Weight obsession - part weights on S13

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Def

^Just watched the videos. Of course a modded NA Z33 HR will make boatloads more power than an S2000. It looked like the S2000 handled a bit better from apex speeds, but the Z33 would just pull out from there.

The nodded cars in the second video are not HR cars.

And that is my point, the S2K weight and adgillity are out matched by the Zs power.

[SlideKing92]

Get the BN Style inverted hatch from chaser.... Im debating picking one of these up and seeing how much weight it will shave off, Just my 2 cents though

[Def]

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

^
it could be also driver.

And DEF

Dammmmm u got major credibility !!! U post something and u get thousand of views to read your words!!! major pull....

Yea, I've got the S chassis groupies...

[codyace]

Originally Posted by kognition

I hear what you guys are saying about removing as much as possible. From my experience, the lightest car does not win championships. The most well balanced and consistent car does. And i am just as passionate as the next guy about weight reduction. But unless i see you out there winning contingency money with it, it doesn't mean much.

I couldn't agree with you more. All to often people get caught up with weight, when the truth is that a reliable and consistant car is what really counts most. Certainly there are all things we can do to save weight that help out, and that are easily changed (wheels, carbon fiber panels, suspension parts) but beyond that, I (and I may sound very simple for admitting this) would much rather just play with the horsepower of the car, and the setup. Trust me, I'd love a super light car, but in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather try to make more HP and find more traction after a certain point.

As before I do not discredit the bantam weight obsession, I just think there is often to much emphasis put on it for street based cars.

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

^
Dammmmm u got major credibility !!! U post something and u get thousand of views to read your words!!! major pull....

That's because he's one of the few of us on here that actually knows what he's talking about/capable of working on his car. Once you seperate the wheat from the chaff on Zilvia, you'll soon realize who the real DIY guys are

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by codyace

That's because he's one of the few of us on here that actually knows what he's talking about/capable of working on his car. Once you seperate the wheat from the chaff on Zilvia, you'll soon realize who the real DIY guys are

Wait, so are you a real "DIY Guy" if you need a DIY?

LOL

[e1_griego]

Can't you back to trolling TCL?

[Def]

Originally Posted by codyace

I couldn't agree with you more. All to often people get caught up with weight, when the truth is that a reliable and consistant car is what really counts most. Certainly there are all things we can do to save weight that help out, and that are easily changed (wheels, carbon fiber panels, suspension parts) but beyond that, I (and I may sound very simple for admitting this) would much rather just play with the horsepower of the car, and the setup. Trust me, I'd love a super light car, but in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather try to make more HP and find more traction after a certain point.

As before I do not discredit the bantam weight obsession, I just think there is often to much emphasis put on it for street based cars.

I do agree that weight loss shouldn't be a major focus before the car is dialed in, but I feel like in my case, I've got the suspension pretty well DONE. It's all solid/rod end/spherical - good dampers - roll center is corrected somewhat - roll stiffness and balance is good. I just need less weight to hustle it around the track quicker. Plus it's R-comps all the time as soon as these NT-05s die(they're lasting a surprising amount of time as they wear down). I really haven't paid a huge amount of attention to dropping the pounds on the car up until now, and I feel like that's the next area to mess with the car.

If you were making a general observation of Zilvia, then yea, I'd say a lot of guys spend way too much time obsessing over weight when their car is just not well put together or setup. You'll gain way more time making sure everything works well together vs. taking off 50 lbs on your car and having it be setup like a nightmare.

Oh another note, went to a local shop and saw a Koni yellow piston vs. a Stance coilover piston. The stance piston was laughable. So was their adjuster mechanism.

[xpertsnowcarver]

Originally Posted by Def

I just need less weight to hustle it around the track quicker. Plus it's R-comps all the time as soon as these NT-05s die(they're lasting a surprising amount of time as they wear down). I really haven't paid a huge amount of attention to dropping the pounds on the car up until now, and I feel like that's the next area to mess with the car.

Do I get some credit for this epiphony of yours?

Seriously though... You daily that car don't you? There isn't much for you to do.

I have nothing under the dash except wires and an ecu, no stereo, no driver or pass windows, carpet, sound deadening, panels, super light wheels... I could go on but, this is no longer a car anyone should drive on the street.. If you're not using your car to get around anymore, then go for it. If you already took care of suspension and power, which I know you have, the only two things left for you are aero and weight reduction.

[josephin510]

Originally Posted by Def

Oh another note, went to a local shop and saw a Koni yellow piston vs. a Stance coilover piston. The stance piston was laughable. So was their adjuster mechanism.

What do you mean?

[Def]

Originally Posted by xpertsnowcarver

Do I get some credit for this epiphony of yours?

Seriously though... You daily that car don't you? There isn't much for you to do.

I have nothing under the dash except wires and an ecu, no stereo, no driver or pass windows, carpet, sound deadening, panels, super light wheels... I could go on but, this is no longer a car anyone should drive on the street.. If you're not using your car to get around anymore, then go for it. If you already took care of suspension and power, which I know you have, the only two things left for you are aero and weight reduction.

haha - no, the epiphony came when I put the car on scales.

I do not daily the car, or even drive it on the street often. It probably gets less than 1-2k miles on the street over the course of a year, most of that going to and from track events.

Now as far as removing windows - I don't know if I want to go that far. My wheels aren't very light (A-Tech Weapons), but they're cheap. There's probably another 12-16 lbs to save there, but lots of $$$ for that weight savings.

I am taking out the stereo, couple of speakers that are left, and the door panels(they're right at 6 lbs each, kinda surprised at that).

[Def]

Originally Posted by josephin510

What do you mean?

What do you mean what do I mean? The Stance coilover was junk, and the adjuster was just some needle valve being moved in a bypass circuit. The "clicks" are just drilled holes under the adjuster with a ball detent, so more holes = "more clicks." Super performance oriented yo!

They also had a laughable shim stack, but it explains why their compression and rebound curves are almost completely linear.

[SoSideways]

Yeah I am definitely going to sell off these Stance coilovers as soon as I have a chance. Riding around like I'm bouncing on a pogo stick is not fun.

[Wookie384]

Originally Posted by Corbic

As promised
YouTube - Nissan 350Z 2007model VS. Honda S2000

350z best lap 1:07,63
S2K best lap 1:09,17

YouTube - The Ulitimate FR Challenge Z33 vs. S2000 - Hot Version International - 1/2
YouTube - The Ulitimate FR Challenge Z33 vs. S2000 - Hot Version International 2/2

Originally Posted by Def

That's not really that big of a surprise in stock form, as the S2000 understeers a bit in AP2 trim and is pretty slow compared to an HR Z33. That 1.5 s difference is almost completely up to power differences.

Originally Posted by Def

^Just watched the videos. Of course a modded NA Z33 HR will make boatloads more power than an S2000. It looked like the S2000 handled a bit better from apex speeds, but the Z33 would just pull out from there.

Originally Posted by Corbic

The nodded cars in the second video are not HR cars.

And that is my point, the S2K weight and adgillity are out matched by the Zs power.

To be fair in the S2K's defense the one tested is a heavier model. You can see the S2K has navi/video screen, and if I'm not mistaken the VGS model as tested is useless and heavier. AP1's are known for being twitchy in the corners, but you can still get an AP2's rear end to break traction, and they talk about it in the video below, it also shows the S2K being slower but not by that much, they even agree the the S2K handles better because it's lighter perhaps? Which is what this topic is about light weight cars.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by Def

If you were making a general observation of Zilvia, then yea, I'd say a lot of guys spend way too much time obsessing over weight when their car is just not well put together or setup. You'll gain way more time making sure everything works well together vs. taking off 50 lbs on your car and having it be setup like a nightmare.

Yes my comment was certainly generic. I know you (and some of us) certainly have oru setups about as modified as they can or should be for a street based car (we have the same mods) so I can understand your particular focus of keeping it light. But as before, I just wanted to stress to the casual observer, that attention to the chassis setup is MUCH more important when startin gout, than keeping it light on it's feet.

Oh another note, went to a local shop and saw a Koni yellow piston vs. a Stance coilover piston. The stance piston was laughable. So was their adjuster mechanism.

I just got in a discussion today with an s2000 buddy of mine who swears up and down his JDM type coilovers are the best option. He didn't really grasp how my car has 'home made coilovers' yet handles so well. Oh the power of print (well the media)!

[godrifttoday]

Hey Cody wasn't there a link I think on Nissanroad racing about koni build and what parts u need? Maybe def should know?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by codyace

I just got in a discussion today with an s2000 buddy of mine who swears up and down his JDM type coilovers are the best option. He didn't really grasp how my car has 'home made coilovers' yet handles so well. Oh the power of print (well the media)!

Try the webforums.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

Hey Cody wasn't there a link I think on Nissanroad racing about koni build and what parts u need? Maybe def should know?

Def and I have the same setup (obviously s13 and s14 respectivly). Check out Nissan Road Racing for the Koni 8611 group buy from Veilside (richard).

Also, search here for 'OptionZero' and his write up.

Originally Posted by Corbic

Try the webforums.

Huh?

I was just making a sarcastic comment about the common idiocy of forums.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by codyace

Huh?

I was just making a sarcastic comment about the common idiocy of forums.

I was agreeing. While advertisements may play a part in misconceptions, web forums do far more to propagate false facts and lies.

Good example of the coilovers was back in the day, it was all about TEIN, then Megan and Ksport came out and where gods, their out, Stance and PBM are in... but for how long?

[projectRDM]

My old S14 was never turbocharged, but it was damn quick. I miss it a lot sometimes thinking about how responsive it was. The power/weight arguments are dead on, the lighter weight does make a world of difference on the track. I went to Road Atlanta twice, exactly one year apart, and could tell a substantial difference in braking just with 200lbs extra removed the second time. The brakes lasted longer too, by session end I wasn't pumping for dear life like a year before. Better braking into a turn gives you more time to get back on the power out of it too, resulting in faster laps.

My problem came from lightening the rear of the car too much combined with stiffening the chassis so much. On track it was fine due to the longer, wider turns, but running in autocross where the turns are tighter and the speed is reduced, the car had tremendous oversteer. I couldn't keep it planted very well without going with wider, stickier tires. More power then would have been useless. There is definitely a balance to be had without just chopping the car to pieces and boosting it to death.

[slider2828]

Man, seriously you can't compare cars on the track.... Weight is weight period. It does make the car handle better in corners under breaking and under acceleration period. For comparing cars, that ebisu east course is a power course. Long corners and uphill are for power. If we were more on a flat track with less elevation change and more technical tracks would be an S2k track. Hence that is what the late Tanabe-san from Amuse said at the beginning, both cars have different characteristics therefore the track can make a huge difference.

Adequate power is important, but on our S chassis that is totally not balanced, suspension and rear downforce is the most important period. I do trackdays a lot and so does racepar and lot of other guys that spank porsches all day. But whatever, weight is an all around factor, HP means nothing. 20WHP difference vs 20lb loss, I'd take the 20lb loss especially in the front end of the S chassis. So we can't say a 100/30 whp/tq difference can be made up that easily, but a 20-30 whp can be with weight.

I will be at Laguna and another track this month, hopefully I get some video hahaha....

[SoSideways]

20lbs lost in the front is easy. Replacing the stock hood with an aftermarket FRP hood will get you there.

Lighter brakes like Def's new hotness will also help.

[Wookie384]

All this talk about lightweight S chassis got me thinking what my target weight should be for my NA SR'd hatch...

[codyace]

Originally Posted by projectRDM

There is definitely a balance to be had without just chopping the car to pieces and boosting it to death.

This sums up my thoughts as well. There is undoubtedly a preferred combintation here. To much HP and no weight is just as bad as to much weight and no power. To me 350-400 whp turbo 2.0/2.4 in a 2300-2600 lb car is almost ideal for a street based S chassis car. That's C6 Z06 power to weight level. That's not to say that 450-500 whp in the same weight will be bad, but you need to put some serious rubber under it, and really change the driving style with a car.

Originally Posted by Wookie384

All this talk about lightweight S chassis got me thinking what my target weight should be for my NA SR'd hatch...

When torque isn't readily available (persay in an N/A 2.0 engine) I'd vote for as light as you could get that platform.

[xpertsnowcarver]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

20lbs lost in the front is easy. Replacing the stock hood with an aftermarket FRP hood will get you there.

Lighter brakes like Def's new hotness will also help.

Yes, they will.

Originally Posted by Wookie384

All this talk about lightweight S chassis got me thinking what my target weight should be for my NA SR'd hatch...

2000lb (wet weight w/o driver) is easy to get to. I'm at 2280 right now, and I haven't messed with the front and rear windshields, hatch, fuel tank, front and rear bumpers, fenders.

[godrifttoday]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCqzn...layer_embedded

[Wookie384]

Originally Posted by codyace

When torque isn't readily available (persay in an N/A 2.0 engine) I'd vote for as light as you could get that platform.

Originally Posted by xpertsnowcarver

2000lb (wet weight w/o driver) is easy to get to. I'm at 2280 right now, and I haven't messed with the front and rear windshields, hatch, fuel tank, front and rear bumpers, fenders.

Hmmm... Sounds like I, as well as the car, need to go on a diet, I weigh about 260~270 lol... I plan on gutting out the car, it's currently a SE model w/o sunroof (thank god!) which I plan on downgrading to a base model, luckily, I have a friend who has a base model and wants all my power accessories, so if/when we finally get around to doing the swap I can weigh all the parts and post that up. I do have a 4.36 final drive to help with the lack of power, and I don't plan on going lexan anytime soon but maybe in the distant future that would be a possibility.The car is currently a rolling shell and I plan on getting it running in stock trim so I can learn the characteristics of the car being that this is my first S chassis and first RWD car.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by Wookie384

Hmmm... Sounds like I, as well as the car, need to go on a diet, I weigh about 260~270 lol... I plan on gutting out the car, it's currently a SE model w/o sunroof (thank god!) which I plan on downgrading to a base model, luckily, I have a friend who has a base model and wants all my power accessories, so if/when we finally get around to doing the swap I can weigh all the parts and post that up. I do have a 4.36 final drive to help with the lack of power, and I don't plan on going lexan anytime soon but maybe in the distant future that would be a possibility.The car is currently a rolling shell and I plan on getting it running in stock trim so I can learn the characteristics of the car being that this is my first S chassis and first RWD car.

With an N/A car, it may not be a bad idea to possibly even look into a 4.6 and then raise the rev's to the 8300-8500 range. That would be kinda fun.

Good friend of mine had a NX2000 that used to be a full on N/A car with a upgraded final drive and bolt ons(hotshot header, intake, JWT S5 cams, etc etc) and it was a blast to rocket it to north of 8000 rpm) He's since went VVL (which is even more fun as it isn't totally gutless) but man that thing loved the upper RPM

[SoSideways]

If it's VVL then he definitely should be around 8000-8500rpm all day.

If it has a DE bottom end, then forget it, 9000rpm all day.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by Corbic

And that is my point, the S2K weight and adgillity are out matched by the Zs power.

Just because you found some internet video where the z-s are spanking the s2k's does not make it universally true. From my own personal experience running track events I can assure you that it is usually the opposite of what you are claiming that is true. Let's not forget that the "Street RWD" record at buttonwillow is held by the Evasive S2K, not any z chasis. Personally I would rather own the z then the s2k, but I cannot disrespect the little Honda's capabilities.

[slider2828]

^^ I think that was a full cf turbo s2k LOL.... Its a great car, but its a beef'ed up miata LOL..... maybe a little better than the miata....