Willwood BBK for s14's

[g00se]

you should try swapping to a better pad before you throw money at a whole new braking system.

you should also include what your current pad selection is and also what tires you are running.

are you overheating your brakes or are you locking it at the end of the drag strip

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by Boostage

What can I do to refine my current setup? So far I know I can run ducting. I recently saw under both my buddies Porsches and the have a factory brake deflector that looks a lot like the SPL one. I'm open to any recommendations on pads and fluid or whatever else you think will make my existing setup work.

VVV What he said VVV

Originally Posted by jr_ss

Motul RBF500 for starters and SS lines all around. The SPL brake deflector would also be a good item to get or fab something like it. You do not need to have a huge deflector, just something to throw more air towards the wheel. You can make the inside of the rotor run too cool with a large deflector. The factory dust shield up front should probably be removed or cut down a lot in your case, it will cause a lot of heat build up and speed up the fading process.

I wouldn't recommend the Motul fluid though. I have personally had compressibility issues with their stuff. I like the Brembo and Endless fuid, they are both designed with low compressibility in mind.

I would also recommend REAL brake ducts rather than the stupid deflectors though. Like so:

Originally Posted by jr_ss

What booster do you have? Manual or Auto?

This is important. The BEST setup for pedal feel and response that I found for the Sumitomo calipers was the Z/auto dual diaphragm booster with the 1" master. If you run the 17/16 master with the dual diaphragm booster the brakes are very touchy. With the small booster the pedal just feels too hard and unresponsive to me.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by racepar1

VVV What he said VVV



I wouldn't recommend the Motul fluid though. I have personally had compressibility issues with their stuff. I like the Brembo and Endless fuid, they are both designed with low compressibility in mind.

I would also recommend REAL brake ducts rather than the stupid deflectors though.

Tons of guys run the Motul fluid over on NRR without issues, but experience is often the best knowledge.

"Real" brake ducts are nice for a track only car, but not always necessary/needed on a "street" car. I think for a street driver car they are a bit much, you'll never get your brakes up to the temperatures to justify installing something like that. The deflectors are just a added benefit, which can still cool the inside of the rotors too much.

Originally Posted by racepar1

This is important. The BEST setup for pedal feel and response that I found for the Sumitomo calipers was the Z/auto dual diaphragm booster with the 1" master. If you run the 17/16 master with the dual diaphragm booster the brakes are very touchy. With the small booster the pedal just feels too hard and unresponsive to me.

I've had good experience with my 15/16's MC and my S14 auto booster. I've never had any desire to change my setup. Then again brake feel is solely ones perspective and preference.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

Tons of guys run the Motul fluid over on NRR without issues, but experience is often the best knowledge.

Yeah, I know LOTS of people that love the Motul stuff. BUT, I've had a bad experience with it and due to that experience I simply cannot recommend it to anyone else. Do't get me wrong, I was abusing the holy hell out of those brakes and it was RIDICULOUS hot that day. It is possible that any fluid would have had issues, but I was using the motul at the time.

"Real" brake ducts are nice for a track only car, but not always necessary/needed on a "street" car. I think for a street driver car they are a bit much, you'll never get your brakes up to the temperatures to justify installing something like that. The deflectors are just a added benefit, which can still cool the inside of the rotors too much.

I'm not really much of a believer of the "deflectors". I'm sure they do something, but I'll just stick to the ducts personally. You are right that too much cooling could actually be detrimental on a street car, but you can always block them off on the street. Really the guy is talking about running a 650hp 240 with a porky 2j under the hood around Sebring. That's a LOT of momentum to slow down and without actual brake ducts I think there will likely still be overheating issues.

I've had good experience with my 15/16's MC and my S14 auto booster. I've never had any desire to change my setup. Then again brake feel is solely ones perspective and preference.

With the 15/16 master and the dual diaphragm booster your pedal should be a little softer then my old setup. It might be a little easier to modulate. Like you said though, it's mostly preference in this discussion. Have you tried the 1" master? I LOVED mine. It seriously felt as though I could do no wrong with the brake pedal.

[Chaluska]

Originally Posted by racepar1

This is important. The BEST setup for pedal feel and response that I found for the Sumitomo calipers was the Z/auto dual diaphragm booster with the 1" master. If you run the 17/16 master with the dual diaphragm booster the brakes are very touchy. With the small booster the pedal just feels too hard and unresponsive to me.

i'm running the 17/16 MBC on an S13 auto booster with my brembo calipers, and it is retarted stopping power. very VERY VERY touchy.

[cdlong]

Originally Posted by Boostage

I have z32 rears. OK let's not use piston count. That's just me Trying to distinguish smaller vs larger calipers. 968 Porsche brakes are 4 pot and don't fade. The rotor is huge and the caliper is as big or bigger than a 6 pot wilwood.

So clearly overall size matters more than piston quantity. Now that I said this. Answer this..

Why does Wildwood have the same smaller brake system for both the 240 and Honda's but offer only the bigger one to the Honda? Is it out of necessity? Are the Honda guys not finding the smaller one adequate and need a bigger?

Define "larger". As you said, the Porsche 4 pots are huge, I'm sure you could find some small 6 pots. Thermal mass and piston count are independent, but you've already agreed to that.

The 240sx vs. Civic thing is purely based on market. There are a lot of guys that race Civics. Racers look for quality parts with cheap wear part replacement costs. 240s, on the other hand are primarily drift cars, fewer of them to begin with, and JDM fan boys would rather buy a Rotora kit than a kit that is cheaper to buy and maintain.

I still think you have an issue with either fluid or pad condition, or brake balance. The only way you should be able to fade big brakes in a single stop is if something is wrong. For reference, what speeds are we talking about at the drag strip, 120-20 mph stop? While track time will be harder on the brakes on average, you won't be slowing down as much for each corner with time to cool the brakes in between stops.

Originally Posted by nujabe

lol dude go with the 6 pistons. At this point they are trolling you. 6 pistons will help with brake fade. end of story.

Thanks for the reminder why I don't post here much anymore. We aren't trolling anyone, just stating facts. Yes, bigger brakes will help with fade, but thinking about a problem instead of throwing money at it with no guarantee of fixing it is the smart thing to do. Feel free to keep filling this forum with mindless junk. I'm out.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by Chaluska

i'm running the 17/16 MBC on an S13 auto booster with my brembo calipers, and it is retarted stopping power. very VERY VERY touchy.

That's exactly my point. If you switched to the 1" master you would have the same stopping power the pedal would just be less touchy and easier to modulate. That is good, not bad. You need to be able to modulate the pedal to brake at the limit without the help of ABS. Touchy brakes lock-up easily, which is a large concern in any driving environment.

[nujabe]

Feelings hurt lol.. Then don't post here any more. Again op car sounds like it makes to much power for the shit improvised brakes you have on the car up grade to some thing bigger simple as that.

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by nujabe

Feelings hurt lol.. Then don't post here any more. Again op car sounds like it makes to much power for the shit improvised brakes you have on the car up grade to some thing bigger simple as that.

He shouldn't be fading his brakes stopping one time from 120-20, even on his setup, that's the point. There are other issues at work here and the answer isn't to "throw bigger brakes at it". Sure as stated, they would help, but there are cheaper alternatives than putting ridiculous 6pots on a car that doesn't need it.

His car weighs at most 3500lbs with him in it. Do you think the 370Z needs six pots? How about the ridiculously heavy Mustang GT and Camaro SS, do they need them? They don't run them from the factory, I suppose the engineers that designed those cars don't know what they are doing. 6pots fix everything...

[codyace]

Originally Posted by Boostage

The reason for my inquiry is this. And bare in mind im admitting to not be a brake expert..the civic overall is lighter than a 240. but posibley more front heavy since its drivetrain is up front with the engine. Well I can tell u a 2jz 240 is waaay front heavy!

I know this sounds crazy but have you bed the pads correctly? Are you sure it is pad fade and not too aggressive of a pad on a cold rotor?

If we can run 140 out the back door on ford single piston calipers on different shitboxes from the 80's and stop before the sand, I would tend to think you've got the wrong pad compound on the car.

Originally Posted by Boostage

I have z32 rears. OK let's not use piston count. That's just me Trying to distinguish smaller vs larger calipers. 968 Porsche brakes are 4 pot and don't fade. The rotor is huge and the caliper is as big or bigger than a 6 pot wilwood.

Don't look at caliper 'size' either. Big Reds are HUGE, but the pistons are small. Not to mention they are heavy.

Originally Posted by Boostage

Why does Wildwood have the same smaller brake system for both the 240 and Honda's but offer only the bigger one to the Honda? Is it out of necessity? Are the Honda guys not finding the smaller one adequate and need a bigger?

Probably out of the fact that they can 'sell them' and that's about it. They do offer 6 piston setups (my good friend Jim has one his s14) but I can't say it's any better than the 4 piston on my car.

Originally Posted by jr_ss

He shouldn't be fading his brakes stopping one time from 120-20, even on his setup, that's the point. There are other issues at work here and the answer isn't to "throw bigger brakes at it". Sure as stated, they would help, but there are cheaper alternatives than putting ridiculous 6pots on a car that doesn't need it.

Well said. I'm willing to bet the car stops better at the drags running the most entry level pad for the caliper.