Requests are off the hook!

[TheSparo]

MAKE one for the SR!!!!!!!!! please? lol
bill check u'r mail and clean u'r pm box

[Maeda]

I second the notion for a KA-T shock! I might just buy one myself and try to ghetto fab one for top mount kids...

[240racer]

Bill you are just making a fool of yourself to all the other engineers that are on this forum. Do you know what a shock does? First of all they do not absorb shock, they transmit it very well. It's just a dumb name that has become really common, but also leads to a lot of misconceptions of how they work. Now, when you talk about this 2600lb load rating, I am sure that it means the maximum load that can be placed on the shock or it may break. It has nothing to do with it's damping (yes this is the correct spelling)rate. Also, every shock made to acompany a spring (which is pretty much every one) has much stiffer rebound damping then compression damping. One person that posted was correct in saying that a dampers force changes with velocity, this is how they calm (or damp) vibrations. Now I just want to know how did you "hand pick" the shock for this application and what calculations did you do? Did you determine the natural frequency of the engine at idle and then use the spring rate of the rubber mounts to determine an appropriate critical damping coeffecient. Then how in the world did you find a shock with these specs without the proper tools? you admited you didn't have an accelerameter. However what you need is simply a shaft velocity meter (also called a shock position sensor attached to software that can determine velocity) and a load cell on the end of the shock.

This stupid idea blows me away and further convinces me that you have no idea what you are talking about and I can't trust any of your ideas in the future.

[apexL8]

If you don't have something to add besides.. "it's poop" shutup -sykikchimp

[Bill Roberts]

Wrong, it does absorb shock. How come my engine does not move 1 inch when I speedshift anymore?

What do you call that, I call it absorbing the shock.

Start-ups are much smoother.

So you tried the thing? No, you have not.

Proof is to put one on. Period.

That is what is happening.

Maybe you are po'ed because you don't want to try one or did not think of it?

???

It works, plain and simple.

You will hear from others when they put theirs on.

I knew someone would be skeptic. Did you put one on?

It will be hilarious when others get theirs and your post will still stink and others will report correctly. Your engine is connected to your rear suspention. It helps rear wheel control too. More stabilization. You will hear others comments..and you have no idea what that gas shock was designed to go on at all or its dynamic capabilities.

I am sorry, it is you guessing now. I have one on my car. I will not take it off. I could not stand to think of driving without it now. PS, my motor mounts are fresh. 3 months old.

Remember, zilvia gets a donation as well...you want to try to shoot that down as well?

[MarvynDT]

I am concerned about the long term effects that this may have on the car. Yes, it may prove wonders now, but what about a few years down the road? Will it eventually weaken my shock tower welds and rip it out?

Several years ago, people were estatic about using an Integra Type R rear sway bar on a 1992-1995 Civic. What many didn't know immediately is that they needed to use a specific mounting plate to the subframe as quite a few were tearing the subframe apart.

I think that your project is great. And I think that your hard work and effort should continue into recording every type of measurement available to ensure the longevity of your product design.

[mbmbmb23]

I think it's great that people are trying new things...fabricating new parts for the 240sx (I'm currently developing an LED lit rear center panel for the s13 Hatchback). Don't worry about not knowing the correct terminology....you can still create something nice without it...but if you happen to misspeak know that someone on this board will point it out....like it or not. I've gotten used to it. As for the skeptics on here....well.....I'm afraid that people (including myself) have grown very leary of "internet tuners" due to being ripped off with group buys, people flaking and not sending you what you paid for, garbage mods for sale on ebay, and overall simple mis-information and myths regarding the 240sx.

I do believe a product like this can work, similar products are sold for the SR (torque dampeners for the engine). As far as the shock towers getting messed up like those civics......I'm no engineer or anything, but if you are worried about messing up the unibody, use the engine dampener with a strut tower bar which will transfer the added stress to both shock towers, AND dont mount the shock to the strut tower using ONE bolt hole, use a plate that attaches to all 3.


-m

[Bill Roberts]

Here you go MarvynDT

I am concerned about the long term effects that this may have on the car. Yes, it may prove wonders now, but what about a few years down the road? Will it eventually weaken my shock tower welds and rip it out?

After careful consideration of your question posted +13 hrs ago. I decided to perform a test...and use common sense. I also presented the only knowns I have to the math lab and asked for 400% overdesign tolerance.

The mounting thickness of the shock tower where I mounted it is 3/32. I used 3/8 inch cap screws (grade 3) and nuts. I used 2 of them and drilled through. I torqued them at 15 ft pounds and incorporated lock washers. The shock tower is quite robust there. I used 3/32 plate tool steel for the mount. Took 60+ seconds (with a questionable bit and milwakee 1HP drill) to get through there. I lubed it with zepreserve to aid cooling of the bit.

The maximum torque or push /pull on the mount is absorbed by the shock itself. If it were a solid link, the dynamics would exsert about 2.43X the maximum crank torque of the crankshaft at the distance from the crank (to head mount) with SOLID motor mounts. Since this is to be used with factory motor mounts that 90% of zilvia members are actually using, they absorb shock at 50% load max (220LBS based on testing old ones in a hydrolic press not being shocked with speedshifts) so you must divide this absorbtion and all other absorbtion of the tranny mounts and the rear suspention by an unknow figure. We know it will not equal a direct link of 100% (which even a direct link cannot achieve 100% due to dynamic and static plus frictional loses)

Worst case situation with no mounts. (Shock doing all the work)

Lets consider 100% (probably more like 60 at worst)


Now ****with mounts**** and an X8 formula..


More hyper extrapolation not in favor of this shock..

This means that even if you had 1000 HP, the shock tower would never exceed 120LBS of direct torque and accumulated pressure from a speedshift (lets excersize 8X for kicks and grins) would be with a direct link, no motor mounts, and no tranny mounts, and no rear suspention, would be 920 LB's of pressure...and direct torque is never a constant. Adding in the varables it would be far less than 50% of this and if you take into consideration of what would happen during a speedshift, the total duration of maximum time under maximum stress would be less than 0.2 seconds.

Their are many varables I am not even figuring in here and going to the worst case senerio on each.


Think of U joint flexing and losses in the transmission mounts and suspetion)

This said, the shear rating (to shear it off directly) of the screw I am using on my head is 330LB/ enertia moment at 1/16th (using 3/32). I used this undersized screw to see how the stress would affect the "system".

Since I have taken a basic 220Ft Lb engine and done everything humanly possable to break something..I find that since the vehicle is resting (1/4 to much more during 0.9G cornering/braking more varables) on said shock tower and I am using two bolts for it, not to mention the one to the head is 1/23RD as strong (almost 24 times weaker in shering strength)...and no problem there...the last thing you would have problems with would be the shock tower mount.

I would be much more concerned with the mount to the engine. You will need thermodynamic insulation (no exhaust manifold bolts) and you will need to have the unit secure.

My Mount Man is working out all the mounts and I am certain that each will provide the level of stability needed to have no problems of any type. Everything that has gone into this is engineered to 400% of 300HP and if someone has that much power, the car certainly is not streetable and needs to be solid mounted for track use only.

Email for more explaination if this is not clear.


Bottom line, the shock towers are one of the strongest points of the entire car. Seat belt bolts and mounts are also quite robust....but not needed for this application.


Also remember, this system is sold as is. After 30 days, you can return it if not totally delighted. I also bear no responsability for improper mounting or useage. Use common sense. If you dont have that...then get it...I am sure you do actually.


The dynamics of an automobile is 40% art and 60% science. Then you consider the indivgual driver.


It is safe. But please don't get one if you have any doubts. You either see that it works and then know it once you try it on the track or street, or you wholesale bash it as being a dumb move.

Hey, you don't like it, dont use it and send it back within 30 days...what is the loss?

I ask everyone that does not believe 100% in what I am telling you how it feels on my car to NOT buy it at all.

I do not do dealings with those who really cannot see an advancement.

IF you don't think it will work, I won't let you have it..and they all have stamped numbers on them coming in...so try to pull a fast one.

IF it is not numbered from my lot, I am NOT responsable.

PS, I reserve the right to REFUSE SALE to those..I feel want to try to start some crap. I know who would like to try it and who don't. Each is screened and if you have not received an email from me, sign up...if you have signed up here and no email, you are not signed up.

That simple.

Know what you are getting into.


This is viable, works and will be loved. Simple. Try it. Guaranteed.

[Bill Roberts]

First lot sold out!


Those that want to do this, email me privately through the link. I will send you an email to fill out and send it back.

Those on the first order have received my email. You know what to do.

[240Stilo]

Originally posted by 240racer
This stupid idea blows me away and further convinces me that you have no idea what you are talking about and I can't trust any of your ideas in the future.

There's nothing wrong with him wanting to try something new. Sure it might be pretty safe to say he doesn't have the exact know how and tools needed to find the most effiecient shock, but the essence of his idea is not that bad. Much respect for Bill and his guts to test something new on his car, but I sure won't be putting this on my 240.

[sykikchimp]

...couple concerns

1. it's much too large. There are smaller gas powered shocks that could offer the same effect.

2. I would not trust a mount in the SIDE of a strut tower. A mount that used ALL three of the top strut bolts would not only be easier to install, but stronger, and less ikely to cause a problem later down the road. Strut towers are meant to handle vertical loads in reference to the suspension below, and compression/tension loads B/W the strut towers focused at the TOP of the strut tower. Bolting something to the side of the strut tower that sees a sompression tension load at a very specific point, is using that metal for something it was never meant to be used for.

3. All gas dampers work on Velocity. At idle, the shock would be doing nothing at all b/c the velocity of the motion is very slow. When you "speed shift" this of course causes the engine to torque very violently at a high rate of speed. The damper reacts, and resists this quick movement. To know what Kind of damper you really actually need for this, you would need the tools 240racer descrbed above. Obviously you have non of this test data.

4. Not to be a dick, but this "The dynamics of an automobile is 40% art and 60% science. " Is simply BS. The dynamics of a vehicle are 100% physics. Your design process may be "40% art and 60% science" but that isn't how the real engineers in the Automotive world create things.

There is more but I think that sort of illustrates my point..

This is a fairly sound theory, and I'm sure it works on your car. But you simply don't have the expertise/engineering know how, or the test data to try to market these the way you are. Seems to me you are taking a big risk. If a kid buys one, installs it, and it rips the side of his strut tower out, then he CAN sue you for the damages.

I would rather spend $100 on something with some good solid R&D with test data, than $40 on something that you think is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I think your on to a good idea here.. just needs more development. check out this
http://www.isaacdirect.com/

I know its a safety device, but it is a device using a damper in a nonconventional way. It may give you some good information, and insight into what is expected.

[gbaker]

So this is where all the hits are coming from.

Yup, shock force varies with velocity.

[240Stilo]

Originally posted by sykikchimp
...couple concerns

Seems to me you are taking a big risk. If a kid buys one, installs it, and it rips the side of his strut tower out, then he CAN sue you for the damages.

Now there you go giving people ideas. Bill needs a lawsuit like a hole in his head. :hammer: I wish him the best of luck though.

[Bill Roberts]

Well, I know what I know...I had some dynamics testing done and it is safe.

IF you want it, email me, if not, you will not know how great it is.


If a moderator feels this is not a good idea to involve zilvia, then I will just do this direct and you can save the zilvia donation of 12 bucks each.

Here are some points to ponder and I am NOT going to give out my data..I worked for it, I earned it. I got lucky because I did not have to try 20 different units. This one fit the situation.

http://www.lordmpd.com/docs/ia_engineering.pdf

I try to be simple on zilvia and not too technical. I can bump heads with any and all of the ones pushing the slide rule if need be. This thing, in its place will never exceed 20% (even with 400HP) of any of the mounting locations load limits or "the art" which is the driver.

Remember, what is called BS may not be. 60% Science and 40% art. Art is the driver. A car is a piece of junk without one.

[Bill Roberts]

To all those that know this is not BS, thanks!

I drifted hard with it today and I was able to introduce some serious sideslips that the marks were right on top the other for the rear tires. Certainly the engine to rear tires is vastly improved.


Enter into a turn at 15MPh and hit second at full lock and shower down and instill 180 to snap out of a fishtail at 5K rpm was killer...ususally I had to slip the clutch. I did not touch the clutch and the rear end just rocked.

Those who do not think it will work for them probably need not apply...as you will find fault somewhere...but it is getting better by the day..

I took it off for reference purposes and the car just is no longer hooked up to the tires than with it. I love it, I am keeping it/

It works.

[s0ldats]

i love new innovations and ideas.. let us know when the second batch is ready.

[docrice]

After everyone gets theirs on, i'm gonna do a 1-up on everyone...adjustable shocks (sarchasm)...but seriously, we could sell ricers this kinda stuff if it had an APC logo on it, or even try to sell them airbags or hydros for their engines...you can sell anything if you paint it bright colors and put it at pep boys....just my $0.02

[drift_newbie]

I've been reading this thread with great interest, and I'm somewhat interested in the damper. But, I've got to say this to those that aren't interested:

IF YOU DON'T THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA, OR DON'T WANT IT, FINE. BUT QUIT PUMMELING THIS THREAD WITH REPLIES OF WHY IT SHOULDN'T/DOESN'T WORK, OR WHY IT ISN'T A GOOD IDEA.

Bill seems like a pretty decent guy from what I've seen here on Zilvia, and I think that he's just trying to give others the opportunity to experience what he feels is a truly great improvement for our cars. So, if you're not interested, great, QUIT REPLYING.

*Steps down from soapbox*

-Ben

[Bill Roberts]

[DJ Machine]

Seems everyone has failed to realize that they sell these over at Project Silvia...they cost like $110, but theyre more compact and sexy green, they also dont require any drilling..

[Bill Roberts]

Well, to answer your post...their is a huge difference from a nitrogen filled shockabsorber and a pipe that has a rubber bump stop in it.

When someone actually gets one on their car, they will see what it is all about..until that time..all this is words.

I would bend the bump stop damper on my car in a speed shift. It has a very limited movement. Mine can move if needed but it moves very slowly and absorbs shock...rather than damp motion.

Don't flame me..I am just setting the record strait here.

[DJ Machine]

i dont know about either one, i just noticed that no one had mentioned that rod at Project silvia