All motor 240 ideas.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by racepar1

UGH! Not AGAIN! THIS thread is about all motor KA's what does a VQ swap have to do with that at all? Please keep this crap outta here.

The title of the thread was misleading. I originally thought he wanted any NA motor in a 240, but if you actually read the first post you find out that he really wants to build a KA-E NA motor.

Reading comprehension? What's that?

[KA240SX808]

What happened to this thread? lamo

[MikeisNissan]

yeah if everyone played by the rules here I would like this thread.

[Tulok]

the destroking kit sounds like the way to got for ultimate power.
when you destroke a motor the average piston speed goes down, allowing you to safely rev higher.
That, combined with a super aggressive cam, oversized valves, 14-15:1 pistons and individual throttle bodies would definitely give the flow and revs needed to make all that power.
not to mention underdrive pulleys, race tuned headers, electric fans etc.
any flaws i am missing here?

[300hp owen]

wow you got your panties all in a bunch over what, wow dude chill the eFF out, thanks for the neg. rep, thats so cool. you rock.

many people mentioned the GT2/3 cars running 300HP all motor KAs and THAT IS WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO you fucking douchebag.

an all motor KA that is comparable in power to an LS1 will cost MORE than the LS1, imho.

lol you are messed up in the head man, or you think the LS1 swaps are hard as hell and uber expensive... Ive done LS1 swaps so I have a bit of knowledge on the subject, but you, are you being a bitter dreamer or just a douche today. posts like yours with hysterical negativity and no room for humor are just another reason the intArweb sucks.

lol. you fail.

[Tulok]

Check this out guys,
http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/ot...59606209ss.htm
gives a lot of the specs,

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by 300hp owen

wow you got your panties all in a bunch over what, wow dude chill the eFF out, thanks for the neg. rep, thats so cool. you rock.

many people mentioned the GT2/3 cars running 300HP all motor KAs and THAT IS WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO you fucking douchebag.

an all motor KA that is comparable in power to an LS1 will cost MORE than the LS1, imho.

lol you are messed up in the head man, or you think the LS1 swaps are hard as hell and uber expensive... Ive done LS1 swaps so I have a bit of knowledge on the subject, but you, are you being a bitter dreamer or just a douche today. posts like yours with hysterical negativity and no room for humor are just another reason the intArweb sucks.

lol. you fail.

A well done ls1 swap will have about 400hp, a well built KA (gt3 spec or so) will have about 300hp, YOU are wrong. A LS1 motorset with wiring harness, ECU, trans, and all the pumps will cost you about $3500-$5000. Then you either have to buy the mount kit or build your own. That will cost around $1000. THEN you have to have a custom exhaust made, which will be around $500 or so (guessing) for a well done mandrel bent set-up with mufflers. THEN you need a driveshaft, probably $300-$400 for a nice custom one. Then you need to have the wiring done (if you are not capable of doing it yourself), let's say $400 (maybe a little too much). So far we are up to $5700-$7300 and that does not include a LOT of stuff like intake, belts, hoses, fluids, radiator, etc... Most of the things I listed 99% of people will HAVE to pay for, the wiring is the one exception. You can save some money by putting the mount kit together yourself, but the cost in YOUR labor time will more than offset the cost of that. I have done the research and want a LS1 myself, but that is not the point. The point is that this thread is not about ANY other N/A engines than the KA's. You fail and got neg repped because YOU felt the need to bump this thread, which has run it's course already, with info that has nothing at all to do with this thread and is not correct. You can build a pretty damn badass KA for about the same amount of money as a LS1 swap and it is less complicated since the KA is the original engine for the car. If YOU don't like the KA then what is the point of YOU posting in this thread? Go post in the "v-8 240sx faq" or any of the multitude of KA hating threads here.

[300hp owen]

Originally Posted by racepar1

A well done ls1 swap will have about 400hp, a well built KA (gt3 spec or so) will have about 300hp, YOU are wrong.

wtf this still bothers me.
a well done LS1 swap is just that, a swap, were not talking about modifying an LS1, especially when considering a budget build and last I check the stock LS1 puts down about 300hp. I know in the process of swapping one into a 240sx you can run a more free flowing exhaust, special headers and a nice CAI but without other mods like t/b porting and a bigger intake, etc you are not going to see 400hp. so a basic LS1 swap will still be pushing about 300hp.

yeah yeah yeah you can start with an LS2 or LS6 and you can buildup an LS1 with mods galore to see whatever hp level you want but for this discussion it was just a noteworthy idea to think about a very simple, very basic, LS1 swap for a better financial option to a 300hp n/a KA motor setup.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by water

I hope you do. It really doesn't disprove my point which was that its obviously not as easy as people think. And for less money I could still do be better with another engine. So have fun. I am. :>

I am willing to bet that you spent enough on your SR to easily build a 200hp or so KA. Easy is a relative term. There is nothing easier than slapping a bigger turbo on to make more power (except nitrous), there is more involved than JUST the turbo but not much. If YOU think that you can do better then good for you, our definitions of better are different. To you better means more power. To me better means a very responsive engine built N/A, and be at least somewhat original. I don't care if it is easier with other engines, easier isn't my point nor is total HP. I don't need a bajillion horsepower to do what I want, I DO need a more responsive moderately powerful engine. Horsepower doesn't make faster lap times, the driver and the suspension do that.

Originally Posted by 300hp owen

wtf this still bothers me.
a well done LS1 swap is just that, a swap, were not talking about modifying an LS1, especially when considering a budget build and last I check the stock LS1 puts down about 300hp. I know in the process of swapping one into a 240sx you can run a more free flowing exhaust, special headers and a nice CAI but without other mods like t/b porting and a bigger intake, etc you are not going to see 400hp. so a basic LS1 swap will still be pushing about 300hp.

yeah yeah yeah you can start with an LS2 or LS6 and you can buildup an LS1 with mods galore to see whatever hp level you want but for this discussion it was just a noteworthy idea to think about a very simple, very basic, LS1 swap for a better financial option to a 300hp n/a KA motor setup.

Dude I posted that like 2 days ago, this conversation is soooo over. MY ls1 swap would be more complicated than building a KA. I would make my own mount kit so that I can put the motor where it should be, which will take like eleventy billion hours.

[300hp owen]

BigVinnie, youre making a lot of sense, good stuff.

Originally Posted by racepar1

MY ls1 swap would be more complicated than building a KA.

hey thats not my fault, or even what I am talking about for the sake of the thread. at least compare apples to apples and not your dreamy dream setup from the far away future. even saing that, theres no reason someone couldnt do all of the same stuff to maximize a N/A KA24E buildup, like dry sump oiling, altered subframe to reduce cg, etc!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by racepar1

I would make my own mount kit so that I can put the motor where it should be, which will take like eleventy billion hours.

and that is just one more reason your LS1 swap isnt done yet. if you did a simple swap you would be blown away by the performance and not be held up with eleventy billion things to modify and go wrong and tune and dial in. trust me, out of the 5 local LS1FCs, 2 of us went simple while the other guys spent thousands of dollars on extra mods and special fuel setups and tuning, blah blah blah, they all had so much downtime because of mods and issues from such a complicated buildup, I just enjoy driving and how much faster does this car need to be, its already stupidfast.

[water]

Originally Posted by racepar1

I am willing to bet that you spent enough on your SR to easily build a 200hp or so KA. Easy is a relative term. There is nothing easier than slapping a bigger turbo on to make more power (except nitrous), there is more involved than JUST the turbo but not much. If YOU think that you can do better then good for you, our definitions of better are different. To you better means more power. To me better means a very responsive engine built N/A, and be at least somewhat original. I don't care if it is easier with other engines, easier isn't my point nor is total HP. I don't need a bajillion horsepower to do what I want, I DO need a more responsive moderately powerful engine. Horsepower doesn't make faster lap times, the driver and the suspension do that.

Are you mental? If all I cared about was peak hp, my setup would not have been what it was, nor would I have been pointing attention to my powerband, and I would have just posted up the 20+psi graphs (which were just for fun). I could have gotten a GT30r just as easily and sacrificed some spool and response for peak hp. Or a larger turbine a/r. Anyone into road racing should be able to appreciate the powerband I had - which is exactly what I had intended when I designed that setup. Notice how after reaching peak tq it doesn't drop at all before redlining (with any bit of significance)? My car was a rock solid track car, very responsive, and a BLAST to drive.

[S14SwimShark105]

Originally Posted by racepar1

.Horsepower doesn't make faster lap times, the driver and the suspension do that.

I think you are wrong.Think about what you are saying here. Of course the driver and suspension setup make the car go faster around a track, but to say horsepower doesn't make faster lap times is a complete LIE and a complete ignorant thing to say.

I also drive a stock KA with just intake headers and exhaust and mostly all of the suspension parts so don't think I'm power hungry. And yes I think more horsepower will do me a lot of good and make my lap times go a lot quicker from where I am at now.

This is an awesome thread, I like reading about what people have to say about N/A KA's or LS1 swaps or whatevers. Very interesting and at times very funny haha.

[S14SwimShark105]

hahahaha I could not stop laughing at this post lol good good point over racepar he got

Building engines aren't cheap let alone building a fully built N/A motor. To be putting out 300hp on a KA I would think it would need to be rebuilt very often. So the cost of getting a KA to 300hp and the maintenance wouldn't even be worth it unless you have a big budget to play with.

Originally Posted by 300hp owen

wow you got your panties all in a bunch over what, wow dude chill the eFF out, thanks for the neg. rep, thats so cool. you rock.

many people mentioned the GT2/3 cars running 300HP all motor KAs and THAT IS WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO you fucking douchebag.

an all motor KA that is comparable in power to an LS1 will cost MORE than the LS1, imho.

lol you are messed up in the head man, or you think the LS1 swaps are hard as hell and uber expensive... Ive done LS1 swaps so I have a bit of knowledge on the subject, but you, are you being a bitter dreamer or just a douche today. posts like yours with hysterical negativity and no room for humor are just another reason the intArweb sucks.

lol. you fail.

[300hp owen]

rofl.
in all of that jibberish you fail to even mention how much the GT3 spec all motor 300hp KA would cost... so how are you making a comparison at all? FAIL.

I would not fear saying that a GT3 spec 300hp KA would be very expensive... thats a race motor and damn thats not cheap.

my '98 LS1T56 dropout was $2500. I even went balls out and paid $800 to have my LS1 harness reworked and PCM tuned. um, to get that into a 240 is not that difficult even if you buy parts, and you still get to SELL THE KA that you arent using any more. I mention a '98 LS1 because theyre cheap and they are pushing the same hp that the GT3 KA motors are pushing, so its an apples to apples hp comparison and thus the cost is the item in discussion. the misc. parts needed to have the car up and running are just peanuts, chump change, when you consider the RACE PARTS and tuning up the fucking WAZOOO that you'd need to churn out 300hp from a KA. or did you want to stoke your KA as well and have that super rare rotating assembly on your list of items to purchase so you can have a $10,000 300hp KA? um, did you even think about the beefing up you'd need to do to the KA tranny to relaibly push 300hp thru it? or were you going to run a Z32 trans and an adapter and all that crap, that costs BUTTLOADS of money.

why so bent over my "bumping the thread", wtf, its not like it was a dead month old thread. I never said I didnt like the KA and quite the contrary, stop making assumtions on my beliefs, wtf. I am the last guy who would be an LS1 nazi.

ya know what, people were discussing the costs involved, LS1 got mentioned, I added my 2cents with humor and you FAIL to realize that.

and another thing, if you think a GT3 spec KA is less complicated than a bare bones LS1 swap in a 240sx, well then I have news for you, its not. go find a competent shop and ask them to price out a 300hp KA setup with a tranny and bolt ons that will endure that and support the power, then dont be surprised when its almost twice as costly as swapping in an early-gen LS1T56 setup to get the same power and even better gearing.

yeah I know the thread was about n/a KA but threads evolve beyond the initial post, dont they? whatever. fucking forum police yay!

[300hp owen]

so someone posted then erased it but -

"check this out" - http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/ot...59606209ss.htm

yeah NO SHIT!

"This is a race ready SCCA GT3 engine. Does not include flywheel, clutch, or mag PU bracket and carbs. These parts are available for additional cost"

on top of the SIXTY FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
racepar = fail.

[timster]

Just dropping by. I've weighed options, N/A, RB, KA-T, SR20, LS1, and I've driven almost all of them (gotten rides in others). Bang for the buck, if you don't mind not being a "purist" and being a complete and utter "failure" then LS1 is pretty siqq.

Owen you FIAL.

[timster]

And yeah, for a siqq nasty N/A build (rough prices, even worse estimates than yours, racepar):

Pistons 500
Rods 400
Flywheel 300
Clutch / PP 500
Valves / Springs / Retainers 300
Cams 600
ECU / AEM EMS (gotta make it run?) 500-1700
Machining (headwork gets expensive?) 500+
Stickers 5

So that's 4000+ dollars for <225 horsepower.

Just my two cents.

[flip3d]

What's wrong with the SR20DE? They look like they make good power.

[300hp owen]

/\/\/\/\ that is gorgeous!!!!!!!!
all aluminum SR20 is so nice!

[timster]

Originally Posted by 300hp owen

//// that is gorgeous!!!!!!!!
all aluminum SR20 is so nice!

.. Where are the other four cylinders?

[racepar1]

$6400 is a bargain for a race-ready longblock. Ever seen the prices for a formula atlantic spec 4ag from an engine builder? It'll make you have a heart attack. With an LS1 swap it is not hard to spend around $7000-$10,000. Yes you can do it cheaper if you hunt for deals and/or have hookups. But you can build your own GT3 spec KA longblock for cheaper if you hunt for deals and/or have hookups too. It is no cheaper to do an LS1 swap then it is to build a badass KA, PERIOD. I am "policing" (as you say) this thread because it WAS a good thread. Good discussions on what it takes to make a KA badass, and that is the whole point here. Now it has turned into the same old crap, a discussion on what the best N/A motor is. The KA is not the best motor in the world, we all know that, but it IS a good motor.

TIMSTER: $4000+ for a 225hp motor sounds EXACTLY like a SR to me! People spend that kind of money for that kind of power on SR's all the time (including the swap)! What makes the KA not worthy? A 200hp N/A KA will absouluely OWN a 200hp SR because the KA 1: has more torque 2: is a n/a motor and therefore has better response than a turbo motor (assuming the tuning is well done).

[300hp owen]

Originally Posted by racepar1

It is no cheaper to do an LS1 swap then it is to build a badass KA, PERIOD.

I think you are dead wrong if you compare an LS1 and a KA that put down the same power numbers thru the same type of durable drivetrain. reason being the KA is more stressed, high strung, on the edge to produce the same numbers. I'll concede the difference probably isnt much, but I do believe the LS1 is cheaper, hp for hp... especially in the long run when you have to consider rebuilding and general maintenance.

imho the SR's (w/coil packs) and LS1's both have better ignition than the KA, stock for stock and I think the LS1 wins hands down in the stock computers tuning capabilites and low costs of tuning.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by 300hp owen

I think you are dead wrong if you compare an LS1 and a KA that put down the same power numbers thru the same type of durable drivetrain. reason being the KA is more stressed, high strung, on the edge to produce the same numbers. I'll concede the difference probably isnt much, but I do believe the LS1 is cheaper, hp for hp... especially in the long run when you have to consider rebuilding and general maintenance.

imho the SR's (w/coil packs) and LS1's both have better ignition than the KA, stock for stock and I think the LS1 wins hands down in the stock computers tuning capabilites and low costs of tuning.

If you are looking at it as a ratio of hp/$ of course the LS1 is cheaper. It comes stock with more than double the hp of the KA. A high HP KA is definitely high strung, any 4-cylinder motor pushing that king of hp is high strung. There is really no comparing an LS1 to a KA though. The LS1 is the superior motor, HANDS DOWN. But to say that an LS1 swap is any cheaper or easier than building a good KA is wrong. IF the LS1 swap is any cheaper it is only marginally so and only if you are doing an all-out GT3 KA build. You can build a 200hp or so, pump gas burning, all motor KA for way less than swapping an LS1 and it will still be a ton of fun and outperform most SR cars at the track.

[irax]

only problem with NA sr is that those of us in the US have to invest into atleast 2k just to get the motor and then your going to have to invest into the build.
And I bet you good money that he spent more than 6k just to have 220 NA hp

where is that 200hp na ka for about 1k link?

[irax]

its stupid to compare a 4cyl to a V-anything your ignoring the simple fact that it has more cylinder it will always be easier to make more power with more cylinders

[floodo1]

d00d seriuosly ls1 weighs how man times more than a ka?

[Mr. Jesse]

200 hp is weaksauce for that kind of money.

Originally Posted by floodo1

d00d seriuosly ls1 weighs how man times more than a ka?

ls1 w/tranny ~ 500
ka24de w/tranny ~ 450

ka's are heavy as shit

[floodo1]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jesse

200 hp is weaksauce for that kind of money.



ls1 w/tranny ~ 500
ka24de w/tranny ~ 450

ka's are heavy as shit

as heavy as an ls1? and seriously.....THIS THREAD IS ABOUT KA's NOT LS1's

[timster]

I fail at multiquoting, so I'm not going to bother.

Racepar: That was a low estimate pricewise and a high estimate with horsepower. And really? N/A is more responsive than Turbo? I thought you had to build vacuum with a N/A.

irax: Then why do people say the replacement for displacement is boost? Just messing with you, but if you're going to consider one (KA) then you've got to consider the other (LSx). They've got their pros and cons, and to each their own I suppose.

flood: Fail. Look at the title again. I'll reiterate for you. "All motor 240 ideas." Not all motor KA ideas, not all large letter / bold / oblivious answers.

Edit: Don't take me for some KA hater. I've got one in the car now, and I've got one in the garage. I've got enough stuff to make two more KA powered 240s. I'm a car guy, though, and I like all around cars. I'm a fan of the KA engine, simply because of how it's progressed in the past few years, but I won't be going that route with my car.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by floodo1

d00d seriuosly ls1 weighs how man times more than a ka?

Sorry dude, but an LS1 engine with trans, clutch and flywheel, and all pumps and accessories weighs significantly less than a KA with all the same stuff on it.

Originally Posted by timster

Racepar: That was a low estimate pricewise and a high estimate with horsepower. And really? N/A is more responsive than Turbo? I thought you had to build vacuum with a N/A.

You have to build boost with a turbo motor, NOT vacuum with a N/A motor. You have it backwards. Well built/tuned N/A motors are known for razor sharp throttle response. As for the title of the thread it is a bit misleading, if you take the time to read the first post you will see that the OP is only interested in all motor KA ideas, NOT an argument over what is the best N/A motor to swap in. The bottom line is that there is NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT. The REALLY hardcore turbo KA's that I have seen make more power and torque than any of the REALLY hardcore SR's that I have seen. This is because of the larger displacement. More displacement means the motor can spool a bigger turbo faster, which means a better power/torque curve and more overall hp. The other advantages that the KA have are:

1: Iron block- An iron block is more durable and handles high cylinder pressures and heat better. This means more boost or compression.

2: More reliable valvetrain- Since the KA's have the cams pushing directly on the bucket lifters instead of the stupid SR rocker arms there are less moving parts and less potential problems.