Crankcase ventilation directly to atmosphere?

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

You do realize that you're contradicting yourself, right?

The SR20DET never came factory with a catch can. That black box, is not a catch can.

Moron.

I dont quite get what you are saying, please be more specific. Right now you are just repeating what I said several time, glad it finally sunk in.

Very friendly tone btw glad to have you as a fellow member.

[zombiewolf513]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

gem chem
organic chem
biochem
inorganic chem
physical chem
physics



Your terminology needs work.

PCV is just the name of the system. You cannot route PCV to anything because it refers to the entire working system as a whole which routes several places.
1. the pcv VALVE (which is what you are referring to) Routes to the intake manifold. This is factory design.
2. The valvecover T on the S13, which is just a 5/8 valvecover PORT on the S14, Routes to the INLET PLUMBING before the turbocharger compressor (and back to the oil pan on the S13)

Anybody with any basic knowledge of the topic at hand knows what I was referring to. Just stop talking. Youre splitting hairs- "OMG you said MAF instead of MAF sensor!!!"

[mewantkouki]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

LOL this really makes me laugh.
1. Carbon chains IS oil. Just say oil. You can say Alkanes if you want. Be specific.
2. Oil, IS carbon chains. Way to list the same thing twice. Why dont we just say Alkanes?
3. Moisture... Is water molecules, as a vapour/GAS when oil is over 212*F at sea level. Which again, will not get caught in a catch can. And furthermore, can not be filtered out by any catch can produced by any manufacturer. Water is a non issue for a running engine once the engine hits operating temperature. Have you ever drained your catch can and found water? LOL!

Apparently!

So far the only two things you mentioned coming out of the valvecover are: oil and water. Still dont see "crap".

Actually you're wrong. Moisture is any condensed or diffuse liquid. Last I checked oil was a liquid. Coincidentally it can be vaporized (hint hint). So finish chemistry before you try to "drop knowledge" on people. Our air contains water. Look at a phase diagram and you'll understand how it's possible to get water inside of a catch can. It's comes from the air!

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by zombiewolf513

Anybody with any basic knowledge of the topic at hand knows what I was referring to. Just stop talking. Youre splitting hairs- "OMG you said MAF instead of MAF sensor!!!"

MAF is different from MAF sensor. You have to go by context. If we are discussing the sensor, and someone says MAF, yeah we mean MAF sensor.

But if I offhanded said MAF, I might mean mass air flow. NOT the sensor. I know this would seem ODD to some, but we do not all live in the same place, and use the same terminology all the time. If I worked in a field where MAF was constantly used as "mass air flow" as in, the mass of air entering or leaving something, then it would not seem so odd.

I am only trying to keep everybody, especially beginners, on the same page. You cant just throw around the term "PCV" as if everybody knows exactly which part of the system you are refering to. PCV could be a valve, a tube, an intake portion, it could be a pumping system, belt drive or exhaust driven, it could be a portion of the valvecover, an oil separator, Think of more examples.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by mewantkouki

Actually you're wrong. Moisture is any condensed or diffuse liquid. Last I checked oil was a liquid. Coincidentally it can be vaporized (hint hint). So finish chemistry before you try to "drop knowledge" on people. Our air contains water. Look at a phase diagram and you'll understand how it's possible to get water inside of a catch can. It's comes from the air!

Nobody is dumping water out of their catch can unless there is a serious problem.

yes, air contains water. But oil will NOT contain (much!) water once it hits 212*F at sea level.
water will ALWAYS be present as a gas in the atmosphere here in Florida. It will DIFFUSE into engine oil once that oil gets below 212*F at sea level.
No matter where the oil is, catch can, or crank case. I said it would not be CAUGHT by a catch can, which is 100% true. Catch cans do not "catch" water, that is, the water will not STAY in the catch can. It is constantly entering, and exiting, both your crank case, AND catch can, AND body.

And gas is the same as vapour, we already covered this.

[mewantkouki]

You aren't accounting for the water that condenses out of the air within the tubing leading to the can. (That's where it comes from) Your oil vapor isn't 212*. This is fact. If you don't believe me, try a science experiment. Go and purchase a water trap aka compressed air filter from home depot. Connect it to your positive crank case vent and the other end to a suction source (turbine inlet) and observe the WATER and oily scum that accumulates in it after a few weeks of driving. If you're still not convinced perform fractional separation or send it in to one of those oil analysis places.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by mewantkouki

You aren't accounting for the water that condenses out of the air within the tubing leading to the can. (That's where it comes from) Your oil vapor isn't 212*. This is fact. If you don't believe me, try a science experiment. Go and purchase a water trap aka compressed air filter from home depot. Connect it to your positive crank case vent and the other end to a suction source (turbine inlet) and observe the WATER and oily scum that accumulates in it after a few weeks of driving. If you're still not convinced perform fractional separation or send it in to one of those oil analysis places.

Any water in the plumbing, along any point, that happens to condense, will simply re-evaporate. It doesn't turn into a puddle, and evade the laws of physics and sit there forever.

Interesting thing to add to the discussion though. I am glad you brought this up. Water is evaporating FROM the engine oil, as it reaches 212*F at sea level. Yes, these water molecules will want to leave the crank case. Yes they do as you foretold- stopping along the way to condense anywhere they desire.

But just because water is below boiling point, does not mean they never will evaporate. Ice in your freezer SHRINKS over time because water molecules are escaping the ice.

[mewantkouki]

I agree, if your catch can's internal temperature is 100* F. But it's not, so you're wrong.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by mewantkouki

I agree, if your catch can's internal temperature is 100* F. But it's not, so you're wrong.

What is the temperature of your freezer?

Water molecules still evaporate from ice at that temperature.

That is also the reason that items become freezer burnt. Water molecules leave the items in your freezer, such as vegetable or meats, leaving a dry item behind.
Would you like me to whip out the physics book on this one?

[mewantkouki]

If you can remove air from the equation (which you cannot) then you would be correct and the can would only contain hydrocarbon.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by mewantkouki

If you can remove air from the equation (which you cannot) then you would be correct and the can would only contain hydrocarbon.

Now I have no idea what you are trying to say. We were discussing water molecules. What... happened ? This reply doesn't make any sense.

[zombiewolf513]

Stop arguing with him. His vast intelligence is far superior to your primitive mind.

[mewantkouki]

Lets have another science lesson my misguided friend. Evaporation by definition is the transition of a liquid to the gas phase assuming unsaturated conditions. Water does not evaporate from ice. I believe the term you are looking for is melting. That occurs at anything above the freezing point of water which is 32*F. What you might be referring to is the process known as sublimation. This is the transition of a solid directly to the gas phase. (Not passing GO, not collecting $200) It only occurs at below freezing temperatures.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by mewantkouki

Lets have another science lesson my misguided friend. Evaporation by definition is the transition of a liquid to the gas phase assuming unsaturated conditions. Water does not evaporate from ice. I believe the term you are looking for is melting. That occurs at anything above the freezing point of water which is 32*F. What you might be referring to is the process known as sublimation. This is the transition of a solid directly to the gas phase. (Not passing GO, not collecting $200) It only occurs at below freezing temperatures.

Didn't know you knew that word. I thought it would confuse you.
Good points for you. However, water is still evaporating from your catch can.

Originally Posted by mewantkouki

I agree, if your catch can's internal temperature is 100* F. But it's not, so you're wrong.

BTW what happens at 100*F ? You just made that up, didnt you. minus points.

[zombiewolf513]

Either way, oil and contaminants are vaporized in the air inside the engine and pulled from the engine through vacuum, to a catch can, where most of the oil and contaminants are trapped, like a filter, and the remaining air goes back into the system. Argue with that tal0n.

[mewantkouki]

Yes, water is evaporating from the catch can. It's rate of evaporation is dependent on the temperature and the length of time it is in the can. If you leave a glass of water outside in the heat uncovered the same thing happens. How does that prove your point that water doesn't enter or condense into a catch can? Thus far I haven't seen one shred of evidence to support your claims other than your organic chemistry (chirality and molecular geometry have nothing to do with your point) one exams and paltry attempts to insult my intelligence.

[zombiewolf513]

Florida vs Florida. Take Florida back, mewantkouki!

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by zombiewolf513

Either way, oil and contaminants are vaporized in the air (inside the engine) and pulled from the engine through vacuum, to a catch can, where most of the oil and contaminants are trapped, like a filter, and the remaining air goes back into the system. Argue that tal0n.

Well you give me no choice huh.

Lets see,
first, Oil is "vaporized" good so far.
Contaminants are vaporized, lets say SOME contaminants are vaporized (many stay in the crank case as well).
Pulled from the engine via vacuum. Good so far.

Pulled from the engine via vacuum, to a catch can. HMM. Since there is also a vacuum present on the other side of the valvecover where there is NO catch can, we cannot say that all oil vapour is directed towards a catch can. Only SOME of the vapour is going towards a catch can.

And last, "where most of the oil and contaminants are trapped, like a filter"
Because:
1. we do not know how effective each catch can is at acting like a filter
and
2. Not all engines use an actual catch can, like the redtop does not trap anything in the black box, so nothing is actually filtered. A catch can is something most people need to ADD to their engine as a custom design.
and
3. While oil could certainly be trapped easily enough, remember that not all oil returns from a vapour to a liquid inside the catch can, so some oily vapour still exists the catch can and becomes injested by the engine.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by mewantkouki

Yes, water is evaporating from the catch can. It's rate of evaporation is dependent on the temperature and the length of time it is in the can. If you leave a glass of water outside in the heat uncovered the same thing happens. How does that prove your point that water doesn't enter or condense into a catch can? Thus far I haven't seen one shred of evidence to support your claims other than your organic chemistry (chirality and molecular geometry have nothing to do with your point) one exams and paltry attempts to insult my intelligence.

You just lack reading skills. I clearly said, Ahem QUOTE:

water will ALWAYS be present as a gas in the atmosphere here in Florida. It will DIFFUSE into engine oil once that oil gets below 212*F at sea level.

No matter where the oil is, catch can, or crank case.

Also, you forgot surface area regarding the rate of evaporation.

[mewantkouki]

What about the one way check valve that locks the pcv shut under non negative pressure? If it' didn't you'd pressurize your crank case. Technically the engine on anything other than idle or de-accel condition is pushing that oily scum towards the "can".

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by mewantkouki

What about the one way check valve that locks the pcv shut under non negative pressure? If it' didn't you'd pressurize your crank case. Technically the engine on anything other than idle or de-accel condition is pushing that oily scum towards the "can".

Way to move on to the next subject without even asking a question. What do you mean "what about the one way check valve"

What about the one way check valve? If it works, GREAT. If it doesn't, Replace it. A great OEM design for sure.

[mewantkouki]

Answer these questions.

What is pushed out of the PCV? (both sides & it's composition)

What is on it's way to the catch can? (composition)

What collects in catch can? (regardless of evaporation over time / STP)

[mewantkouki]

Surface area is negligible in this argument... If you want to nitpick I bet you didn't consider vapor pressure either. I also know the difference between *C & *F, I though you would have inferred that by now.

[jr_ss]

As the cookie crumbles...

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by mewantkouki

Answer these questions.

What is pushed out of the PCV? (both sides & it's composition)

What is on it's way to the catch can? (composition)

What collects in catch can? (regardless of evaporation over time / STP)

Ill play your game because these are great points that have been left out of this discussion because it is beyond the scope- but you seem curious so Ill do my best to help you.

What is pushed out of the PCV,
This is the same as question #2: Composition of what is removed from the crank case. And what collects in the can? this is also a composition question. You asked the same question 3 times.

but thats ok. It seems like you are entirely interested in what the engine is producing and what is getting into the engine oil and vaporizing. Which is awesome!


The Composition of engine oil is where we shall begin. Does anybody know what is inside engine oil? Oh wait, every engine oil is different. All different manufacturers of engine oils use different blends of additives in their oils. Therefore, it is impossible for any individual to know the composition of their engine oil unless they themselves created it.

We can make generalizations anyways:

Lubricating oil - used for motor oil, grease, other lubricants
liquid
long chain (20 to 50 carbon atoms) alkanes, cycloalkanes, aromatics
boiling range = 572 to 700 degrees Fahrenheit / 300 to 370 degrees Celsius
http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...-refining2.htm

The main ingredient of engine oil is long chains of carbon, fully hydrogenated. There are many volatile components in engine oil as well, but I will get to that.


So when you first pour engine oil into a fresh brand new engine, you mostly have these long chains of carbon, "alkanes". They sit in the pan right?

So you start the engine now. Combustion takes place, and some of that leaks into the engine oil (blow-by). Now your engine oil is becoming contaminated with byproducts of combustion. Those byproducts include gasoline (shorter chains of carbon) and literally an almost infinite number of partially oxidized portions of carbon chains, both of oil and gasoline.

Let me repeat that another way. When you burn gasoline, you get H2O and CO2 IDEALLY. However, due to the additives, and the stoichiometry of the process, and the temperature at which it occurs, and other factors, you also wind up with thousands of by-products, some of which are toxic, some of which are contaminants that persist in the engine oil, some of which harmlessly evaporate, some of which go on to perform further reactions to become something else. So in answer to the composition question, there are literally thousands, perhaps millions of possible orientations of molecules being produced, both entering and exiting the engine oil while an engine is running.


Lets classify some of them:
1. solid particulate. Metal atoms flaking away from the combustion chamber or cylinder walls. Metal debris released from engine bearing occasionally. Compounds of carbon that are partially oxidized that do not solvate well in engine oil. Anything in the atmosphere that managed to get into your engine (pollen, dust, fungus spores, hair, compounds of carbon from previously living cells, etc...).

These things will become evenly distributed in your engine oil, and hopefully the oil filter can remove them. Most of them do not evaporate and so they will rarely find their way to your catch can, unless carried out with liquid oil. Your best defense here is an oil change.

2. gaseous volatile compounds. These will evaporate and usually stay gaseous. The pcv system will direct them to the combustion chamber and they will be released into the exhaust for the most part. Any gaseous state molecules that find themselves in the catch can would simply diffuse right back out, being a gas.

3. Liquids that are temporarily vaporized by the vigorous churning of the engine, such as oil vapors. These are gas state molecules that behave as gasses but will probably return to a liquid state shortly after entering the PCV system. This is the oil that coats the inside of your intake manifold, and coat the rubber intake tube of your compressor inlet, and possibly your compressor wheel and intercooler. This is the main reason to add a catch can, inline, between the valve cover, and turbocharger. It will help prevent an oily mess from accumulating in your expensive turbocharger. notice, however, that the same effect may be acheived by an appropriatly lengthy tube, instead of a catch can. By giving the oily vapour a chance to settle somewhere BEFORE the air reaches the turbocharger, will acheive the same effect as "catching" it in a catch can. having a catch can also present an opportunity to catch a large volume of oil should the engine suffer catastrophic failure.


So, summary,
-solids generally stay in the engine, hopefully stop in the oil filter, and get changed with the oil
-gases that stay gases get exhausted
-liquids (like oil) coat any plumbing between the crank case and vacuum source
-nobody knows all the exact composition of all engine oils, all manufacturers use different additives
-thousands, potentially millions of different compounds are formed as by-products of a running engine in the combustion process

[hobbs]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

As the cookie crumbles...

If you think this is bad head over to the dash where you have a ton of people with inflated egos that act like this.

But now I know why hes offering people 60 dollars shipped on SR CASs, guess those entry level chem classes are expensive.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by hobbs

If you think this is bad head over to the dash where you have a ton of people with inflated egos that act like this.

But now I know why hes offering people 60 dollars shipped on SR CASs, guess those entry level chem classes are expensive.

Act like what? Spend my time sharing free information? I endure hours of constant abuse from the entire website to bring knowledge to the community? Yeah, thats horrible! Im so BAD!

[mewantkouki]

I didn't ask what the composition of engine oil was. I asked you what the mystery substance exiting the pcv is. So far we have concluded that it is made up of oil and air. You yourself said that it is impossible to remove all of the water from the air in florida or anywhere else aside from the north and south poles. So as that oily air mess exits the engine, (where it was once the magical 212 degrees farenheit that obliterates everyhing) it CONDENSES back into it's liquid phase. This means not only are oil, contaminants and trace amounts of whatever else the engine blew out there but WATER too. How long that water remains in the can are a result of other factors at work: Wind, heat, increase in surface area, dryness, volatility of the liquid, and vapor pressure. This means it isn't far fetched to open a catch can and observe a mixture of the above. Anyone can share information! Sharing the right information is what matters.

[zombiewolf513]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Act like what? Spend my time sharing free information? I endure hours of constant abuse from the entire website to bring knowledge to the community? Yeah, thats horrible! Im so BAD!

Your friends don't really like you, do they...

[TheRealSy90]

Well... I use the oem redtop setup because it works and my motor isn't a piece of junk like most.