Why isn't meth inj. more popular in SR20 world?

[Seraphim38]

It seems that on pump gas the SR20DET hits it's limits at between 400-450rwhp at 20psi +/-, and yet a GTX3071R or larger can do a lot more than that if turned up to 30psi.

In the subaru and mustang worlds, methanol injection is pretty common. I had it installed on a supercharged mustang cobra I had a couple years back. As long as you monitor the water/meth level and maintain the system it seems like the benefits would be there for the SR world, no?

I know that some people don't believe that meth systems are reliable and if you tune for it and then it doesn't flow, you can destroy valuable engine components.

Another option is to use unleaded race gas / pump gas mix. I used to mix race&pump with my motorcycles in the past, and didn't care as much about the race gas because I didn't have O2 sensors and a cat to destroy with leaded fuel. Has anyone had success with regularly driving with an unleaded / pump mix?

I can guess that first there are few people who build SRs to 450+rwhp levels, and of those who do it's possible that many are drifters who don't daily drive their cars.

I have a GTX3076R in transit to bolt on a full race/sleeved/solid lifter no holds barred SR. I don't really think it will be able to stick much more than 400rwhp anyway even with the 275/40/17 Nitto NT05s that are on the car, but I can't help but be curious about turning up the boost to let the GTX turbo do it's thing.

Thoughts?

[codyace]

With my JWT ECU, I actually have a selectable water injection 'tune' that I use for track days. In my case, the water map isn't setup for more power (as in the tunes are exactly the same timing/fuel wise), but as a precaution and additional safety feature for the hot mid summer track days. It's a night and day difference in regard to performance, as I've forgotten to turn it on at times (mind you I went a few years without it in general) and you can sense the car just getting warm and dare I say not as responsive.

Crank the water map on, and it's like a cool spring day, as the IAT's drop dramatically.

My setup is a bit of a hodge podge...it's a Snow Performance pump/nozzles/anti siphon selenoid, and a JWT ECU with the control for it. I use regular old windshield washer fluid (blue stuff, not the de-icer stuff)


Now with that said, mine is just there for additional safety, and not for additional power. I know some guys have tunes setup with more aggressive timing to make more HP at the same boost level, but (for a reason unknown to me) have always been skeptical of something failing...as in reality it's an overpriced produce sprayer hehe. With that said though, I'm sure I could probably even go up to 24-25 lbs with my gtx2867 (which would essentially be in that 450whp range), but I've never wanted to push it.


(On the SloppyMechanics cars, there were some significant gains through more boost/lower IAT/no detonation running a 50/50 meth mix).

[JFoxx]

I personaly went with e85, cheaper than race gas, added hp, lower engine temps, won't fry o2 sensors like leaded fuel, it seemed a lot more sensical to use then meth injection...

With that being said I have never contemplated h2o/meth injection with e85... I wonder if there is any issues with this?

[sandog711]

I had it on my built MR2 just for safety not for HP and I plan on putting it on my 240 when the time comes that I need it

[EvoVIII808]

i ran it in my evo. its actually big on the Evo side of the house also. I had the Aquamist HFS1 and never ran into any problems. Ive been thinking about doing it in my SR because of the power it gave in my evo. Run It!

[Croustibat]

1/ your power assumption is incorrect. the 400whp is more the transmission and stock engine limits than a fuel limit. Get some forgies and a strong gearbox, and that is 500whp world.

2/ You can get 600/700WHP with e85. Why bother with meth ? Simpler is better.

I know of a small ca18det that is getting a big gtx3582r turbo ... why bother with a small 3071 on a 2L engine ? If you want power, slap a bigger turbo on it

[R33E8]

E85 isn't available everywhere (there are only 3 pumps in the entire state of NJ) so I use meth.. I'm running 4 375cc/min nozzles spraying 100% meth with a Precision 6466.. But I have a KA, not an SR... I hope to run 20lb's of boost on straight 93 oct and up to 30lbs of boost with the meth.. My friend's evo who is using significantly less meth than I am runs up to 40lbs of boost on a FB Black turbo..

[jholman05]

I run meth because, while there are a few E85 Stations around I don't want to have to plan my driving around that. Also with meth, you're only using it when you need it. E85 uses significantly more fuel than gas so you're going to have to fill up more often. With my meth, I bought 5 gallons of straight methanol for $25 and 5 gallons of distilled water for $5. I only used about half of this mix the whole summer. Other than the initial setup meth seems pretty cheap to run for me so far. My one gallon tank lasts quite a while and I wouldn't say I stay out of boost any less than any other car guy.

I run the older AEM Water/Meth 1 gallon kit. Middle sized injector placed right before the throttle body on the cold pipe. I have my tune setup to run a bit more timing with the meth.

R33E8, do you have a picture of your setup?

[Seraphim38]

E85 is not available near me, so it is simple to rule out.

My old mustang used a MAF-based stage 3 Snow methanol injection kit. I had a small nozzle before the throttle body to cool intake air temps and then 2 375ml nozzles in the underside of the intake manifold for even distribution across all cylinders. I fear in doing only one prior to the TB that the meth will not distribute fully to the last cylinder (for octane increase), but I guess it isn't as much of an issue in reality as it is in my mind of scientific ideals.

Next time I will get an Aquamist setup that incorporates a 52mm flow gauge for your dash; then you can know if it is actually flowing or not. At $600 though, it ain't cheap.

My GT3076R is going to be able to do well over 500rwhp if turned up. My SR is sleeved and will take far more than that, and the clutch is the Exedy triple carbon. The rear end is a Kaaz 1.5 LSD, and the driveline is a one piece aluminum unit built for it as well. The weak link is the transmission.

[slow92]

I had thought about going the meth injection route but I live near e85. In fact, there is an e85 24 hour gas station less than 10 minutes from my house. However, if this wasn't the case I would def go with meth injection because the highest pump I can get is crappy 91. Which 91 wouldn't do squat for my built SR. I think a big thing is that most of the 240 owners are drifters and they are more concerned with relatively low power levels and more concerned with turbo responsiveness, which can be had with 91 or 93 octane pump gas.

[EvoVIII808]

If you get a chance, check out the Evo forums (Evolutionm.net) they sell those kits like hot cakes. I picked up my HFS-1 for $250.
For E85 you need to run some large injectors, and alot of people dont want to pay big money for just injectors.

[Croustibat]

You need to run large injectors for any high power application, and 1600cc injectors are maybe 10/20$ more than 800 or 1000ccs ...

Then again, i went e85 because it was half the price of regular pump gas here, i have like 5 pumps around the city, there is one near every track i go ... and if there is none, i just turn down the boost a bit and load an unleaded map in the ECU. Hasnt happened for years though.

e85 does not need that much more fuel anyway. You dont need to run as rich when WOT as you do with unleaded fuel. The real problem is having access to a pump

[newdesignz]

im running a devils own on/off kit on my sr. awesome kit install is easy and tuning it right on. just wastegate pressure on a 5862 like 13 to 16 pouns i hit 460hp its all who has the money for it

[vinnys13]

Originally Posted by slow92

I think a big thing is that most of the 240 owners are drifters and they are more concerned with relatively low power levels and more concerned with turbo responsiveness, which can be had with 91 or 93 octane pump gas.

Fully agree with this statement

I will say this i have seen water meth on ls1 swapped 240s. Just seems to be more drag race orientated.

I have wondered about an sr settup, it would be nice especially because I work at a dealership with unlimited windsheild washer fluid. Very convienent and free.

[DRFT180]

I believe the drifter community could benefit greatly from the addition on Meth/Water injection. Especially those without E85 stations near by, such as myself.

Agreeing with codyace above, meth injection could be used as a safety buffer for drifters more so then a power maker. As amatuer drifting is usually associated with high extended RPM's with relative low air flow. Meth could be used as an air charge cooling element.

I plan on using it on my KA-T setup to make power but with the main focus on being a safety factor. I'll be road racing, drifting, and autox'ing the car once done. The summers down here in Louisiana can be brutal, so I'm hoping meth injection will keep some strain off of the motor while doing 20 min lapping sessions.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by JFoxx

I personaly went with e85, cheaper than race gas, added hp, lower engine temps, won't fry o2 sensors like leaded fuel, it seemed a lot more sensical to use then meth injection...

That's only if you have it available, or if you're willing to buy a 55gallon drum to keep at home and always top your car off. I agree that would be a better way, but now you need to invest in a much larger pump, much larger fuel system, much larger injectors etc etc. I know it's part of the game, but a curious thing to consider.

Originally Posted by Croustibat

I know of a small ca18det that is getting a big gtx3582r turbo ... why bother with a small 3071 on a 2L engine ? If you want power, slap a bigger turbo on it

Who wants to wait until 5000 rpm to make power

Originally Posted by Seraphim38

I fear in doing only one prior to the TB that the meth will not distribute fully to the last cylinder (for octane increase), but I guess it isn't as much of an issue in reality as it is in my mind of scientific ideals.

Single fogger pre throttle body/post intercooler is totally acceptable and very normal. At such a fine mist it distributes relatively well so long as you have it it just before TB. Obviously direct port is the ideal way, but single fogger works fine.

[Kingtal0n]

Cody I am curious if you've ever looked at your pistons after using methanol injection after a couple events? I am curious if it helps remove the carbon from the skirts.
biggest problem I am having right now with the forged pistons and CP's recommended piston/wall clearance is carbon buildup on the skirts after a few years, it seems to contribute to cylinder wear when the pistons slap around while they are cold.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Cody I am curious if you've ever looked at your pistons after using methanol injection after a couple events? I am curious if it helps remove the carbon from the skirts.
biggest problem I am having right now with the forged pistons and CP's recommended piston/wall clearance is carbon buildup on the skirts after a few years, it seems to contribute to cylinder wear when the pistons slap around while they are cold.

I've not had my engine apart in 30,000 miles (that's the CP piston/stock rod setup), so I couldn't give any information here. I know the tops look great (boroscope) though. I did have my roomates engine apart after similar milesage due to drinking copous coolant, and the pistons and cylinder walls look brand new.

With that said, I don't think it would 'clean' the skirts much as you theoretically wouldn't want that much getting past the rings, as it would contaminate the oil. I also use bug cleaning juice though, which is like 5% alcohol, 94.5% water and .5 percent blue color haha.

[Croustibat]

Originally Posted by codyace

Who wants to wait until 5000 rpm to make power

Someone who can rev to 9000 rpm, and who found it quite boring with a gtx2867r (and it lacks power in the 8000-9000rpm range). While i initially thought the gtx2867r would be the perfect match, i have to agree with him... yes it is very efficient. It can make 1.8bar in a breeze, and it goes quite fast too but ... if he wanted efficient, he would not have bought an S13 in the first place. This one is twin scroll though (with a custom manifold), but he knows he wont have gt2560r class spool time
He is known to have savage engines in that car, and i cant wait to try that one. I think i overheard something like 2.5 bar boost

[stamps31757]

i've used a water methanol kit in my WRX. It worked great. Definately a good safety precaution to have as long as you keep an eye on the fluid level.

[Seraphim38]

OK. Research done. My preference would be the HFS4 Aquamist kit. Instead of using a MAF voltage reading (which I don't have), it uses injector duty cycle and the MAP sensor to map out injection pulses of meth/water. It's 2x to 3x the cost of the competitors, but their kits are much more simplistic.

Howerton Engineering, LLC – System Comparison

Turbo and headgasket arrive today. T4 .63AR turbine housing, turbo gaskets and other goodies are in transit. Maybe meth will have to wait, but it would be nice to install before I trailer the car for hours to the tuner.

[conrad_s13.5]

Originally Posted by codyace

With my JWT ECU, I actually have a selectable water injection 'tune' that I use for track days.

....and a JWT ECU with the control for it.

You may or may not have just blew my mind.

Details on this control to switch between 'tunes' on the JWT ECU pretty please

[BlackZenkiS14]

I run meth/water on my SR, and it's the bees knees. Car runs its ass off! I love it!

[Imarvin240]

does anyone run methanol injection with E85?

[Seraphim38]

what would be the point? I haven't ever heard of anyone running meth injection with E85. The only motivation I could think of would be to use the meth for intake temp cooling and the E85 for octane, so that you can push timing and boost.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Imarvin240

does anyone run methanol injection with E85?

Yes, I have seen people do this, but they're injecting straight methanol, not a gas station water/meth mix. It definitely allows for more boost, or at least makes up for a poor intercooling system at high boost.

Methanol definitely has a superior latent heat of evaporation versus any pump fuel.

Force's record 16G 1G talon runs no intercooler and only methanol, and the intake air temp is pegged at 300* any time the car is over 5000rpm.

Most people just don't know the benefits (or don't want to spend the money) of these kinds of things. Meth injection, twin-scoll turbos, proper cam selection, proper turbo selection, the list goes on and on. If you haven't seen the gains and you're too lazy to research, you'll remain ignorant of the possibilities. This describes 90% of people that are "into cars/racing/drifting/etc".

[Imarvin240]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Yes, I have seen people do this, but they're injecting straight methanol, not a gas station water/meth mix. It definitely allows for more boost, or at least makes up for a poor intercooling system at high boost.

Methanol definitely has a superior latent heat of evaporation versus any pump fuel.

Force's record 16G 1G talon runs no intercooler and only methanol, and the intake air temp is pegged at 300* any time the car is over 5000rpm.

Most people just don't know the benefits (or don't want to spend the money) of these kinds of things. Meth injection, twin-scoll turbos, proper cam selection, proper turbo selection, the list goes on and on. If you haven't seen the gains and you're too lazy to research, you'll remain ignorant of the possibilities. This describes 90% of people that are "into cars/racing/drifting/etc".

Thanks for that info! I'm currently setting up the car to run both meth with e85, but I couldn't find much info on running both, so thank you for that. I have a build thread, if anyone cares to take a look at it hah

[Mikester]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Most people just don't know the benefits (or don't want to spend the money) of these kinds of things. Meth injection, twin-scoll turbos, proper cam selection, proper turbo selection, the list goes on and on. If you haven't seen the gains and you're too lazy to research, you'll remain ignorant of the possibilities. This describes 90% of people that are "into cars/racing/drifting/etc".

Interesting viewpoint. I had never heard of meth injection until I got to discussing it with Kyle (BlackZenkiS14) at an event not so long ago. Did some research and was pretty much sold on the idea of it for a cheap & very effective addition- Kyle's car is an absolutely perfect example of why it's an invaluable thing for enthusiasts/weekend warriors to have. Definitely on my 'to do' list; and I'm thankful to have him on speed-dial when I do the install this winter.

As far as the other stuff goes, either I misinterpereted the intent of the statement; or maybe it was a little harsh(?) The other '90% of people that are into cars/racing/drifting etc' (myself included) live on a learning curve- Hell... come to think of it- We all do. Anyway- Some of us hear about these things and ask questions... while others choose to remain ignorant... Not because of laziness (okay in some cases yea lol); but because there is a certain sense of contentment to be enjoyed when a setup works well as-is.

Now... My sympathy dies very quickly when people SHOULD be asking questions and don't... Or go ghetto because quality and the wallet are at odds. But in general, not everybody knows... or even knows what research they should be doing. Even so, it doesn't make them any less 'into cars/drifting/racing etc...' It just puts them on a little bit steeper side of the learning curve~

Personally, I think that every average Joe who drifts or races with an SR or RB under the hood should run meth injection... 6-9 months ago I had no opinion because I was 'ignorant' lol.

Just my thoughts

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Mikester

As far as the other stuff goes, either I misinterpereted the intent of the statement; or maybe it was a little harsh(?) The other '90% of people that are into cars/racing/drifting etc' (myself included) live on a learning curve- Hell... come to think of it- We all do. Anyway- Some of us hear about these things and ask questions... while others choose to remain ignorant... Not because of laziness (okay in some cases yea lol); but because there is a certain sense of contentment to be enjoyed when a setup works well as-is.

Now... My sympathy dies very quickly when people SHOULD be asking questions and don't... Or go ghetto because quality and the wallet are at odds. But in general, not everybody knows... or even knows what research they should be doing. Even so, it doesn't make them any less 'into cars/drifting/racing etc...' It just puts them on a little bit steeper side of the learning curve~

Yes, the statement was intended to be harsh. Obviously everyone has to learn, and you're right, everyone has a different learning curve. It's just sad to see people not do research and end up with a car that doesn't perform up to it's maximum ability. Meth injection is something you can always install later, but I consistently see people making bad cam, turbo, intercooler, etc choices, simply because they did not take the time and find out what's going to work best for their setup.

[rvns14]

Question: I looked into all this before, what do you guys know about oil contamination on meth. Some guys say they only go a couple hours or a few days of driving before changing the oil.