LanceS13 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

black0ut · 03-10-2002, 10:39 AM

Lance-

Didn't mean to single you out, but you're the only one I know off of the top of my head that has experience with the Pro-Kits and the S13. I was initially wanting to get Sportlines, but I am interested in doing a little auto-x, and I've heard the drop would be too much. So, I was looking into the Pro-Kits, but I've heard some pretty bad things about them and the S13. How was your experience? What all was involved? Thanks!!

gschroeder78 · 03-10-2002, 11:20 AM

I know I'm not Lance but I have prokits on my S13 and so far think they are great. I haven't done any autoX but I do drive pretty hard and have noticed a lot better handeling on turns. The ride is rougher but nothing terrible and it did noticably lower the car. Not dropped or too racey but it looks good. Don't know much else I can say to help but hopefully Lance knows more.

geeaj · 03-10-2002, 11:31 AM

I have prokits + kyb agx. Lowers the car about 1inch all around initially, once the springs set, it drops maybe another quarter inch.

The spring rates on these springs are perfect, in my own opinion, for a daily driver that does autocross or weekend duty. Keep in mind that this is with the agx, or any shock that has adjustable damping. The agx match very well with the pro kits.

The ride is firm, but not kidney jarring. While your at it make sure you do your shocks/struts and replace anything that is not up to spec. T/C bushings...tie rods ends...are all easy to replace since you have the hub removed anyways.

Good luck.

black0ut · 03-10-2002, 11:48 AM

Thanks for the input guys. I was hoping for multiple opinions, Lance was just the only one I knew of off the top of my head. I will be going with either the AGX or the GAB Super R's. Any experience with those, anyone? Thanks!!

camppain · 03-10-2002, 11:55 AM

pics pics pics!

i wanna see so i can compare and bitch at eibach.

you guys know about my testicle difficulties with them as far as the front not dropping

but handleing is alot better. im running agx's and prokits on my s13

geeaj · 03-10-2002, 12:05 PM

I'll have some pics soon. Sorry about your testicle troubles; I hope it doesn't drive you "nutz"  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'>

But maybe, we can pool together and lodge a group complaint against eibach regarding the drop. Overall I am happy with the performance and "stealthness" of the springs/shocks. The drop is okay, I would of rather have had 1.5+ inch then 1 inch. But I'll live.

geeaj · 03-10-2002, 12:06 PM

Nice clean coupe by the way Campaign. I have an s13 coupe as well. What mods you got on it?

gschroeder78 · 03-10-2002, 12:26 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (camppain @ Mar. 10 2002,11:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">pics pics pics!

i wanna see so i can compare and bitch at eibach.

you guys know about my testicle difficulties with them as far as the front not dropping

but handleing is alot better. im running agx's and prokits on my s13</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I've got some pics as well but I still need to use the rest of my roll. I've been looking closely but it doesn't seem like I had your same problem. Agree that if a bunch of people chime in that you had a faulty set, maybe they'd send you some new ones.

MorganS13 · 03-10-2002, 01:15 PM

yea i'm still workin on finshing that half roll that has my car on it, haha.  i think its been about a month now... as soon as i get some chick to pose for me i'll get them developed and scanned  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'>

HippoSleek · 03-10-2002, 01:28 PM

ha ha - I saw Lance's car today (he's up here in DC visiting and checking out some turbos  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>   I don't know if he'll check the board anytime soon - he's heading back south on Tues.

I see what you guys mean about the front not droping as much  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'>   But it didn't look too bad at all.

As for the AGX vs. GAB... I know for certain other cars (hondas), the same company manufactures the shocks (they look identical - right down to the knobs).  There is also a LOT of speculation that the rates are almost identical.  I'm not sure if this is true for the 240 - but I'm waiting until they come out of the s14 to check it out!

*LanceS13* · 03-10-2002, 01:42 PM

Pretty much what I would say has already been said.
They're good springs...not too stiff, not too soft.  I wouldn't put them on an all out race car, but they should be perfect for the daily driver/weekend racer.  If you like really stiff suspension, get something else...if you like your kidneys, they're a good choice.
As far as how much the drop is, the front could've used another half inch or so...but it's not near as bad as camppain's case.  The rear is perfect.  I have pics back home, but I'm still in D.C...I'll post them next weekend if nobody beats me to it.

black0ut · 03-10-2002, 04:38 PM

What would you recommend for all out race, then? :-) I thought Eibach were supposed to be some of the best. As for the GAB Super R's, Hippo, Don Nimi was saying that they have practically no fade on long courses and that the first setting on them is as stiff as the eighth setting on the AGX's.

gschroeder78 · 03-10-2002, 04:40 PM

For all out race, why wouldn't you just go with a full coilover system? Never tried them so I couldn't recommend but that seems like a logical route to go.

camppain · 03-10-2002, 05:08 PM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LanceS13 @ Mar. 10 2002,02:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As far as how much the drop is, the front could've used another half inch or so...but it's not near as bad as camppain's case. The rear is perfect. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> now im going nuts <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

@#$$%#$^%$&^%#**)()_^*#$%! eibach im givin em 2 more weeks to send the replacement springs they said where outta stock such b.s.

thanks for makin me feel worse about my eibach lift kit lance <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sneaky.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

issed:'> j/p
my current mods to my car are eibach lift kits, agx's, whiteline rear subframe bushings, rims, working hud, 300zxbrakes that went in and came right off due to rim offset <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'> pdm sway bar bushings (its a bitch for the rear so i just left mine off till i figure out how to put em on) , control arm bushings and thats bout it. im bushing'ed out i went for suspension and brakes since i am going sr later

HippoSleek · 03-11-2002, 07:57 AM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (black0ut @ Mar. 09 2002,5:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What would you recommend for all out race, then? :-) I thought Eibach were supposed to be some of the best. As for the GAB Super R's, Hippo, Don Nimi was saying that they have practically no fade on long courses and that the first setting on them is as stiff as the eighth setting on the AGX's.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
All out race?  On a budget - Ground Controls w/ good shocks.  Unlimited budget Apexi N1 coilovers (and a shop that can rebuild them or a spare set).

I'd maybe buy that Super R's are as soft as the AGX's are stiff - they are a race spring application.  As for the basic GABs, I think the rates are really close.  I know people running 400 lbs spring rates w/ AGXs w/ no problems.  That's enough for a street car/track toy.  For the record, I know a LOT of people who track/race AGXs who've never complained about fade.  What I'm saying is that I agree w/ what Don said, but in my experience and stories from others, AGXs are plenty for the average driver.

black0ut · 03-11-2002, 01:53 PM

Just wanted to say thanks for all of the input. I look forward to seeing some pics, Lance :-) Thanks everyone!

*LanceS13* · 03-22-2002, 01:31 AM

Sorry it took so long.
before:

after:

You can see how little they lower the car.
Honestly, the longer I have them, the less satisfied I am with them.  I want lower and stiffer.  But they'll do for now.

tnord · 03-22-2002, 08:34 AM

that really sucks for you S13 guys. i have them on my 98 and they are great. you've tried talking to eibach iirc right lance? if i were you i'd just say, "hey eibach, you're prokits didn't do the job, how about sending me a free set of sportlines and we'll call it even." what do you got to lose?

*LanceS13* · 03-22-2002, 08:51 AM

Nah, that was camppain that had the really crappy ones.  (BTW, did you (camppain) get anywhere with your situation?)
But I doubt I'd get very far b/c they did lower the car about an inch and they perform pretty good--perfect weekend racer/daily driver spring rate...they just don't look that great. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

HippoSleek · 03-22-2002, 11:02 AM

damn dude - your car's been a sky jacker since day one!  My old Civic was like that - the front was really high.  When I see s13's stock, they look lower than yours did in the "before" photo.  The other thing is that having seen your car, it doesn't look that bad in person... those pictures though!  Jeez - looks like your ready for rally.

Out of curiosity is that a factory size wheel/tire combo or did you go on size smaller on the sidewall height?

*LanceS13* · 03-22-2002, 11:14 AM

Yeah I know.  I've seen stock S13's that sit lower than mine does now.  I think Matt's S13 coupe did.  I don't know why.

The stockers are 195/60/15's and the new ones are 225/45/16's, which have a negligably smaller radius (~1/10").

black0ut · 03-22-2002, 11:24 AM

Lance -

You're right, it doesn't look much lower  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

Ah well, I am really after the performance anyway, and mine looks lower already that yours lowered  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='

'>  Just kidding, but thanks for posting the pics!!

Nathan

03-10-2002, 10:39 AM	#1
black0ut Leaky Injector Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 136 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Lance- Didn't mean to single you out, but you're the only one I know off of the top of my head that has experience with the Pro-Kits and the S13. I was initially wanting to get Sportlines, but I am interested in doing a little auto-x, and I've heard the drop would be too much. So, I was looking into the Pro-Kits, but I've heard some pretty bad things about them and the S13. How was your experience? What all was involved? Thanks!! __________________ ...contact me...

03-10-2002, 11:20 AM	#2
gschroeder78 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Westminster, CO Age: 46 Posts: 507 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I know I'm not Lance but I have prokits on my S13 and so far think they are great. I haven't done any autoX but I do drive pretty hard and have noticed a lot better handeling on turns. The ride is rougher but nothing terrible and it did noticably lower the car. Not dropped or too racey but it looks good. Don't know much else I can say to help but hopefully Lance knows more. __________________ 1989 240SX Coupe -Eibach Prokit Springs -KYB AGX Struts -Apex-i N1 Dual Exhaust Westminster, CO

03-10-2002, 11:31 AM	#3
geeaj Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 357 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I have prokits + kyb agx. Lowers the car about 1inch all around initially, once the springs set, it drops maybe another quarter inch. The spring rates on these springs are perfect, in my own opinion, for a daily driver that does autocross or weekend duty. Keep in mind that this is with the agx, or any shock that has adjustable damping. The agx match very well with the pro kits. The ride is firm, but not kidney jarring. While your at it make sure you do your shocks/struts and replace anything that is not up to spec. T/C bushings...tie rods ends...are all easy to replace since you have the hub removed anyways. Good luck. __________________ Beware the fury of a silent man, be more cautious of his silent farts....

03-10-2002, 11:48 AM	#4
black0ut Leaky Injector Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 136 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Thanks for the input guys. I was hoping for multiple opinions, Lance was just the only one I knew of off the top of my head. I will be going with either the AGX or the GAB Super R's. Any experience with those, anyone? Thanks!! __________________ ...contact me...

03-10-2002, 11:55 AM	#5
camppain Will never get banned... Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego CA Age: 45 Posts: 1,510 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	pics pics pics! i wanna see so i can compare and bitch at eibach. you guys know about my testicle difficulties with them as far as the front not dropping but handleing is alot better. im running agx's and prokits on my s13 __________________ -=-99 Sentra SE 5 speed-=- -=-95 240 SE 5 speed-=-

03-10-2002, 12:05 PM	#6
geeaj Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 357 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I'll have some pics soon. Sorry about your testicle troubles; I hope it doesn't drive you "nutz"  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> But maybe, we can pool together and lodge a group complaint against eibach regarding the drop. Overall I am happy with the performance and "stealthness" of the springs/shocks. The drop is okay, I would of rather have had 1.5+ inch then 1 inch. But I'll live. __________________ Beware the fury of a silent man, be more cautious of his silent farts....

03-10-2002, 12:06 PM	#7
geeaj Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 357 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Nice clean coupe by the way Campaign. I have an s13 coupe as well. What mods you got on it? __________________ Beware the fury of a silent man, be more cautious of his silent farts....

03-10-2002, 12:26 PM	#8
gschroeder78 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Westminster, CO Age: 46 Posts: 507 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (camppain @ Mar. 10 2002,11:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">pics pics pics! i wanna see so i can compare and bitch at eibach. you guys know about my testicle difficulties with them as far as the front not dropping but handleing is alot better. im running agx's and prokits on my s13</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> I've got some pics as well but I still need to use the rest of my roll. I've been looking closely but it doesn't seem like I had your same problem. Agree that if a bunch of people chime in that you had a faulty set, maybe they'd send you some new ones. __________________ 1989 240SX Coupe -Eibach Prokit Springs -KYB AGX Struts -Apex-i N1 Dual Exhaust Westminster, CO

03-10-2002, 01:15 PM	#9
MorganS13 Zilvia Addict Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 707 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	yea i'm still workin on finshing that half roll that has my car on it, haha.  i think its been about a month now... as soon as i get some chick to pose for me i'll get them developed and scanned  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

03-10-2002, 01:28 PM	#10
HippoSleek Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: elsewhere Posts: 2,081 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	ha ha - I saw Lance's car today (he's up here in DC visiting and checking out some turbos  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>   I don't know if he'll check the board anytime soon - he's heading back south on Tues. I see what you guys mean about the front not droping as much  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>   But it didn't look too bad at all. As for the AGX vs. GAB... I know for certain other cars (hondas), the same company manufactures the shocks (they look identical - right down to the knobs).  There is also a LOT of speculation that the rates are almost identical.  I'm not sure if this is true for the 240 - but I'm waiting until they come out of the s14 to check it out!

03-10-2002, 01:42 PM	#11
LanceS13 AutoX Junkie Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: MS Age: 43 Posts: 2,044 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Pretty much what I would say has already been said. They're good springs...not too stiff, not too soft.  I wouldn't put them on an all out race car, but they should be perfect for the daily driver/weekend racer.  If you like really stiff suspension, get something else...if you like your kidneys, they're a good choice. As far as how much the drop is, the front could've used another half inch or so...but it's not near as bad as camppain's case.  The rear is perfect.  I have pics back home, but I'm still in D.C...I'll post them next weekend if nobody beats me to it. __________________ 1992 240SX Fastback #47 DSP MS SCCA RX-7 ITS Project FOR SALE

03-10-2002, 04:38 PM	#12
black0ut Leaky Injector Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 136 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	What would you recommend for all out race, then? :-) I thought Eibach were supposed to be some of the best. As for the GAB Super R's, Hippo, Don Nimi was saying that they have practically no fade on long courses and that the first setting on them is as stiff as the eighth setting on the AGX's. __________________ ...contact me...

03-10-2002, 04:40 PM	#13
gschroeder78 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Westminster, CO Age: 46 Posts: 507 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	For all out race, why wouldn't you just go with a full coilover system? Never tried them so I couldn't recommend but that seems like a logical route to go. __________________ 1989 240SX Coupe -Eibach Prokit Springs -KYB AGX Struts -Apex-i N1 Dual Exhaust Westminster, CO

03-10-2002, 05:08 PM	#14
camppain Will never get banned... Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego CA Age: 45 Posts: 1,510 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LanceS13 @ Mar. 10 2002,02:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As far as how much the drop is, the front could've used another half inch or so...but it's not near as bad as camppain's case. The rear is perfect. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> now im going nuts <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> @#$$%#$^%$&^%#*)()_^#$%! eibach im givin em 2 more weeks to send the replacement springs they said where outta stock such b.s. thanks for makin me feel worse about my eibach lift kit lance <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sneaky.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='issed:'> j/p my current mods to my car are eibach lift kits, agx's, whiteline rear subframe bushings, rims, working hud, 300zxbrakes that went in and came right off due to rim offset <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> pdm sway bar bushings (its a bitch for the rear so i just left mine off till i figure out how to put em on) , control arm bushings and thats bout it. im bushing'ed out i went for suspension and brakes since i am going sr later __________________ -=-99 Sentra SE 5 speed-=- -=-95 240 SE 5 speed-=-

03-11-2002, 07:57 AM	#15
HippoSleek Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: elsewhere Posts: 2,081 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (black0ut @ Mar. 09 2002,5:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What would you recommend for all out race, then? :-) I thought Eibach were supposed to be some of the best. As for the GAB Super R's, Hippo, Don Nimi was saying that they have practically no fade on long courses and that the first setting on them is as stiff as the eighth setting on the AGX's.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> All out race?  On a budget - Ground Controls w/ good shocks.  Unlimited budget Apexi N1 coilovers (and a shop that can rebuild them or a spare set). I'd maybe buy that Super R's are as soft as the AGX's are stiff - they are a race spring application.  As for the basic GABs, I think the rates are really close.  I know people running 400 lbs spring rates w/ AGXs w/ no problems.  That's enough for a street car/track toy.  For the record, I know a LOT of people who track/race AGXs who've never complained about fade.  What I'm saying is that I agree w/ what Don said, but in my experience and stories from others, AGXs are plenty for the average driver.

03-11-2002, 01:53 PM	#16
black0ut Leaky Injector Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 136 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Just wanted to say thanks for all of the input. I look forward to seeing some pics, Lance :-) Thanks everyone! __________________ ...contact me...

03-22-2002, 01:31 AM	#17
LanceS13 AutoX Junkie Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: MS Age: 43 Posts: 2,044 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Sorry it took so long. before: after: You can see how little they lower the car. Honestly, the longer I have them, the less satisfied I am with them.  I want lower and stiffer.  But they'll do for now. __________________ 1992 240SX Fastback #47 DSP MS SCCA RX-7 ITS Project FOR SALE

03-22-2002, 08:34 AM	#18
tnord Nissanaholic! Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,975 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	that really sucks for you S13 guys. i have them on my 98 and they are great. you've tried talking to eibach iirc right lance? if i were you i'd just say, "hey eibach, you're prokits didn't do the job, how about sending me a free set of sportlines and we'll call it even." what do you got to lose?

03-22-2002, 08:51 AM	#19
LanceS13 AutoX Junkie Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: MS Age: 43 Posts: 2,044 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Nah, that was camppain that had the really crappy ones.  (BTW, did you (camppain) get anywhere with your situation?) But I doubt I'd get very far b/c they did lower the car about an inch and they perform pretty good--perfect weekend racer/daily driver spring rate...they just don't look that great. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> __________________ 1992 240SX Fastback #47 DSP MS SCCA RX-7 ITS Project FOR SALE

03-22-2002, 11:02 AM	#20
HippoSleek Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: elsewhere Posts: 2,081 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	damn dude - your car's been a sky jacker since day one!  My old Civic was like that - the front was really high.  When I see s13's stock, they look lower than yours did in the "before" photo.  The other thing is that having seen your car, it doesn't look that bad in person... those pictures though!  Jeez - looks like your ready for rally. Out of curiosity is that a factory size wheel/tire combo or did you go on size smaller on the sidewall height?

03-22-2002, 11:14 AM	#21
LanceS13 AutoX Junkie Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: MS Age: 43 Posts: 2,044 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Yeah I know.  I've seen stock S13's that sit lower than mine does now.  I think Matt's S13 coupe did.  I don't know why. The stockers are 195/60/15's and the new ones are 225/45/16's, which have a negligably smaller radius (~1/10"). __________________ 1992 240SX Fastback #47 DSP MS SCCA RX-7 ITS Project FOR SALE

03-22-2002, 11:24 AM	#22
black0ut Leaky Injector Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 136 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Lance - You're right, it doesn't look much lower  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> Ah well, I am really after the performance anyway, and mine looks lower already that yours lowered  <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>  Just kidding, but thanks for posting the pics!! Nathan __________________ ...contact me...