Original vs. Knock-off

[MadScientist]

If you guys want to attack me for starting this post and keeping allive so many times... go ahead.
Max - I am doing something about it... I own a US Company that deals in Original Japanese products... but that wasn't obvious enough for you!

KOREA (North/ South- who really gives a F*#@) has been threating to Nuke the US for the last 2 years. Vietnam Kicked our asses, and China helped. Go back to school, and turn on CNN. Now back to the real topic...

I personally dont think buying a product that is produced under low quality environments and/ or sweat shops is worthy of being used on my car, or my customers. However some large companies like HKS my have some of their products outsourced to other countries, but the large majority of the part is produced by HKS. Just like your car (look on the door) should say something like 90% made in Japan/ 10% made in USA. My car is Japanese therefore the parts going on my car are as well... that has been my logic (and others). Correct, If you are buying e-bay special parts or the cheepest parts available... then No, your not my target customer and I can agree with Apex-i on that... and Yes a Brand Name or Label does bring a sence of security to the quality of the product. The Ebay special RAS and Cooling panel was never tested for quality, more than likely just a chopped copy of an original and you have no clue where it came from (China or some guys backyard). Does it get the job done? Maybe, but all we really know is that it Looks the part.

Toyota and Nissan have jumped ship and have several large plants in the US which employ several tens of thousands per plant. Some cars are 100% made for the US market only.

I have thought about producing my own parts, and I am highly skilled to do so. However, at this time, I do have bigger obligations. I have been working with Mike @ Kognition Design on producing parts.

How in the hell can can the US market compete when China pays some $0.90/hour to some povern family. even if it takes 24 hours to produce 1 part thats onlt $21.60 in labor... material is cheeper also. Americans know that if they have skills they expect to get paid for them... welders get about $20/ hour (just for reference)... thats about 23 hours of production work in China. The only way the US market can compete is to manufacture by robotics, that way the turn over is greater and generally better quality. This is a very very deep topic.

Correct, customers dont like to wait, but when your dealing with a Company that is not willing to Jump ship to America, then you have no choice. For whatever reason the company has (finnacial/ expansion/ language/ production/etc...) it doesn't matter. You as a customer can bitch and complain all you want on why Yashio Factory/ URAS/ JUN/ etc.. are not here in the US... However large you feel the demand may be for those companies may be.... stop... go back and read this entire thread and tell me how logical it would be to bring over a 40ft container!!!! We all want what we can't have, and once its made available we loose interest... plain and simple.

Peace
Drew

[bing]

its true that the labour is the number one factor, but in my experience it is possible to compete.

i really would like to see the cost structures for a company like Tanabe, i mean come on. they charge 3 to 4 times more than the ebay specials.

yes the Tanabe is a better piece, but with the quantities they are running i am 100% certain that they could be offering the products 30% cheaper or better. their RUCA's and other multi-link arms are like $70 more expensive than JIC / Battle version.. why?

if you expect people to beleive that it is because of material input costs you are going to have a fun time defending that.

i suspect it is to fund their racing teams and promotional budget. but if you ask me, they should be taking that $$$ out of the price of their products at a price that competes better with JIC / battle version instead of tacking it on top of the market price.

as an aside to that, Alex (battle version) is all made in the US is it not? right there is an example of someone producing in NA, making a high quality product with all the service we expect for a price that is competitive. And i can tell you he isnt going hungry of that either.....lol

whether people agree or not, the big companies are losing ALOT of sales. its a cop-out to say that these people werent in your target market, anyone with a 240sx and a job is in your market.

but again drew, your definately not to blame nor should anyone even be arguing with you. it is up to the companies to make the changes and to bring their products to market at a more competitive level. otherwise people will continue to go to SSAC.

[Omarius Maximus]

The main reason I have a hard time buying "brand name JDM" stuff is because I have to deal with a lot of middle men. I mean think about it, in japan you can get a set of 17 inch SSR Professor SP1s for around 1200 bucks or less new. Over here, the middle men will hike that price way up. I always feel like I'm being ripped off even if I buy a super high quality part. There is a great disparity in the pricing in option magazines and the prices that I have to pay and I just got tired of it. You can buy forged 2 piece 17 inch wheels from Centerline with any offset you want for 200 bucks each. Why can't I get that price for a shody set of gram lights 57 pros? the center piece is cast and theres no point in it being 2 piece cause you'll never get the offset you want. Also MadScientist, I would gladly buy "real" JDM parts if you told me how much you get the stuff at cost or your profit margin.

[max_misawa]

i was not attacking you at all hahaha
i was just making counter points
me go back to school?
serious you have to do better than that,
the US tore up vietnam IIRC 3 million vietnamese troops dead to that of the us 58,XXX
thats a what 60:1 kill ratio
the fact is the USA withdrew from vietnam due to many reasons
its not because we "lost"
at least read something that is not a RAG and if you get info from CNN you really have no clue

so you wont buy sweat shop condition parts for you car?
thats a good point

but what about other products clothing, food, electronics etc etc etc
economics is very complex

to my understanding the only solution would be just to raise import duties SKYHIGH
that would level the playing field so that 5 dollar part from china would cost the same as the counter part from detroit
but i dont see the us government doing that anytime soon

so that was my point, we as americans need to step up to the plate and do something that our governmet currently will not do
make the USA more competetive on the world market
there comes a point when human intrest in more important than the bottom line
but nowadays no one seems to care about that

i just dont think its right to knock americans working in america even if they are just copying parts
at least they are putting money into our own system instead of sending US dollars overseas
and about buying the bodykits from vietnam
it was a joke
would i buy something like that, highly doubtful
but at the same time it breaks down to the fact that
if the consumer gets a better product at a better price
then capitolism has won
and that is what america is all about

Max

[Omarius Maximus]

Rays Engineering>Mackin Industries>neighborhood speedshop>me
I would buy JDM if it was:
Rays Engineering>ME
otherwise, don't hold your breath.

[Omarius Maximus]

Hey Max Misawa, your almost as smart as me. I agree with you 100 percent, the world is a very complex place and oversimplification is a logical fallacy that many people resort to.

[MikeFD3S]

In defense of Original JDM goods, paying the premium typically nets higher quality goods. You pay for the quality, you support the company, and you support the development of new parts.

It pisses me off to see all of these people trying to find out what the company costs are. It's none of their businesses. It's insulting to shops like Rare Trick who do all of the legwork to bring certain parts in, and then cheap ass forum guys try to lowball them and cut into their razor thin profits.

Anyone who knows anything about a speed shop knows that their profit margin on parts sales is razor thin these. For hard to get parts, why insult them like that? If it were "SOOOOO" simple to get these parts in, wouldn't everyone be running an import/export business? Unfortunately it's not easy.

For the manufacturers, like Tanabe- If companies like this are not making any money, how can they continue to innovate great products? They have mouths to feed, engineers, developers, and they also maintain their quality standards to retain their ISO9001 certs on their manufacturing (very $$$). This is a certification that virtually all Taiwanese, and even low budget Japanese manufacturers DO NOT have. Tanabe is serious about their quality, and that is very respectable in my books-- when compared to these high volume low cost, questionable quality manufacturers.

Here's a great example. General Motors. One of the largest auto manufacturers in the world. Sure they have high legacy costs, but one of the major faults in GM was that they slashed their prices on all of their vehicles, and simply developed cars that yes, got the job done, but were very lacking in innovation. The bottom line on GM vehicles was that they had the volume in sales around the world, but the high cost of their incentives just to get people to buy these cars seriously cut into their ability to create truly great cars.

Let's go back to Tanabe again. You don't want them to make money, because you insist on getting your shit for your 240sx on the cheap. Their awesome DD's and especially their new speed sensing suspension would have never been developed if they never made any money. Any truly innovative product would have never been released if the company that made it was unprofitable.

These cheap products that you guys are eating up are made by companies created SOLELY to make money, and they do not spend any money to develop anything truly unique, and simply copy the products that true innovators create. This is driving the quality companies out of business.

Support original goods, support quality companies.

All businesses are out their to make money, but the quality ones are out their innovating new products. Support them.

[MadScientist]

MikeFD3S -

Once a Product is listed for a lower cost, the consumer expects to pay that from that point on... then another dealer marks it lower, and so on...!
Look at most of the Internet shops pricing vs. the Manufacture (grab a calculator its not hard to figure out %). It usually gets down to where the Dealer is making so little he has no choice but to push volume on a specific Brand and limiting their own product line.

Look at the majority of Shops that only sell products that are available in the US. How about the # of shops that focus strictly on importing. I can bet the ratio is about 1000/1. You can drive down your street and come arcoss what I call a Nopi Shop.

Lowballing Dealers piss me off Plain and Simple... But, My cost on Import products are lower than others and I know it pisses them off. Customers also dont understand that a 20ft/ 40ft Container cost about $4-5k... Not including Customs (2.5%), Brokerage ($200/ invoice), Bond ($70), Tax, Duty, etc... $10,000 in Products will cost nearly $18,000 once in the US.

If you as a consumer were to Buy a Product Directly from the Manufaturer you would pay the Full MSRP cost... not the Dealers marked down cost.

The Clothing your wearing has a Higher Mark-up than the Intake you have on your car... the Intake dealer maybe made 5%, The Shirt Dealer made at least 80%. Look around for the same shirt on the web... it will be marked the same exact price everywhere... once its out of season the price drops huge 50% off sales everywhere. How can the Clothing Market have a More substantial Dealer Network??? Because they are limited to what and when they can Advertise and Sell, by the Manufactures. Videos and Music New Releases are only released on Tuesdays... Music Shops can get Fined Huge, Pulled Products Lines, and even Shut Down for releasing early.

Not a Single Person in here goes to the checkout counter and hustles the cashier to mark down the Shirt or DVD... they would laugh, and the manager would probably call security.

As Import and Preformance Shops were are all cutting each others throats to make a dollar... the only ones that can make it stop is the Manufactures.

Peace
Drew

[240_sx_guy]

Rolex or fake Rolex? One costs more to make, the other is very cheap to make. Both are here to stay. Why all the arguing? It all boils down to personal preference and budget.

[revat619]

Originally Posted by MadScientist

MikeFD3S -

Once a Product is listed for a lower cost, the consumer expects to pay that from that point on... then another dealer marks it lower, and so on...!
Look at most of the Internet shops pricing vs. the Manufacture (grab a calculator its not hard to figure out %). It usually gets down to where the Dealer is making so little he has no choice but to push volume on a specific Brand and limiting their own product line.

Look at the majority of Shops that only sell products that are available in the US. How about the # of shops that focus strictly on importing. I can bet the ratio is about 1000/1. You can drive down your street and come arcoss what I call a Nopi Shop.

Lowballing Dealers piss me off Plain and Simple... But, My cost on Import products are lower than others and I know it pisses them off. Customers also dont understand that a 20ft/ 40ft Container cost about $4-5k... Not including Customs (2.5%), Brokerage ($200/ invoice), Bond ($70), Tax, Duty, etc... $10,000 in Products will cost nearly $18,000 once in the US.

If you as a consumer were to Buy a Product Directly from the Manufaturer you would pay the Full MSRP cost... not the Dealers marked down cost.

The Clothing your wearing has a Higher Mark-up than the Intake you have on your car... the Intake dealer maybe made 5%, The Shirt Dealer made at least 80%. Look around for the same shirt on the web... it will be marked the same exact price everywhere... once its out of season the price drops huge 50% off sales everywhere. How can the Clothing Market have a More substantial Dealer Network??? Because they are limited to what and when they can Advertise and Sell, by the Manufactures. Videos and Music New Releases are only released on Tuesdays... Music Shops can get Fined Huge, Pulled Products Lines, and even Shut Down for releasing early.

Not a Single Person in here goes to the checkout counter and hustles the cashier to mark down the Shirt or DVD... they would laugh, and the manager would probably call security.

As Import and Preformance Shops were are all cutting each others throats to make a dollar... the only ones that can make it stop is the Manufactures.

Peace
Drew

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!

That is EXACTLY what im talking about. I cant stand lowballers and customers just dont understand all thats involved.

Well said Drew, very well said. I'm with you 100%.

[drift freaq]

Ok I am going to throw in here, I did quite awhile back as well.
First in the last few posts Drew has made some good coherent reasonable arguments as has Max. I want to clarify some things here though. Yes it might give away my age which most people guess to be at least 10 years different when they see me in person. Yes I live in Hollywood and its a guarded secret hahahhaha.
Anyways, First off, someone said earlier Taiwan Factories are not iso9001 or 2. That is flat wrong! In fact most of Taiwans steel factories are ISO9001. I know this because I mountain bike and the majority of Mountain Bike frames are designed in the U.S. assembled in Taiwan per U.S. specs!! These are robotic ISO9001-2 factories. Taiwan steel while once cheap shit back in the late 70's early 80's has changed quite a bit.
Two: Japan used to signify cheap shit (just like Taiwan does) back in the 1950's through till the early 70's. Guess what? They automated their factories based on what they saw in my fathers automated factories (Fairchild Semiconductor) He was VP in charge of Technology)
It allowed them to get up a leg up on a lot of antiquated american companies assembly lines. Hence Japanese quality rose. Then Japans economy took off . Costs of living soared. All of sudden now you have a situation were Japan's manufacturing costs are expensive much like what happened to American companies especially our Automobile companies in the 70's-80's and consumer electronics companies.
Now, what happened to U.S. then is happening to Japan. Taiwan , Korea and China are pulling simialar tactics that the Japanese used on the U.S. on Japan. i.e. cheaper labor , newer automated factories , lower costs of living. Hence Japanese automobile companies manufacturing here, Canada , Mexico to keep costs down. If Japanese performances parts companies expect to stay alive in this market they will have to follow suit as costs in Japan are not going to drop magically. Now are knocks better? Most likely no. Should you buy a part for your car from Japan because the car was made in Japan. If that part is of superior quality then you get what you pay for!!
If the knock off part is worth purchasing due to lack of availibility of the original and cost of original is prohibitive ? That is your call. It is subjective. Are there people here in the states making their own products that are very good that some would call knock offs? Yes. Are they worth purchasing ? Yes.
Before you guys start blowing the trumpet of Originality for Japan realize that Japans electronics and car industry exist today because of them taking american idea's and designs and innovating them. In a sense knocking off U.S. products.
If this arguement was going on in the 70's you all would be crying about how the Japanese were knockinng American products and you should buy American . Hahahhahahaha funny how Ironic that is and this whole thread has become. This post should put a end to this thread it pretty much sums the whole situation up in a nutshell .
Thank you and have a nice night!!
Steps down from the podum and leaves to get a haircut.