Please help diagnose my noisy clutch.

[ant]

The guy who just rebuilt my engine says that my clutch master cylinder is going bad, the guy at the auto parts store says it could be that or the slave cylinder.  I'm just hoping its not the throw-out bearing.  The problem is that when I am backing up or down shift the clutch makes a howling noise and will vibrate once I've come to a complete stop if the car is still in gear and the clutch is completely depressed.  Please any and all ideas are welcome and appreciated.

[whateverjames]

i've heard of people having their output shaft going out and it makes a noise.......i've heard of people not getting it taken care of and it will take out a few gears once it breaks &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

[BlackS14]

Can you feel vibration in the clutch pedal when it's fully depressed...sounds like a throw-out bearing to me. My old stocker did that before I finally got around to installing the new OEM clutch I had sitting in my room for a month. I'm no expert, but sounds like what mine did.

[Grant]

I have that noise as well. It is the pilot bushing or Throw out bearing.

[ant]

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sneaky.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='issed:'> I really don't want it to be the throw out bearing &nbsp;I can feel the vibration in the clutch pedal when it is depressed, as well as the gas pedal and the steering wheel. &nbsp;It's not a strong vibration but it is the same vibration in all three places.
It's not the price really, throwout bearing and master cylinder cost about the same thing, but I hate pulling the tranny.

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ant @ Mar. 07 2002,7:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The guy who just rebuilt my engine says that my clutch master cylinder is going bad, the guy at the auto parts store says it could be that or the slave cylinder. I'm just hoping its not the throw-out bearing. The problem is that when I am backing up or down shift the clutch makes a howling noise and will vibrate once I've come to a complete stop if the car is still in gear and the clutch is completely depressed. Please any and all ideas are welcome and appreciated.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
A couple questions (both for me and for you) <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

First, are you losing any fluid in the clutch resevoir? &nbsp;Every time I've known someone w/ a bad master or slave cylinder (sp?), it involves a fluid leak. &nbsp;(Anyone know if there is any other way these CAN go bad?).

Next, is it worse at start up, especially when it is cold out? &nbsp;I'm convinced my TO bearing is going b/c it only makes noise (no vibration, yet) near start up and only when it is below 35 degrees (so far). &nbsp;(I'm guessing it will get worse?). &nbsp;Did your start out like this and get worse (i.e., when shifting)?

[ant]

To answer your first question: &nbsp;no, there doesn't appear to be any fluid loss. &nbsp;As to the second: &nbsp;I live in FL so I have no idea what sounds my car makes below 35 degrees. &nbsp;But I got stuck in a traffic jam yesterday and the hotter it got the worse it got. &nbsp;
BTW, prior to getting the engine rebuilt it didn't make this noise.

[BlackS14]

Forgive me for going off topic, but where in FL do you live ant?

Was wondering if you were aware of the meet that is to soon be held here in Melbourne??

Again...sirry for the OT reply.

[ant]

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'> Lakeland, soon to be Tampa. &nbsp;Please either post the details or send them to me. &nbsp;(Day-dreaming: the sand, the surf, getting the wife in a bikini) <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

[Sick240]

I don't know exactly what it is, but I know that it is not your throw out bearing, if it was, it would make noise when the clutch was completely released, and once you put the clutch to the floor it will stop. You also might want to look into cracked felxplate(flywheel) if it is making clunking noises like a throw-out bearing normally would. &nbsp;And as far as the master cylinder goes, im not too sure, but I have rebuilt braking system master cylinders, but if it is not leaking, and it isnt hard to get into gears, your cup seals, and grommets are all good, and system pressure is being maintained, I wouldnt worry about that unless it is a pain to pop in and out of gears

[HippoSleek]

<!--QuoteBegin--Sick240+Mar. 08 2002,10<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sick240 @ Mar. 08 2002,10<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know exactly what it is, but I know that it is not your throw out bearing, if it was, it would make noise when the clutch was completely released, and once you put the clutch to the floor it will stop. You also might want to look into cracked felxplate(flywheel) if it is making clunking noises like a throw-out bearing normally would. And as far as the master cylinder goes, im not too sure, but I have rebuilt braking system master cylinders, but if it is not leaking, and it isnt hard to get into gears, your cup seals, and grommets are all good, and system pressure is being maintained, I wouldnt worry about that unless it is a pain to pop in and out of gears</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Are you sure about the clutch engagement thing? Mine makes noise when it's on the floor and goes away when released. I thought THAT was the classic TO bearing symptom?

Those were my thoughts exactly on the MC/SC issues - no leaks, no problems.

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'> Floridians with you never cold weather <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'> &nbsp;I don't know the effect of a bad TO bearing when the car is hot (not around here anyway <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> )

[ant]

<!--QuoteBegin--Sick240+Mar. 08 2002,10<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sick240 @ Mar. 08 2002,10<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know exactly what it is, but I know that it is not your throw out bearing, if it was, it would make noise when the clutch was completely released, and once you put the clutch to the floor it will stop. You also might want to look into cracked felxplate(flywheel) if it is making clunking noises like a throw-out bearing normally would. And as far as the master cylinder goes, im not too sure, but I have rebuilt braking system master cylinders, but if it is not leaking, and it isnt hard to get into gears, your cup seals, and grommets are all good, and system pressure is being maintained, I wouldnt worry about that unless it is a pain to pop in and out of gears</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
There is no clunking noise, more like a howl or high pitched growl (make an "eerrrrrrr" sound in an annoying tone and you'll be able to hear the sound for your self.) It only make the sound during the transition after down sifting or putting it in 1st while coasting to a stop with the clutch engaged. It will then continue to make the noise unless it is taken out of gear and the clutch is released. I can then depress the clutch and put the car in gear with no noise.

Despite the fact that I have no leaks I am concerned about maintaining system pressure. I tried bleeding the lines, thinking that perhaps during the rebuild air got in the lines, and the pressure seemed a bit hit and miss, but, I assumed it was because my dad was directing my mom on the clutch while I was operating the bleeder valve. (Mom is not typically involved in car maintainence before anyone starts to poke fun.)

[ant]

Has anyone else got any suggestions?

[DuffMan]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ant @ Mar. 09 2002,11<!--emo&<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sick240 @ Mar. 08 2002,10<!--emo&<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know exactly what it is, but I know that it is not your throw out bearing, if it was, it would make noise when the clutch was completely released, and once you put the clutch to the floor it will stop. &nbsp;You also might want to look into cracked felxplate(flywheel) if it is making clunking noises like a throw-out bearing normally would. &nbsp;And as far as the master cylinder goes, im not too sure, but I have rebuilt braking system master cylinders, but if it is not leaking, and it isnt hard to get into gears, your cup seals, and grommets are all good, and system pressure is being maintained, I wouldnt worry about that unless it is a pain to pop in and out of gears</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
There is no clunking noise, more like a howl or high pitched growl (make an "eerrrrrrr" sound in an annoying tone and you'll be able to hear the sound for your self.) &nbsp;It only make the sound during the transition after down sifting or putting it in 1st while coasting to a stop with the clutch engaged. &nbsp;It will then continue to make the noise unless it is taken out of gear and the clutch is released. &nbsp;I can then depress the clutch and put the car in gear with no noise. &nbsp;

Despite the fact that I have no leaks I am concerned about maintaining system pressure. &nbsp;I tried bleeding the lines, thinking that perhaps during the rebuild air got in the lines, and the pressure seemed a bit hit and miss, but, I assumed it was because my dad was directing my mom on the clutch while I was operating the bleeder valve. &nbsp;(Mom is not typically involved in car maintainence before anyone starts to poke fun.)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
My car does the exact same thing. Unfortunately I'm much too cheap to get it fixed, but if you figure it out, let me know!

EDIT: Hey ant, does your engage position seem to move arround a lot. Mine does. Not sure if they're related. Also mine makes the noise more when its cold, like Hippo was talking about.

[ant]

I haven't noticed if the engage position moves or not, I do not think that it does, but according to another clutch problem post that can be rectified with a "$2 bushing" that goes somewhere on the pedal side of the clutch assembly.

[Sick240]

<!--QuoteBegin--ant+Mar. 08 2002,12<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ant @ Mar. 08 2002,12<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is no clunking noise, more like a howl or high pitched growl (make an "eerrrrrrr" sound in an annoying tone and you'll be able to hear the sound for your self.) It only make the sound during the transition after down sifting or putting it in 1st while coasting to a stop with the clutch engaged. It will then continue to make the noise unless it is taken out of gear and the clutch is released. I can then depress the clutch and put the car in gear with no noise.

Despite the fact that I have no leaks I am concerned about maintaining system pressure. I tried bleeding the lines, thinking that perhaps during the rebuild air got in the lines, and the pressure seemed a bit hit and miss, but, I assumed it was because my dad was directing my mom on the clutch while I was operating the bleeder valve. (Mom is not typically involved in car maintainence before anyone starts to poke fun.)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
my 90 does the howl thing when I try to get it into 1st when I am going too fast, although it will run first faster than that, it still yells at me, as does my friends 97 200sx, so I think that that is just being to hard on your synchro? But I can't think of a reason as to why it could continue doing it, And I am pretty much positive that the throwout bearing only makes noises when the clutch is out, lates

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sick240 @ Mar. 09 2002,10:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">my 90 does the howl thing when I try to get it into 1st when I am going too fast, although it will run first faster than that, it still yells at me, as does my friends 97 200sx, so I think that that is just being to hard on your synchro? But I can't think of a reason as to why it could continue doing it, And I am pretty much positive that the throwout bearing only makes noises when the clutch is out, lates</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yeah - you're problem is that cars aren't really meant to go back into first while moving. &nbsp;

I've always heard that the noise was when the clutch was engaged (i.e., "in"). &nbsp;Anyone who's had this problem care to step up?

[ant]

Yes, but, it also does it when down shifting to 3rd & 2nd, and even 1st even when I wait for the syncronizer to be at a low enough rpm. &nbsp;It also does it when I'm backing up when I depress the clutch while still rolling backwards. &nbsp;I am familiar with the sound that the syncronizer makes and this is a slightly different noise. &nbsp;Anyone who knows what the problem might be please speak up.

[v8killer]

Wow-

You guys have some serious misinformation. The throwout bearing resides on your clutch fork, and when you depress your pedal, the throwout bearing comes in contact with the "fingers" on your clutch's pressure plate. Push on the pressure plate, and the internal diaphragm lets up on the transmission side of the clutch, releasing pressure, so the car stops trying to take off. IF you have a bad t/o bearing, you will hear funny noises when you let your clutch out as it comes in contact with the fingers on the pressure plate, and vice versa. If your pilot bushing is really worn, you COULD get a bit of a vibration as you take off, but it would more than likely be very slight. If you have severly worn and/or broken fingers on your pressure plate, you can DEFINATELY get chatter upon clutch engagement, and even some vibration, if it's worn badly enough. (clutches and pressure plates don't last forever guys, even if you drive it nicely, the fingers are worn off by coming in contact with the t/o bearing EVERYTIME you push your clutch in...)

Regardless, I would think that it would be time to start eliminating some variables to try and remedy your problem. Actual prices on your clutch (stock) are really reasonable- and the work is fairly easy also. (I think I had mine out last month in a matter of a few hours, and back in in the same time.) If you're getting chatter and/or funny noises, but the car still behaves adequately, the clutch is definately going...
Do yourself a favor and REPLACE IT ALL!!!! (save yourself the headaches)
Sorry this was so long!

PeaceOut!
<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (v8killer @ Mar. 11 2002,08:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wow-

You guys have some serious misinformation. The throwout bearing resides on your clutch fork, and when you depress your pedal, the throwout bearing comes in contact with the "fingers" on your clutch's pressure plate. Push on the pressure plate, and the internal diaphragm lets up on the transmission side of the clutch, releasing pressure, so the car stops trying to take off. IF you have a bad t/o bearing, you will hear funny noises when you let your clutch out as it comes in contact with the fingers on the pressure plate, and vice versa. If your pilot bushing is really worn, you COULD get a bit of a vibration as you take off, but it would more than likely be very slight. If you have severly worn and/or broken fingers on your pressure plate, you can DEFINATELY get chatter upon clutch engagement, and even some vibration, if it's worn badly enough. (clutches and pressure plates don't last forever guys, even if you drive it nicely, the fingers are worn off by coming in contact with the t/o bearing EVERYTIME you push your clutch in...)

Regardless, I would think that it would be time to start eliminating some variables to try and remedy your problem. Actual prices on your clutch (stock) are really reasonable- and the work is fairly easy also. (I think I had mine out last month in a matter of a few hours, and back in in the same time.) If you're getting chatter and/or funny noises, but the car still behaves adequately, the clutch is definately going...
Do yourself a favor and REPLACE IT ALL!!!! (save yourself the headaches)
Sorry this was so long!

PeaceOut!
<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'> &nbsp; Awesome reply!

Umm... but for the slow, the bottom line is when you push in the clutch with your foot it makes noise, when the pedal comes back up it stops = bad T/O bearing?

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':blush:'>

[v8killer]

HippoSleek-

Yeah, sort of. When the T/O bearing hits those fingers on the pressure plate, it should sing if it's bad. But technically, when you push the pedal all the way in, it really should stop, from the weight of the clutch fork on the T/O bearing against the pressure plate- that is, IF your T/O bearing isn't COMPLETELY cooked...If it's making noise all the time, I would have it replaced ASAP, or it might just strand you, as well as take out your pressure plate and clutch (possibly even flywheel) while it's at it...you don't even wanna SEE a clutch that had a completely frozen T/O bearing before it went...(but I think I may have some pics somewhere...)LOL!
To answer the rest of your question, yes, when you take your foot off the pedal, it will stop, because the T/O bearing stops touching the fingers on the pressure plate.
Sorry about the long-winded replies, but I can't answer quickly for some reason! LOL! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sneaky.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='issed:'>
Take care of that clutch SOON, and good luck! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

[DuffMan]

What i dont understand is what exactly does a t/o bearing do and how does it fail to do that. I know that it pushes on the pressure plate, but is it spinning with the transmission shaft or something. It just looks like a metal ring to me.

[HippoSleek]

Much appreciated!

Now it looks like I've got a race on my hands b/n the clutch going and getting a swap done. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/dozingoff.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> &nbsp;On your mark...

Mark
-who hopes he doesn't get to take ugly pictures of his own!

[v8killer]

Nope, nope, nope. The throwout bearing spins WITH the clutch when you push your clutch in. The clutch is connected to the flywhel, and spins with the motor. So that your clutch isn't completely shredded as soon as you push you clutch in, it carries a throwout bearing on the clutch fork (the part that actually moves in as you push the clutch in) and THAT'S what makes contact with the fingers on the pressure plate when it goes in. So, the T/O bearing gets pretty beaten as you run the car, and sooner or later, the bearing has had enough, and it begins to make noise. Most times you can have a noisy T/O bearing for quite some time without worrying about it coming apart, but sooner or later, it will bind and start taking fingers out...and that's bad. Yikes! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

Sorry so long- class over... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>