too.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Education time. You are incorrect and here is why. Blow-by gas and hydrocarbon partially reacted compounds found in combustion is a gas state. It is hot, high velocity gas.

Gasses cannot be captured in catch can or any kind of solid vessel. It would be like trying to catch the helium from a balloon in a can- impossible. The only way to catch blow-by products is to dissolve them into engine oil, which is exactly what the PCV system is intended to prevent. You don't want combustion products to dissolve into engine oil because then they circulate around the engine causing deposits and atherosclerosis of oil venules/capillaries, leading to eventual wear and failure.

No shit, I don?t want to capture them and you assume I?m trying to capture these gases. I want them removed from my motor and not sucked back into the intake where they can affect knock resistance.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

What? Sucking all that nasty shit from your VC back into the motor is what gums up intake valves, rings and everything else. It is what creates carbon deposits. I didn?t know that was the goal...


No shit, I don?t want to capture them and you assume I?m trying to capture these gases. I want them removed from my motor and not sucked back into the intake where they can affect knock resistance.

You can't catch gas(air) in a can. I'd like to see you try.

Your statement doesn't even make sense "You assume I'm trying to capture these gasses" ... "I want them removed"

How are you removing them? lmao kids - go back to school man its time

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

You can't catch gas(air) in a can. I'd like to see you try.

Your statement doesn't even make sense "You assume I'm trying to capture these gasses" ... "I want them removed"

How are you removing them? lmao kids - go back to school man its time

Reading comprehension kids. Go back and reread what system I?m using, then come back and have a chat with the grown ups.

[Mikester]

FWIW, this is how I run mine with a regular S13 VC. Gleaned from a sticky thread posted here a few yrs back (https://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?...ight=catch+can). Seems to do the trick, the 90-deg coming out of the VC minimizes oil vapor flow to the can, the line to the inlet pipe ensures negative pressure.

Mike

[Kingtal0n]

I think your additional lines and can is adding too much friction and causing high crankcase pressure, which is ruining the engine, creating additional blow-by and allowing blow-by to mix with engine oil and circulate around the engine causing deposits and leading to eventual wear and failure. Its probably worse than a breather.

You never measured the crankcase pressure or you would see the problem

As we add lines or hose to that exit/entrance port on the valve cover, pressure rises inside the crankcase, all else equal.
For example if you put a breather on the hose at 1 foot, then 10feet, then 100feet, then 10,000 feet, the highest pressure in the crankcase will be when the breather is at the end of a 10,000 feet of hose.

The shortest route to the air filter (breather) is the lowest crankcase pressure. Remove all the extra lines and useless volume of can and it might save the motor. Otherwise it will eventually fail and the clogging of deposits cannot be washed out the engine will become un-reusable, non rebuild-able. Sure you will try to rebuild it but it will fail shortly again because the hard carbon forms diamond-like deposits in orifices which cannot be cleaned.

I recommend do yourself a favor for peace of mind, get a $5.00 used 1-bar map sensor from any vehicle, install it to the valve cover (crankcase exit port on valve cover close to the crankcase) and attach a 5v signal source to it, using a $5 multi meter from harbor freight is fine, then read the map voltage at wide open throttle. Get a video. Voltage goes up, your engine is in trouble.

Pressure over atmospheric is a scalar in the crankcase, like inside a tire, it has no vector, the molecules collide with all surfaces in all directions, that is what keeps a tire inflated at atmospheric pressure. There is a partial pressure of blow-by gas which will dissolve into engine oil and scalar pressure is forcing oil into engine seals leading to oil leaking. Furthermore at the end of power stroke scalar crankcase pressure forces early ring switching, causing extra blow-by and allowing oil to enter the ring pack and glue the ringpack, forming deposits on piston rings and interfering with ring to cylinder wall sealing.

Its a slippery slope once you modified the crankcase without doing the measurements necessary. Like installing a fuel pressure gauge and never checking your fuel pressure. OR a boost controller. Crazy but everybody does it so it must be fine, right? Like smoking, everybody is smoking, must be fine?