New Garrett GTX2867r

[di-devol]

Originally Posted by huffandpuff00

i dont think so, wouldn't be enough room for both wastegates. one is a tight fit.

I think he meant running only 1 wastegate, cutting a hole there with a divided housing opening both passages. You know?

[ForeignMuscle]

Why would you run twin scroll on a t2 turbo?

The thing already spools at damn near idle. It's a good idea, but it would be way over thought and not worth any of the work that would go into it.

If your going twin scroll step up to big boy turbos and go top mount.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

That is exactly what happened. He wanted to demonstrate his new brake setup. I said "meh. Not impressed by braking power, and it seems you are locking the front easily". His answer was "ok, i will do it again, but look at the speedo this time".

In fact, he just accelerated to around 160mph like it was nothing, and then the brakes got the car back to 30 in what was a very very very short length of road. But the way the power was delivered felt like it was way slower.

This is a very efficient setup, for sure ... but it is no fun

That's funny that he was tricked haha. I do hear yea though, it doesn't have the wait for it, whip your head back 35r feel...which I do enjoy too

Originally Posted by Slide~or~die

Question: Can you run a twin scroll manifold with this EWG set up? (GTX2867)

My reason for asking is because i dont see why this wouldnt work, but im not an expert.

Not at all, 2 reasons namely

1. the T2 turbine housings are not twin scroll. So while you could run a twin scroll manifold, it's really not proper without a TS turbine housing.

2. Even if it was, to cut such large holes in the turbine housing was undoubtedly fatigue it. Not to mention you'd never fit (well, about 99% sure) two gates in that area in a nice way.

Originally Posted by ForeignMuscle

Why would you run twin scroll on a t2 turbo?

The thing already spools at damn near idle. It's a good idea, but it would be way over thought and not worth any of the work that would go into it.

If your going twin scroll step up to big boy turbos and go top mount.

100% agree.

[jpost]

why didnt u go topmount?

[Slide~or~die]

@Codyace

What i was really thinking about was running a T3 Turbine (Non-TS) housing with the EWG (1) Mounted like in the picture shown on a TS Manifold.

Now from what you said above i understand running a TS manifold with out a TS turbine housing isnt proper, but are there no added advantages in running a TS Manifold on a non-TS Turbine housing? In terms of spool(being the only advantage i would assume there'd be).

My though is getting an added bonus from a TS manifold (If any w/o TS Turbine Housing) and bypassing the need to run 2 EWGs by Mounting 1 on the Turbine housing as shown in earlier post. (so saving money on EWG's while decreasing spool up time)

Set-up would be top mount. Again im not an expert just thinking of something wild for my next set-up, obviously i want it to be effective this isnt for looks.(No baby shit here)


Motor is a RB25Neo.

[Seraphim38]

for your information, generally if you don't run a twin scroll manifold and twin scroll housing together, you don't get the real benefits from going TS.

A twin scroll manifold will better than a single scroll in principle as exhaust gas pulses won't run in an opposing nature, but going twin scroll does restrict the flange airflow and reduces turbine housing volume. You just have to take that into account when you are specifying a turbo system for a given application. Anyway, in principle, running a twin scroll manifold with a single scroll turbine housing may produce better results than single/single, but my guess is that in the real world the observed difference would be minimal.

Generally when you run a twin scroll setup you want to have a wastegate for each side; otherwise you have to run a single wastegate that is tied to each side and it will enable the pressure to dissipate from each side through the WG collector.

In practice, a twin scroll setup can enable you to spool faster.

The best setup, money no object, is a twin scroll manifold with dual wastegates and a twin scroll turbine housing. The manifold and dual wastegates are where the expense is: the turbine housings are the same price whether dual or single scroll.

Most people compromise and end up single scroll. Take the time to make sure that you have the right size AR for your desired results though regardless of whether you go single or twin scroll. That's a really important part.

[Slide~or~die]

^^ Thanks. Makes sense. Pure curiosity was the drive for the question. I dont half ass things and running a TS mani with non TS Turbo seems like a half ass move anyhow.

But, now you have peaked my interest on another subject still turbo related is AR sizing. How do you do this properly?

My limited understanding is Smaller AR will = quicker spool but then again its based on set up and motor so whats the deal on this?

JW ive researched this topic and same with the TS/non TS deal ALOT. Unfortunately i dont get as great of an understanding from said research as i do from you all with the knowledge/experience, but feel free to tell me to JFGI. (Just fu**ing Google it)


Side Note: Ive always left turbo sizing to a friend/Tunner but id like to make my own informed choice of turbo this time round with my RB25 build.

[ForeignMuscle]

The whole idea of a twin scroll manifold with the ewg housing and one wastegate, etc. is no good.

First off, I have never seen one twin scroll manifold that didn't already have a provision for a wastegate so using the ewg housing would make zero sense.

Second, I could be wrong, but I don't think they make the ewg housing in t3.

Third, there are plenty of twin scroll manifolds that have both wastegate reliefs converge so that you only need to use one wastegate.

Using a twin scroll mani with a regular housing is a no go. Absolutely no gain is going to come from that.

As far as AR's you are right about the smaller it is the quicker the spool but top end falls off sooner.

For your RB25 you are most likely going to want a .63 housing on most medium sized turbos. You obviously want the quicker spool so I would pick a .63 housing on a t3 Precision 6266. You would be at full boost (if we say full boost is 20psi) around 4k rpm and you have more top end than you could use. That turbo is rated for 680whp I believe and it's billet. If your really worried about spool then go for the 5858. I use it on my 2 liter sr and it spools just as quick as my 2871 did and it is rated for up to 580whp so it has plenty of top end.

The gtx28 is just too small of a turbo for the rb25 in my opinion. You can rev 8500 rpm with that motor bone stock. Any gt28 sized turbo is just out of breath when it's spinning that high.

[gotta240]

Originally Posted by Slide~or~die

.

Is doing this to a stock .64 (on a gtx) turbo a bad idea? I have a quality turbo manifold that I want to keep, but just got a new GTX turbo and a TIAL EWG to go with it. I DO NOT want to go with the stock manifold set-up(YET) but Im also not looking forward to trying to modify my tubular manifold and somehow fit/plumb the EWG in. The above pic seems like a good concept but is that going to be bad for the turbo? IE: weaken housing, warp housing?

Thanks in advance.

[rbs14kouki]

Originally Posted by ForeignMuscle

The whole idea of a twin scroll manifold with the ewg housing and one wastegate, etc. is no good.

First off, I have never seen one twin scroll manifold that didn't already have a provision for a wastegate so using the ewg housing would make zero sense.

Second, I could be wrong, but I don't think they make the ewg housing in t3.

Third, there are plenty of twin scroll manifolds that have both wastegate reliefs converge so that you only need to use one wastegate.

Using a twin scroll mani with a regular housing is a no go. Absolutely no gain is going to come from that.

As far as AR's you are right about the smaller it is the quicker the spool but top end falls off sooner.

For your RB25 you are most likely going to want a .63 housing on most medium sized turbos. You obviously want the quicker spool so I would pick a .63 housing on a t3 Precision 6266. You would be at full boost (if we say full boost is 20psi) around 4k rpm and you have more top end than you could use. That turbo is rated for 680whp I believe and it's billet. If your really worried about spool then go for the 5858. I use it on my 2 liter sr and it spools just as quick as my 2871 did and it is rated for up to 580whp so it has plenty of top end.

The gtx28 is just too small of a turbo for the rb25 in my opinion. You can rev 8500 rpm with that motor bone stock. Any gt28 sized turbo is just out of breath when it's spinning that high.

FYI guys ; Fullrace makes a twin scroll mani with no ewg provision ... they do this as an option of course because of the efr turbo they sale !


from your Precision Turbo experience ... i'm looking to buy a 5858bb (sp cover , ar .63) for my sr20vet (86.5mm pistons 9:1,blablablabla)... what is your set-up ? and what rpm do you see @ full boost / 20psi //
pump gas

I know its not thread related so in pm if you want !

[Seraphim38]

Yes, Full Race makes a few iterations of manifolds for the SR20DET:
- Single scroll no wastegate T4 (Borg Warner turbos)
- Single scroll one 44mm v-band tial MVR wastegate port
- Twin scroll with 2 wastegate ports joined into a single 44mm v-band Tial MVR wastegate
- Twin scroll with dual 44mm VR wastegates

I personally have a single scroll Full Race T4 flange into a GTX3076R .64AR

foreignmuscle is correct, no, there is no such thing as an ATP T3-EWG-44 external wastegate housing.

For an RB25 I would suggest the mid size AR, like a .78 or .82 in single scroll or one size up in twin scroll. You do this because when you go to twin scroll the divider takes up space on the intake of the turbine housing and makes an .82 AR twin scroll flow more like a .64. The smaller the housing, the faster the spool up but also the more likely it will be prone to compressor surge and falling off at higher RPM. The bigger compressor housings hit boost later but make more power. On a GT3076R for example, going from a .64AR to an .82AR can give you 500 RPM later spool but 50rwhp increase in top end. Basically in crude terms you sacrifice 50rwhp+ from the mid and scoop it into the upper range. Go to the 1.06 and the same increment is likely to be seen as a decrease in midrange and increase in top end.

The Precision Turbos are great bang for the buck, but around here we haven't been able to make any last for long at all. Buy a dual ball bearing one if you are going to do it. I do think a 6262 would be a good turbo for that application. In Garrett, I would be tempted to go with an GTX3582 with an .82AR twin scroll, or a GTX3076R with an .82 AR or larger if twin scroll.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by jpost

why didnt u go topmount?

A few reasons, but most of them involving the fact thta top mount setups aren't responsive enough for the track usage my car sees and my style of driving.

To me, there is no reason for top mount if you're staying at 425 whp and below. Better spool up, good power, ease of install, stock part usage etc etc. Top mount setups (in my eyes) should (at minimum) make 485-500whp or they aren't worth the hassle or cost in my eyes, as a 400-425 whp T2 bottom mount car will out perform a 450whp top mount larger frame turbo car in every aspect this side of top speed.

Cliffs: K.I.S.S.

Originally Posted by Slide~or~die

What i was really thinking about was running a T3 Turbine (Non-TS) housing with the EWG (1) Mounted like in the picture shown on a TS Manifold.

Now from what you said above i understand running a TS manifold with out a TS turbine housing isnt proper, but are there no added advantages in running a TS Manifold on a non-TS Turbine housing? In terms of spool(being the only advantage i would assume there'd be).

My though is getting an added bonus from a TS manifold (If any w/o TS Turbine Housing) and bypassing the need to run 2 EWGs by Mounting 1 on the Turbine housing as shown in earlier post. (so saving money on EWG's while decreasing spool up time)

Set-up would be top mount. Again im not an expert just thinking of something wild for my next set-up, obviously i want it to be effective this isnt for looks.(No baby shit here)


Motor is a RB25Neo.

In the grand scheme of things, running a non-TS turbine housing on a TS manifold isn't going to ever hurt performance, however to really take advantage of a 'twin scroll' setup you should have a TS turbine housing as well, as the entire point of it is to keep pulses divided to aid in performance.

The other thing you need to consider is how much the gate needs to work on your setup. While technically you always want 'priority of flow' towards the wastegate (of which 90* to flow is not priority) for optimal performance, that is not to say that doing it that way will hurt it either (other than it could limit the effectiveness of the gate)

To me, if you're spending the bucks on a TS manifold, I'd be sure to have a TS turbine housing to take advantage of it all.

Originally Posted by Seraphim38

Anyway, in principle, running a twin scroll manifold with a single scroll turbine housing may produce better results than single/single, but my guess is that in the real world the observed difference would be minimal.

........

The best setup, money no object, is a twin scroll manifold with dual wastegates and a twin scroll turbine housing. The manifold and dual wastegates are where the expense is: the turbine housings are the same price whether dual or single scroll.

Totally agree, couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally Posted by Slide~or~die

My limited understanding is Smaller AR will = quicker spool but then again its based on set up and motor so whats the deal on this?

Small A/R can generally does reduce lag, but at the time time it can also effect power in a way that negates any advantage in spooling up to a specific boost level faster. Certainly a fine art IMO. Even on my setup I give up certain stuff...such as if I had a stock intake manifold I'd have more low end, but I'd rather have the elongated powerband from the Greddy.

Originally Posted by gotta240

Is doing this to a stock .64 (on a gtx) turbo a bad idea? I have a quality turbo manifold that I want to keep, but just got a new GTX turbo and a TIAL EWG to go with it. I DO NOT want to go with the stock manifold set-up(YET) but Im also not looking forward to trying to modify my tubular manifold and somehow fit/plumb the EWG in. The above pic seems like a good concept but is that going to be bad for the turbo? IE: weaken housing, warp housing?

Thanks in advance.

It won't hurt anything, but will require some specific fabrication to angle the gate to fit in that area. It will certainly require a 90* bend, and another v band clamp/flanges to make that work too.

Originally Posted by rbs14kouki

FYI guys ; Fullrace makes a twin scroll mani with no ewg provision ... they do this as an option of course because of the efr turbo they sale !

True, but EFR sucks :P

[huffandpuff00]

Originally Posted by codyace

It won't hurt anything, but will require some specific fabrication to angle the gate to fit in that area. It will certainly require a 90* bend, and another v band clamp/flanges to make that work too.

No need for a 90 if using a mvs. plenty of room for EWG straight onto turbine housing. ill take close up pics of fitment tomorrow, but there is even more room w/ my new housing because its less bulky. The atp t25-ewg-44 housing is huge

[codyace]

Ah def cool then! I was only basing that from the ATP housing setups. Def post pics

[ForeignMuscle]

Originally Posted by rbs14kouki

FYI guys ; Fullrace makes a twin scroll mani with no ewg provision ... they do this as an option of course because of the efr turbo they sale !


from your Precision Turbo experience ... i'm looking to buy a 5858bb (sp cover , ar .63) for my sr20vet (86.5mm pistons 9:1,blablablabla)... what is your set-up ? and what rpm do you see @ full boost / 20psi //
pump gas

I know its not thread related so in pm if you want !

You definitely need a larger turbo for your VET. The 5858 is perfect for the 2.0 det guys but the vet moves such a larger amount of air that it needs the 6266. Your 9:1 compression will help spool as well.

With the 5858 my powerband is almost identical to the 2871 I had with the .72 ex. housing. I can make 5psi at 3500 rpm. 20psi will come around 4500rpm.

As far as the Precision turbos lasting, I have seen some cars that get beaten HARD with over 30k miles running Precision journal bearing turbos. All the smack you hear is just peoples emotions and 99% what they have heard. I hear just as many people, if not more, laughing about a Garrett bb unit lasting any significant time.

There will always be problems for some, but if you take care of your engine and most definitely don't turn your ignition off while hot then you can make your turbo last.

I have a friend with a VW that has over 200k miles on a journal bearing turbo. One owner. Taken care of.

Sorry for the side track. Back to bottom mount goodness!!

I'm still waiting for someone besides myself to wind one of these gtx turbos up with e85.

Codyace's setup with e85 and a bucket of timing thrown at...

[codyace]

Originally Posted by ForeignMuscle

Codyace's setup with e85 and a bucket of timing thrown at...

If it was available and common where I am I'd be running with it

[huffandpuff00]

[Seraphim38]

why the holes in the dump tube? so you can play it like a flute? LOL

[huffandpuff00]

Ha yeah maybe I'll get a nice sound when the gate opens! Naw I just thought it looked cool, then used the press to make some holes.

[codyace]

Snug as a bug!

[gotta240]

haha. indeed. Awesome HUFFANDPUFF! Thanks for posting! I may just copy you! Any suggestions on the whole thing if you had to do it over?

Suggestions on placement/cutting/welding a flange to the housing? Anything else you can suggest? I have the .64 housing and the MVR EWG.....I'm getting closer!~

[huffandpuff00]

I wish i would of started with my present housing instead of that horrible t2t-ewg-44 .72ar one. But other wise I am extremely happy with the housing/ewg setup so far. I just traced the flange on the housing, then drilled a hole and processed widening until it was wide enough. I still have to see if this new turbine spools quicker...

As for you using a t25 .64ar housing I really dont thing it has a wide enough surface to weld the flange(mvs) flat to it, but its def possible to make it fit with some pipe and a capable welder. The MVR is a good size larger so I really dont think it will fit. You can see how wide my new housing is compared to the mvs flange.


good luck!

[Slide~or~die]

Ok, so ive come to the decision that id like to run a GTX3071 / Full Race Twin Scroll set-up. (No research done yet)

1) Do they make a divided T3 housing for the GTX3071?

2) What A/R would you all suggest? (Side?; Do mods affect decision on A/R choice?) Like: Intake manifold/forged internals. ect.....

Eninge: RB25Neo w/ Supporting Components and Hardware.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Slide~or~die

Ok, so ive come to the decision that id like to run a GTX3071 / Full Race Twin Scroll set-up. (No research done yet)

1) Do they make a divided T3 housing for the GTX3071?

2) What A/R would you all suggest? (Side?; Do mods affect decision on A/R choice?) Like: Intake manifold/forged internals. ect.....

Eninge: RB25Neo w/ Supporting Components and Hardware.

How much power are you looking for? If around 400+ I'd suggest the GTX3067 instead. It'll have better spool and transient response.

Yes they do make a divided housing for the 3071, I'd recommend a 1.06 divided T3 or T4 housing.

Here's the 3067 compressor map:



3071:

[Slide~or~die]

Beautiful response! Thanks

[Seraphim38]

Yes the GTX3067R will be more responsive, but putting a 1.06AR turbine housing on the back end of it will be going the wrong direction. Try the Garrett .82AR variant if you are looking for a responsive setup.

The Full Race manifold is top quality. (I have one). Doc Race is a qualified alternative though, FYI.

Ah, I just noticed that this is an RB25Neo. In that case the higher flow of the RB25Neo might warrant a GTX3071R. It all depends on your goals for the car.

The T4 flange is quite a bit bigger than the T3 and will support a lot more hp. I have a T4.

[K_style]

Originally Posted by huffandpuff00

Ha yeah maybe I'll get a nice sound when the gate opens! Naw I just thought it looked cool, then used the press to make some holes.

I'd like to hear how that sounds.. haha

[gotta240]

Originally Posted by huffandpuff00

I wish i would of started with my present housing instead of that horrible t2t-ewg-44 .72ar one. But other wise I am extremely happy with the housing/ewg setup so far. I just traced the flange on the housing, then drilled a hole and processed widening until it was wide enough. I still have to see if this new turbine spools quicker...

As for you using a t25 .64ar housing I really dont thing it has a wide enough surface to weld the flange(mvs) flat to it, but its def possible to make it fit with some pipe and a capable welder. The MVR is a good size larger so I really dont think it will fit. You can see how wide my new housing is good luck!

Sorry, I meant MVS (same one you have)! Please excuse my stupid questions, especially if you've already answered..... Do you think the vband housing is wider there than the 2871r stock housing?

Again, thanks for taking the time to reply.

[huffandpuff00]

Originally Posted by gotta240

Sorry, I meant MVS (same one you have)! Please excuse my stupid questions, especially if you've already answered..... Do you think the vband housing is wider there than the 2871r stock housing?

Yes I think it is to big, but then again I havent had a regular t25 housing in my possession is a long time. If i make it over to PSI tomorrow I will try to remember to see if there are any 240sx with t25 housings I can measure. Also you have to look at how the 5 bolt part of the housing will interfere w/ the flange. You would need to most likely remove the IWG arm and block plate. weld the plate to the hole and fill the removed arm's hole to seal it back up.

[Rafa-Z]

So I got this manifold but I'm worried about the clearance issues and my car is currently getting bodywork. Also I don't have the wastegate yet. I'm going to use a TIAL mvs. Do you guys think I'll need like a pipe to relocate it? BTW this is not my engine. It's the previous owner of the manifold. He never used it. I think I'll call DOC RACE tomorrow too.