Blown Headgasket or Blown Turbo?

[mehsilvia]

Alright, so here it goes.
It was Track day this past Saturday, stated to be apx 120degrees on track, 4th session of the day, i start loosing power on my 4th lap.

Symptoms:
Still could drive, but no heavy throttle response. NO turbo spool, NO sound from the blowoff valve whatsoever. Drove off track, came into the pits, and as soon as i left the track, white smoke from the exhaust. When i start it up, there is immediately white smoke and a strange metal/rattle/grind that tends to build up then go away, build up then go away as it idles. Just lovely.

I have not had much time to work on it, ive just started with pulling the intercooler piping and intake. The intercooler piping was soaked in oil as was the blowoff valve. Oil on both sides of the Intercooler. Id say apx a Quart worth in the intercooler system (heavy on the hot side).

I wanna say blown turbo just based on what ive seen so far. Others indicate possible headgasket due to white smoke, however im running Water Wetter/water mixture and not coolant. (Though i did not drain the block of coolant, just the remainder of the system and radiator). I just dunno.

Plans:
Pull the turbo, inspect all lines, shaft play, etc . . .
Remove intercooler and of course clean everything out.
Pull oil pan and check for metal and capaccino coolant mix (thanks Mr Samurai)

Basic setup info:
Stock turbo, Intake manifold, Injectors and MAF
Greddy intercooler & oil pan
(most)Coolant drained and Waterwetter/Water mixture


Suggestions or comments anyone?


**UPDATE**

Found the answer = Blown Turbo!



Talk about shaft play, side to side, up and down, left and right, oh . . . id say about 1/4"

Cleaned out the intercooler and piping, inspected the exhaust mani, coolant lines, oil lines, etc . . . no other issues found. Drained coolant and oil, pulled valve cover . . .no issues found.

Gonna now pull the intake mani and make sure its all cleaned out. There was oil surounding the TB so im sure the intake plenum is gonna need cleaning out.

[steve shadows]

so whats the verdict?

need help with either rebuilt im your guy.

[mehsilvia]

Im convinced its the turbo.
My thoughts:
Metal friction noise = the shaft/spool grinding, considering it builds and goes away.
White smoke = coolant/water leaking and burning in the turbo, crack'd case most likely?
Excessive oil in Intercooler = gotta be turbo leak or crack once again. No catch can under a 30gal would have helped or even explained the Hot & Cold side oil saturation.

Im gonna pull it all one of these nights and try to reach a final verdict. Simple checking the dipstick, oil cap, and oil soaked intercooler didnt result in finding any chocolate milky oil. So i doubt its headgasket.

Def let me know of any help you can provide regarding rebuilds. Thanks!

[steve shadows]

the funny thing about the oil in IC thing, is that people and shady shops always suggest this as the problem or symptom of bad turbo but you have to remeber that on the stock intake with the swap done properly the crank vent after vlave cover t-redump comes back into the intake pipe and under heavier than normal load you can suck poop loads of oil into the turbo itself then through the hot pipe where it pools in the IC because of gravity and not crazy gangsta cfm compressor being used.

not sure if this is your issue though.

in other news ive never seen a t28/25 or crack and let coolant into the exaust. Were your afr's shady? High heat...

Oil burning into the exaust happens all the time on Sr turbos with bad seals.

[eastcoastS14]

what does your oil look like on the dipstick...isnt oil with a milky color usually a blown HG?

[MomentumGT]

Originally Posted by mehsilvia

Im gonna pull it all one of these nights and try to reach a final verdict. Simple checking the dipstick, oil cap, and oil soaked intercooler didnt result in finding any chocolate milky oil. So i doubt its headgasket.

Def let me know of any help you can provide regarding rebuilds. Thanks!

Do a compression test or take the plugs out and connect an adapter to a compressed air hose and have the compressed air blow into each cylinder one at a time. While doing this have your radiator cap off and see if any air bubbles come out of the radiator. If you have bubbles and over flow the HG failure will be around the vicinity of that particular cylinder you're blowing air through.

-Jon

[bo2o]

dont forget that test is called a leak down test with compressed air.
and you have to have each cylinder at tdc.
dont remember but i think you want it to be warm.

tdc then 180 of a turn, then 90, and 90 degrees of a turn

correct me if im wrong guys.

[MomentumGT]

Originally Posted by bo2o

dont forget that test is called a leak down test with compressed air.

Thats what its called had it on the tip of my tongue but couldn't spit it out.

-Jon

[hellllo]

alot of people get confused, i thought it was white coming out from my exhaust but if you see it at night you will know the true color, it was blue, usually oil hangs in the air and water just disappates (sp?). quick compression test and might as well leak down too.

oil in ic piping and metal grind gave it away.

but its not hard to take out your intake and hotpipe and just look at your turbo =)

[mehsilvia]

Sounds like a Compression and possible Leak-down is gonna need to be added to my list to do. On top of the obvious turbo inspection.

Thanks alot all, youve been a great help.

[mehsilvia]

Updated the first post.

[GSXRJJordan]

Glad you got it sorted out ~ to everyone reading this post down the line, like Steve said, oil in the intercooler is not always a bad turbo ~ might just be that you're seeing the need for a catch can on there.

And yes, Steve is one of the best guys to go to for anything turbo/SR related.

So meh, when's the car gonna be track ready again?

[MomentumGT]

Go to hear it wasn't anything major...should be up and running by next event at the latest . GL.

-Jon

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread, but can someone explain why the oil catch can is needed in dumb terms for me?

Its just trying to understand because I tried starting up my SR20det after I swapped it and oil was coming out of the turbo into my intercooler piping and onto the floor. I consider that a lot when I see a puddle on the ground.

I was thinking I needed a new turbo or new seals for the turbo I have, but if this is possibly not the problem, then I'm all ears.

Thanks

[GSX Running]

its a blown turbo, or turbo seals

[uthemofo]

blown muda fizzuckin turbo...happened to my friend....he actually blew 3 turbos....just bad luck for him though. but yea new turbo, problems go away.

[Mr. Samurai]

check if any chunks are missing on the fan or the shaft of the turbo, depending on the clearances the metal pieces can lodge into the valves leaving it floating and smacking into the piston, I've see this before, and can happen when you don't clean out the pipes well enough. its also going to be impossible to get all the oil out of the hot pipes and exhaust so expect the smoking for a while until its all burned off.. just make sure the smoke doesn't get dense. glad it wasn't the motor. everyone at the track went "awwwwww damn" when we saw you coming out the track smoking... Hope to see you in the next one...

[Mr. Samurai]

Originally Posted by 2plus4plus0eq6

Sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread, but can someone explain why the oil catch can is needed in dumb terms for me?

Its just trying to understand because I tried starting up my SR20det after I swapped it and oil was coming out of the turbo into my intercooler piping and onto the floor. I consider that a lot when I see a puddle on the ground.

I was thinking I needed a new turbo or new seals for the turbo I have, but if this is possibly not the problem, then I'm all ears.

Thanks

depending on how its mounted it can be used for several things... in my car and the cars i've worked on we use it for Crankcase Evacuation, we use it to relieve excessive crankcase pressure, which can lead to excessive piston ring wear and blow by, some even remove the stock pcv and replace it a catch can to reduce the amount of oil that enters the intake hence contaminating the intake air charge and reducing the octane. I've even seen some people do it cause it's cool and it's just something to do...

one way you can ghetto test it is to swap it for a similar turbo and run it for a few days as you did with the old one (not balls out tho) if you still leak then its not the turbo (unless you're not sure about that one either), make sure the oil lines are installed properly and not just running down the pipe and gathering at the lowest spot and dripping on the floor....

[Silverbullet]

Originally Posted by mehsilvia

Talk about shaft play, side to side, up and down, left and right, oh . . . id say about 1/4"

That is A LOT of shaft movement. Take that into consideration on your diagnose.

[mehsilvia]

Originally Posted by Mr. Samurai

check if any chunks are missing on the fan or the shaft of the turbo, depending on the clearances the metal pieces can lodge into the valves leaving it floating and smacking into the piston, I've see this before, and can happen when you don't clean out the pipes well enough. its also going to be impossible to get all the oil out of the hot pipes and exhaust so expect the smoking for a while until its all burned off.. just make sure the smoke doesn't get dense. glad it wasn't the motor. everyone at the track went "awwwwww damn" when we saw you coming out the track smoking... Hope to see you in the next one...

LOL, i could see the looks of sadness as i pulled off. With my helmet on, you couldnt see or hear me going "fuck, fuck, fuck"

There doesnt seem to be any pieces or chips off the blades themselves. Ive completely drained the intercooler, piping & BOV but im sure there is still gonna be some in the IM thats gonna have to burn off.

My plan is to simply purchase another used T28 to get her up and running, and will most likely send this one off for a rebuild in the near future.

Im just relieved its not the motor.

[khoadogg]

let me know where you can get taht t28 rebuilt... i have one in need of rebuild too