the legend of the NA KA....

[infinitexsound]

pank u might want to take that back.........

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by infinitexsound

pank u might want to take that back.........

or what?

[infinitexsound]

cause water can be compressed thats all =)... could u explain why ocean water at the bottom is more densed then the water up top?

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by infinitexsound

cause water can be compressed thats all =)... could u explain why ocean water at the bottom is more densed then the water up top?

OH Shizzle!!!!!!!!!!!
Infinitexsound just schooled you guy's!!!!!!! But H20 doesn't burn as well a gasoline in the combustion chamber. There are things like hydrostatic lock when you deal with H20. H20 is the hardest liquid to burn in the compression chamber............. Infact it really doesn't burn but rather vaporizes upon ignition.
Anyone ever hear of a thing called a steam engine?????? They were made before gasoline engines, and made a shit load of torque, but I guess most of you don't know much on the history of the internal combustion engine.......

[S14DB]

so, liquid gasoline burns?

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by S14DB

so, liquid gasoline burns?

Yes it can combust, burn or do otherwise (explode) when mixed with O2, and compression. I know you are smart enough and being sarcastic so break out (the smartass book) and start clownin' otherwise. I believe I proved myself pretty well. "Liquids" can compress with atomization, "solids" don't...........

Well not so true either, under intense compression with solids and gasses you can make diamonds with your ass crack (just kidding, being sarcastic and off topic).................

Gasoline is a liquid...You ever hear of a byproduct called HYDRO carbons that are produced from the lack of aspiration from advanced timing at the distributor, it caused me not to pass smog legally.........

[S14DB]

so gasoline doesn't have hydrocarbons in it? you can only get them when it's burned?

Why can't you compress a solid?

[Pank]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

OH Shizzle!!!!!!!!!!!
Infinitexsound just schooled you guy's!!!!!!! But H20 doesn't burn as well a gasoline in the combustion chamber. There are things like hydrostatic lock when you deal with H20. H20 is the hardest liquid to burn in the compression chamber............. Infact it really doesn't burn but rather vaporizes upon ignition.
Anyone ever hear of a thing called a steam engine?????? They were made before gasoline engines, and made a shit load of torque, but I guess most of you don't know much on the history of the internal combustion engine.......

are you trying to tell me a steam engine is an internal combustion engine?
also, you're not "compressing a liquid" if it instantly turns into a gas. when you vaporize fuel in the combustion chamber, it is very very very small droplets, this effectively increases the surface area, allowing them to ignite explosively, which is why you get a larger, shorter expenditure of energy, instead of the comparitively "slow burn" you get when you light a pool of gasoline on fire. When the stroke of the piston moves near TDC, it is not compressing both the air and fuel equally, it is compressing the air, which is compressing around the fuel droplets.

yes, a liquid can be "compressed". gasoline and water, however, while being a liquid, have very VERY little space in between their atoms. Their atoms can slip and move past eachother freely (hence it being a liquid), but have very very very little space between them.

and to the guy above me, a solid cant be compressed because they have no space between their molecules.


I hope you payed attention in class, because i didnt, and i still know you're wrong.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by S14DB

so gasoline doesn't have hydrocarbons in it? you can only get them when it's burned?

Why can't you compress a solid?

What are you turning this into the learning channel???J/K
Hydrocarbons are in gasoline, but technically they should be burned off in the combustion process. Advancing timing at the distributor without advancing the cams can lead the engine too choke, providng hydro carbons which is a molecule left from the composition of gasoline.
You can compress a solid, but not in an internal combustion engine, hense my sarcastic joke about diamonds......

[Pank]

well, with diamonds, the volume is the same, the intense heat and pressure just caused a chemical change in the makeup of the substance, so, no, you cant compress a solid.


edit:// i just thought about how funny it would be if the SR vs. KA argument was replaced with science arguments for the rest of Zilvias life.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by Pank

well, with diamonds, the volume is the same, the intense heat and pressure just caused a chemical change in the makeup of the substance, so, no, you cant compress a solid.

But that joke with the ass crack and diamonds was pretty funny........
AWH whatever you guy's don't understand............
Lets get back on topic to NA 300+HP KA's

[thinkmonkey]

Ok Pank, I do have to correct you. Yes you can compress a solid, just as you can compress a liquid. For practical design purposes, water is considered an incompressible fluid, that is, its density does not change with pressure. The reason anything is compressible is due to how close the atoms are packed together. If you think about air, it is highly compressible because there
is considerable spacing between the atoms, so it is relatively easy to force the atoms closer together. When you have a liquid, the atoms are much closer together and considerable pressure is required to make them any closer. Solids will compress some as well, but it takes significant pressure. Temperature also plays a factor in density (and thus compressibility), just ask your chemistry teacher about the ideal gas law.

Anything will compress.

-Dave

[Pank]

Originally Posted by thinkmonkey

Ok Pank, I do have to correct you. Yes you can compress a solid, just as you can compress a liquid. For practical design purposes, water is considered an incompressible fluid, that is, its density does not change with pressure. The reason anything is compressible is due to how close the atoms are packed together. If you think about air, it is highly compressible because there
is considerable spacing between the atoms, so it is relatively easy to force the atoms closer together. When you have a liquid, the atoms are much closer together and considerable pressure is required to make them any closer. Solids will compress some as well, but it takes significant pressure. Temperature also plays a factor in density (and thus compressibility), just ask your chemistry teacher about the ideal gas law.

Anything will compress.

-Dave

I was thinking more along the lines of actual practicality inside a combustion chamber, but you ARE correct. And i havent been in highschool in a long time

[Pank]

Originally Posted by infinitexsound

cause water can be compressed thats all =)... could u explain why ocean water at the bottom is more densed then the water up top?

because the water at the bottom is a hell of a lot colder, and has a higher saline content?

[infinitexsound]

Originally Posted by Pank

because the water at the bottom is a hell of a lot colder, and has a higher saline content?

thats not the point were talkin about liquid............ atoms always have space between them....... no matter what theres space... if u compress atoms then theres pressure... same thing with fuel.... but what ever im a dumb ass dont quote me im just drunk from drinking and chasin tail all nite this is the end of my post on this subject..

[that180guy]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Well out of all the dyno's you have ever seen on NA KA's none have ever shown a cam and ECU combo. In the spring I will install the JWT cams, and I am learning to tune Biki ROM. Total it is $1000 in parts.
if I'm still not happy (in with the super tech 10.5:1 pistons, with raised head gasket to drop compression to 10.1:1 to use 91 octane).
If you didn't notice if a 240sx has 175WHP, that is more BHP than your typical sentra SE-r specv. I would say that is relatively good numbers for an old outdated NA engine.

same route i was going, i wass thinking about the super tech pistons, but 10:5 is too much for 91 pump gas. but rasing the head didnt occur to me to lowere the compression. so what headgasket are you planning on using? or for a raise of that magnituded i would assume a custom one off piece?

[S14DB]

When did 10:5 become to much for pump gas? There are many cars that come from the factory with that CR.

[90RS13]

I was about to say, these people want a high powered N/A but are scared of high compression? And someone said none of the N/A KA dyno had cams and ecu tune......false. I've seen KA dyno with cams,ecu,ehxaust,header, and intake, and they never break mid 170's. I like N/A's and all, but you just can't expect big numbers without big $$.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by S14DB

When did 10:5 become to much for pump gas? There are many cars that come from the factory with that CR.

10.5:1 is too much for Cali pump gas 91octane...... I seem to have a hard time finding a 92 or 96 for that matter. But I do hear that there are gas stations in LA, and the sandiego area that carry 98octane. Although when I go to LA I haven't seen any station's.
My friend and I were running his L28 on 91octane, the compression was brought up to 10.6:1 with a milled head, 91octane is horrible for anything around that compression, the engine gets horrible knock and ping.......
As for lowering the compression I was going to use a multi layered cosmetic headgasket. They do have them available, I just don't remember the shop off the top of my head........I'll look it up today when I get off work.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by 90RS13

I was about to say, these people want a high powered N/A but are scared of high compression? And someone said none of the N/A KA dyno had cams and ecu tune......false. I've seen KA dyno with cams,ecu,ehxaust,header, and intake, and they never break mid 170's. I like N/A's and all, but you just can't expect big numbers without big $$.

Well I would like to say that you are full of shit. This dyno didn't use much at all just headers, ecu tune, and a cat back. NO performance cams it pulled a little more than 165WHP. So your telling me that Jim WOlF cams and a CAI are only going to make a 5WHP gain when add....LOL try more like between an additional 15~18WHP that would put it well over the mid 170's that you claim that you have seen.( it would make about 200BHP if you do the math @ the 15% degredation loss with all those modifications. It's also only $1500 in parts total)


SORRY FOR DOUBLE POSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[originalsin]

Originally Posted by Cashizslick

NA = the expensive way to go slow.

However, i'll admit that it does take a GREAT deal of skill to build and tune a powerfull NA motor.

not if its done right... i see high hp na setups as much more reliable than a turbo setup. i know a guy locally that has a beat 91 civic hatch, and ran 12's last year with a b20/vtec setup. and that was before cam and ignition tuning, his suspension wasent totally dialed in either, but serious n/a cars are no joke

[Jeff240sx]

Since when do I get corrected on a bullshit technicallity? Oh - always, because when people lose their ground to stand on - they result to misdirection and argueing moot points.

You can compress water, or almost any material. However, it requires a great deal of pressure to accomplish a little compression. For that reason, liquids and solids are sometimes referred to as being incompressible. For all practical purposes related to ANYTHING IN THIS THREAD, a liquid in uncompressable. Ya DMC, I graduated highschool. And you can't fucking compress a liquid with an engine. And why is the water at the bottom of the ocean more dense than at the top? Here's a graph taken from the U of Michigan.

Now.. does this look like constant compression? Does this look like increasing compression? Does this look like anything more than .03g/ml increase? And.. this is taking into account the temperature of the water, the salinity of water, and the TRILLIONS OF GALLONS OF WATER ABOVE IT. Go fuck yourself if you think water is compressable to any point that makes it even worthy to bring up.

Next:
Vinny, I don't understand why you posted the hyper-technical A:F post. And seeing as little of it has anything to do with what you quoted from me "power = air x fuel", ya, we all know that running too rich is bad. How do we know? because there's a point where you flood the cylinders and the car won't start. This is a pretty infantile point, and unnecessary to copy some engineer's discertation on latent and specific heat.
However, if we had a fuel that was easier to ignite, we could add more fuel to the same ammount of air, and make a ton more power.. As you know/stated/proved, more gasoline = harder to combust. That's why there's methanol, which can run at 6.0:1 a/f, and makes around 20% more power. And, nitromethane, which can run at 1.7:1 and makes 120% more power. So.. it's just a limit of gasoline.

Onto page 3:

I believe I proved myself pretty well. "Liquids" can compress with atomization

No.. you didn't. When you "atomize" something.. which should read "vaporize", then you've changed the state of the substance. In this case, from an uncompressable liquid to a highly compressable gas. Not even close to compressing a liquid.
Solids can be compressed to the same extent that liquids can. You apply 100,000 tons of pressure to a machined rod, and you have a forged rod that's been compressed 1 x 10^-6 inches. Does this have anything to do with this discussion? No, just another failed arguement that's resorted to bs technicallities.
And, I'm with Pank here. Don't tell me that a steam engine is internal combustion anything. Want to know what the steam engine's successor is? Certainly not the IC engine. It's the nuclear reactor and nuclear engine used in submarines.

So.. summation? Don't pull bullshit technicalities during a discussion about what occurs in an engine. It pisses me off, and shows a distinct lack of knowledge on your part when you have a whole post to nitpick, and only point out the one minutia. Everything is compressable with millions of pounds of pressure per square inch. Good thing there's only 180psi in our motor, and can't compress anything we've discussed.
Of course too high of A:F is bad with gasoline. We've known this, and it didnt' take an engineer's excerpt to drive that point. For NA, using a different fuel method would certainly be the way to go.
Vinny - I dont' think I've seen a daily driving NA KA at 200hp. I've seen a 185hp dyno, and I think that with just cams, that's all you'll hit too.
-Jeff

[Jeff240sx]

Ok.. to the emerging subject of Vinny's 200hp goal.

10.5:1 CR is required, if not higher. ECU tune. Not JWT if it were me - it'd be Enthalpy's ecu. I know how much more power it made on my KA-T over the JWT.
Then you'll need an intake, header, exhaust, cams, cam gears to dial them in for the 3-5hp it'd be worth. Ignition system so you can open up the plug gap and get the most of your fuel. Will it make 200whp? I don't know. It'd be close.. 200 +/- 5hp I'd guess. There's alot of headwork you can do, a light port and polish, valve job, oversized valves. If you got dual springs and retainers, and forged rods, you could rev to 8k provided the cams made power up there (the JWT cams I took to 7500 all the time.) Now you will be over 200whp. And, you could still do up some form of shorty intake manifold or ITBs, and make a bit more. But do I see it making even 225whp? No. And how much got spent? Just ballparking - $1000 for I/H/E. $500 for Enthalpy ECU. $400 on ignition box, wires and plugs. $700 on cams and cam gears, $350 on valves, $350 on springs and retainers. $500 on PNP and valvejob. $400 on pistons, $500 on rods, $300 for seals, gaskets and bearings to replace during the rebuild.
Total: $5000 ish. Make 225whp? Again, I really doubt it.
-Jeff

[drift freaq]

ok lets sum this up. Trying to get high hp out of a dual cam KA? One name Alex Chang! He tried, used JWT cams and ecu with a few other things barely got 200HP.
Next, The KA24DE head does not lend itself well to porting. Why? It basically is a thin walled, short runner, siamised port head. Not a lot to port there. It's actually why its s decent turbo head.IMHO.
Now the Single cam KA is great for porting with seperate runner ports and more material being able to be removed. One of the reasons you see the SCCA guys opting for the single cam over the dual cam engine.
Now as far as Vinnie's issue with high comp on pump gas goes. Yes Vinnie a L28 with high compression will not respond well to current pump gas i.e. ping city.
Though, modern high compression engines have an advantage here. Its called computer controlled FI and ignition. With the computer controlling this stuff it can adjust the air fuel mixture much more finely than the old school fuel injection from a late 280z or carburetors(which basically just dump slight atomized fuel in). Hence new high compression engines can run on lower octane gas the previously was possible. The computer combined with the injection achieves a much finer atomization process of the fuel thereby getting much better combustion results burn wise. Add to that the computers ability to retard or advance timing through a knock sensor and you have the ability to run a high compression engine, on todays pump gas.
Our 240's computers do this rudimently though not to the degree that that current new cars are capable of.
Hence the 300HP NA high compression(10.5-11.0:1) V6 in the 350z and G35, that runs on 91 octane pump gas here in California.

[Jeff240sx]

My head was ported. I always say light port and polish because the head is so thin. But, there were alot of casting marks in the head that got knocked out, some rough edges rounded out, and then a full-on polish.
I've made alot of posts about this in the past.
-Jeff

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by Jeff240sx

My head was ported. I always say light port and polish because the head is so thin. But, there were alot of casting marks in the head that got knocked out, some rough edges rounded out, and then a full-on polish.
I've made alot of posts about this in the past.
-Jeff

point taken, though you do agree not a lot to port. I do wonder Jeff though, how much porting helped you, in the forced induction situation.

[90RS13]

Well I would like to say that you are full of shit. This dyno didn't use much at all just headers, ecu tune, and a cat back. NO performance cams it pulled a little more than 165WHP.

First off, why get so hostile when someone makes a post you don't agree with? Just show them why you think they're wrong in a civilised manner. Why would you call me a liar just because I've seen a dyno making less power than what you think it should?

Anywho, that dyno seems very optimistic to me for only header,cat-back, and tune. If it's a DE That's 155 base or around 132 whp. That means the mods had to do about...Exhuast-15whp, header-9whp, tune-9whp. They could do it, but that's about the very top end of what you can expect on a KA. Most won't make that much. The dynos I've seen weren't nearly that good like, the pdm car with intake,pully,header,cam, and tuning..




It doesn't say if they had a cat-back, but I've never seen someone get a header before and exhaust with a KA but even if it's without, adding a cat-back and getting 15whp would bring you to 176whp. About what I said Is the highest I've seen.

If you think you can make power easier than I think you can, woo hoo. That's your opinion, but no reason to get mad just cause I don't agree with you.

[Jeff240sx]

^^ Thinking Vinny's pull was 3rd gear?

Drift Freaq - I don't have any numbers on the porting - because I did so much all at once (cams, porting, lower compression, flywheel, ect).
But... I think it helped immensely. Cams and low comp slugs should lower the bottom end on our car. Big exhaust (3" turbo-back) should also lower the low-end torque a bit. My car was SO fast off the line, even other people (maxtype240), who owned a stock-internal KA-T, with flywheel and pullies and more boost than myself, was impressed at just how well the low-end on my car was. Once he built his motor.. he said it didn't have the pep mine did. I've yet to ride in another KA-T that has NEARLY the low-end that mine did... stock or otherwise. The only thing that I did that most don't do is the PNP. Everything else should have made my car less efficient. The only cars I've ever had to run down were AWD cars that could launch (R32 golf modded). I kept with scooby WRXs out of the hole, and just raped them when boost and cam rpms came into play.
-Jeff

[chibo]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

10.5:1 is too much for Cali pump gas 91octane...

If that's the case than the M5 wouldn't be sold there, as it has a stock compression ratio of 12.0:1

The black beast in the background there has over 2000 miles on 91 octane with no problems at all

[that180guy]

let me reiterate.
10:5 is TOO MUCH FOR A KA to be ran on 91 pump gas.this is due to the design of the motor. low oct + high comp ka = kaboom city or a shit load of tunning for no reason.
plenty of motors out there can run sky high compressions and run 91 pump, but NOT A KA

just as drift freaq said,
so READ before you post chibo

Drift Freaq,
- doesnt also the design of the motor itself also come into play? i know on the sr20de forums, the guys talk about how the design of the sr block has thin cylinder walls and its water jacket design doesnt disapate heat as well as lets say a B16 motor. KA also itself has thin cylinder walls. and a weak head