JWT vs Enthalpy ECU comparison dyno results!! *Another* 400 whp CodyAce Built Car

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I am not tuned on the ragged edge like cody would like you all to believe. My A/F ratios were and are well within the safe range and I only pinged on some bad gas that I picked up from a BP station in another state. This could have happened to anyone in the 240 community. Turning off a knock sensor past 4 grand is just not smart but who am I to talk. Happy ROM tune thread cause I am not posting here again. My tuner is excellent and good and I trust him. So, no more posting in this thread draw your own conclusions.

Posts like this are pretty easy to determine who knows what they are talking about, and just further prove how much you have to learn yet. I'm glad you trust your tuner. I'd be upset it doesn't make as much power as these ROM cars do, but that's just me.

Again, consider these points. This is just good solid information foreveryone considering these tunes for the car, and their alternatives.

• If a car 'pings' on random 93, it's got to much timing. JWT and Enthalpy ECU's dont' do that
  
• AFR has NOTHING to do with detonation. 11.3 @ WOT with 28 degres will melt a piston. Much like 12.7 @ WOT with 10 degrees of timing won't pop a motor either. I'd rather make power with boost and fuel, not timing. Once again, ROM tunes are safe in this area as their timing maps are very conservative, yet their fuel is a bit on the safe side. I'll always be a fan of big fuel big boost low timing. I'd rather potentially lift a head with 35 psi than shatter a piston making the same power at 25 psi by keeping it hot.
  
• You just said your knock sensor picks up phantom knock. What good is that when you have a safe tune, yet picks up the timing chain rattle and confuses it for knock, which brings back power potential? There are easily 3000+ cars out there with JWT tunes on all sorts of Nissans...I'm certain Enthalpy has tuned a huge amount as well...I'd trust them and what they decide is safe or not safe.
  
• Remember, AFR/Knock count are just 'tools' used in tuning -- they should NEVER be trusted 100% or followed as gospel.
  
• I'm not claiming a standalone CAN'T make more power reliably...that's not my claim at all. I know for a fact their are 425+ guys (hell look at this thread alone with 4x4lx for example). It is possible to make even more power, but that comes with knowledge, and experience. Again, the example in here with what is possible with some more timing/e85 on stock cams is incredible...just goes to show everyone how much timing affects power.
  

Remember, at the end of the day, reliability is the biggest concern out of any car I play with. I'd always take a few HP off peak to keep it reliable 'just in case' The world's a strange place anymore...I'd rather side with caution/safety than the dynograph wars

[Slidin' Sam]

Wow! This thread got REALLY intense. Last time I read it, we were talking about the difference in tunes between JWT and Enthalpy, right?...while this fuel debate is a good topic for everyone to research and discuss, can we put it in a different thread?

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by Slidin' Sam

Wow! This thread got REALLY intense. Last time I read it, we were talking about the difference in tunes between JWT and Enthalpy, right?...while this fuel debate is a good topic for everyone to research and discuss, can we put it in a different thread?

it is in a different thread under Engine Tech

[sirfallsalot243]

I think its all good information, even though its gone OT. Its like mythbusters. Hemicharger gives us the myth, and Cody BUSTS it. haha.

I dont have an issue with a thread going offtopic if the topic still has good information, which this thread is loaded with.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by sirfallsalot243

I think its all good information, even though its gone OT. Its like mythbusters. Hemicharger gives us the myth, and Cody BUSTS it. haha.

I dont have an issue with a thread going offtopic if the topic still has good information, which this thread is loaded with.

you know what all you nickel and dimer douche bags who do not have the money or the time to do their cars the right way and end up blowing up their POS s13s up deserve what you get. It is shit talkers like you all following some other idiot who thinks they know everything that gives this community such a bad rap. I have ran my car a lot longer than cody ricer and I have NEVER EVER blown it up or melted a piston. I remember calling the ROM tuners before I bought my Apexi and was so impressed that I decided to spend 2 - 3 times as much to make less power. Sure? I am not as modified engine wise as most of you all. I do not run 11 or 11.5 degree cams so I should not make as much up top. So keep spending 10 dollars for a bracket 300 dollars for a tune and keep having the bracket vibrate and slide loose and run your canned tune based off somebody's setup for as long as it does not blow up your car. Their is no changing your minds that is why I decided not to post in this thread and then you continue to attack with your misinformation and pure stupidity.

Turn off a knock sensor cause it picks up timing chain rattle come on? If you knock sensor is picking up timing chain rattle then you have something else going on. I bet my car is still running when codyace's shit is melted and blown up and setting in his know everything's tuners garage. Prue and utter stupidity.

[sirfallsalot243]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

you know what all you nickel and dimer douche bags who do not have the money or the time to do their cars the right way and end up blowing up their POS s13s up deserve what you get. It is shit talkers like you all following some other idiot who thinks they know everything that gives this community such a bad rap.

To the outside person, its VERY easy to see who in this thread knows what theyre talking about and who doesnt. You have SOME knowledge about cars, but youre incredibly narrow-minded. You keep insisting on making this a standalone vs rom tune discussion, which isnt what Cody was trying to do here at all. YES, a standalone can do more than a rom tune. The point he was making (ie, the point that you keep missing, over and over again) is that GREAT RESULTS can be had from a ROM tune WITHOUT spending a lot of money. Whether or not we have the money for standalone is irrelevant. The point hes making is that you dont NEED to spend that $1500 on a PFC when your goals are only in the 400whp range.

I dont have the money to do my car the right way? My last car was a fully built NATURALLY ASPIRATED 1.8L that made 200whp on a dynojet, with AEM EMS. You think youve got money into your car, try an NA setup. Dont tell me I'm too poor to do things the right way. I'm just not going to throw my money away on a standalone ECU when its WAY OVERKILL for what I'm trying to do.

I thought you werent posting in here anymore? Seriously, Ill paypal you $10. Just stfu. Each argument you make, each time you cut Cody down, just shows how obvious it is that youre reaching for anything to make your point valid. His A/C brackets are tried and true. Youre just attacking them because in a real technical discussion, you get your ass handed to you time and time again. Seriously. Just stop.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I have ran my car a lot longer than cody icer and I have NEVER EVER blown it up or melted a piston.

This engine has nearly 15 HPDE days on it without issue, That's nearly 2 to 3 hours of WOT, hard on and off, downshifting, big water temps, etc etc. No issues. Think what you want about how great your car is, and I'll remember when I'm going 150 at the Glen, and then getting on the binders to 60, only to get going 110 again into the boot. I'll also think about it when I drive my car home from the track.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Turn off a knock sensor cause it picks up timing chain rattle come on? If you knock sensor is picking up timing chain rattle then you have something else going on. I bet my car is still running when codyace's shit is melted and blown up and setting in his know everything's tuners garage. Prue and utter stupidity.

I don't have a tuners garage. I built this myself. From the rod bearings to the coilover gland nuts, and from the Roll bar to the alignment. Trust me kid, the car's beyond your capability, so why even talk shit. If you feel the need to put my car down, or say how shitty it is, I'll cover your gas to drive out here for a track day to compare. Get that last word in, you really need it. How's it feel to be the laughing stock of the thread?

[jspaeth]

I just want to point out that in my LIMITED EXPERIENCE WITH MY CAR, the OEM knock sensor is working VERY well for me.

I have a PFC....with stock head, I would see typical knock counts of 10-12 or less when getting on it.

Occasinally (due to piston slap I think) at very high RPM when hitting fuel cut or in between hard shifts, I would see it spike to like 50 or 60 for a SPLIT second.


After installing my bigger cams and stiffer valve springs, I now see it go up to around 20 on normal driving at high RPM....this is normal.

ONE time, I overboosted and actually heard the engine knock (only a little bit for a second).

Sure enough, the knock sensor read in the 70s.

That being said, I believe MY knock sensor (OEM) on MY setup is working just fine. I feel that I have driven the car enough that I know that knock of 20 or less is just drivetrain noise.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

I just want to point out that in my LIMITED EXPERIENCE WITH MY CAR, the OEM knock sensor is working VERY well for me.

The knock sensors do work well, but the problem is - they often work too well. I'd say darn near worse than LSx/3800 ones. They are certainly a valuable tool, but in the same respect also nothing to base everything from. With that said, I do know a few guys that only roll by the knock...essentially make power till it pings ya know.

As with anything, there is no perfect way. The thing is, (and you know this especially as you do a very good job of troubleshooting for sure, unlike most haha) the best thing to do is get all the information, and decide which is best from there, never staying 'bias'.

[2fast4y0u]

i dont have time to comments on the shit that was posted before until tomorrow...

Heres something i dont think has been mentioned, maybe it has:
Rom tune theres only minor tuning if any when you get a new part. you dont have to do start it and "hope" it runs and possibly be running super rich/lean and harm your setup.
i know that when i get a new part, install it, get my new rom tune...i can just start my car and drive the shit out of it. one check with the wide band and im good to go.

[4x4le]

cody, I now wish I was talking shit this entire thread because I would have taken you up on your offer. You know, the one about covering gas to run at the Glen... I guess Ill have to dream on!
Just dont get me that cheap stuff because I dont want to be detenating the whole way. I want 93 shell with v-power additive that is enhanced with nitrogen and keeps my valves clean because it comes from the tops of the fuel tanks and is actually rated at a higher octane than advertised.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^^^^ Is a joke in case people didnt notice.

And enhanced with nitrogen...... To me, nitrogen is nothing. It does not burn, it does not change pressure with temperature and it is a gas. If anything this tells me that gas particles are displacing liquid volume thus giving you less gas when you pump (if it indeed actually has it in it in the first place. Nitrogen is the fanciest way to say NOTHING, because if there is a element that is nothing it is nitrogen. The air we breathe is 78% nitrogen, why should we add a few more particles to our gas? Is that little bit going to get the valves that much cleaner than the nitrogen in the air is going to get them anyways?
I bet 3 years ago hemi charger was on the forums preaching about the tornado fuel saver. ZOMG!!!!11 IT SPINS THE AIR MIXING THE FUEL BETTAR!!!1

[R.S. Enthalpy]

I finally took a look at this thread and the logs... although my 20 psi log stops at 4900 rpm.. I would like to see the MAF values which kind of tell the story of how consistent the boost controller is between runs. I was hoping for AFR plots as well in the drf files, which are not there... That is kind of crucial in comparing tunes.


I have a ton of these kinds of comparo dyno charts my customers have sent in after I did their ecus... but I don't post stuff like this.. it entices too much forum drama.


R.S. Enthalpy

[mattsil80wis]

Originally Posted by R.S. Enthalpy

I finally took a look at this thread and the logs... although my 20 psi log stops at 4900 rpm.. I would like to see the MAF values which kind of tell the story of how consistent the boost controller is between runs. I was hoping for AFR plots as well in the drf files, which are not there... That is kind of crucial in comparing tunes.


I have a ton of these kinds of comparo dyno charts my customers have sent in after I did their ecus... but I don't post stuff like this.. it entices too much forum drama.


R.S. Enthalpy

i will have cody email you the other datalogs that we have for the car too

we never touched the boost controller between runs other than to turn it off (10psi) and to turn it on to high boost (20psi)

afrs was 11.3-11.8 range for both ecus

thanks again for helping me out with everything on this car...i tell everyone about how great you guys are and how helpful you have been through this whole process

[g6civcx]

codyace, your car sucks ass. I'll bring mine up and you can run me at your favourite short track.

I predict... double DNF!!!

[codyace]

Originally Posted by R.S. Enthalpy

I finally took a look at this thread and the logs... although my 20 psi log stops at 4900 rpm.. I would like to see the MAF values which kind of tell the story of how consistent the boost controller is between runs. I was hoping for AFR plots as well in the drf files, which are not there... That is kind of crucial in comparing tunes.

I'm actually working right now on a setup through and LC1 that will allow me to input a 3 bar map sensor, to get boost per RPM, and true AFR. Trust me, if I can do anything, it's to help you and clark out, to make some sweet stuff.

Originally Posted by R.S. Enthalpy

I have a ton of these kinds of comparo dyno charts my customers have sent in after I did their ecus... but I don't post stuff like this.. it entices too much forum drama.

R.S. Enthalpy

I really have no clue why it didn't log your run past - I didn't even notice that. I'll dig back through tomorrow on my laptop (damn you dogfish head) to find a few logs from before.

If it comes down to it, I'll make matt throw in the tune and run it again

And yes, I can understand thd drama around this -- again I never would have imagined it, until my PM box blew up. F me.

(ps: manifold works awesome yet Thanks again Scott )

(pps: i just found two eprom chips in my desk drawer, I'll be mailing them back to you asap, as i didn't realize we even had them)

Originally Posted by g6civcx

codyace, your car sucks ass. I'll bring mine up and you can run me at your favourite short track.

I predict... double DNF!!!

Hahahah! SBC can never loooooooose!!!! Damn you and that short track stipulation, even my 4.6 FD can't pull ya hahah.

(If I do get down to VIR this year, you better bring your ass up )

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by codyace

Hahahah! SBC can never loooooooose!!!! Damn you and that short track stipulation, even my 4.6 FD can't pull ya hahah.

(If I do get down to VIR this year, you better bring your ass up )

Lucky for you I am running full street setup this year. I got sick of running ragged on a tin can.

Full 10-pt rollcage, full extra thick insulation, sub, amp, speakers. Everything.

I'm probably carrying an extra 300 pounds this season, but it's worth it since I'm using it as my DD now.

Power is the same so I'll be considerably slower than seasons past.

You may have a chance

[codyace]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

Lucky for you I am running full street setup this year. I got sick of running ragged on a tin can.

Full 10-pt rollcage, full extra thick insulation, sub, amp, speakers. Everything.

I'm probably carrying an extra 300 pounds this season, but it's worth it since I'm using it as my DD now.

Power is the same so I'll be considerably slower than seasons past.

You may have a chance

Are you telling me I need to buy a remote switch for my boost controller? hehe. I'll revert to "squirt and park" driving haha

I really would love a ride in a sorted (like your car) v8 track 240...anyone I've been in have been really unsorted/hacked. The FD's I've been in (granted awesome to start with) are always much more fun.

[g6civcx]

What is "sorted" vs. "unsorted/hacked"?

Most of the work I've done was drivetrain and chassis. The suspension geometry is pretty much stock other than coils.

I need better brakes and rubber so I'm hoping to get those this year.

[Ghost240]

wow i've never seen cody get vicious in a thread before haha. I like it.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

What is "sorted" vs. "unsorted/hacked"?

Most of the work I've done was drivetrain and chassis. The suspension geometry is pretty much stock other than coils.

I need better brakes and rubber so I'm hoping to get those this year.

Most of the 240 v8 cars I've been in barely run, and are poorly put together. I would assume yours is not haha.

Originally Posted by Ghost240

wow i've never seen cody get vicious in a thread before haha. I like it.

I really don't like getting caught up in forum bullshit, as it ultimately brings down the entire thread

[g6civcx]

Mine can run all day without overheating or blowing up if I drive it. I don't know about if other people drive it hardcore mad drift style.

[nissanfreak317]

Wowser, I started reading this thread to learn a bit more about ROM tunes and now i have a migraine the likes of which could only be caused by a truck running on 93 octane Shell V-Power gas. Seriously, 8 pages. I have never seen so much patience demonstrated on Zilvia towards any one member in a single thread. Anyways, i'm not even going to ask any of the questions i thought of while reading this. Haha, I'm going to bed but i'll probably pm codyace about some stuff later this week...

[codyace]

I tried my best to deal with him (as we all did) but sometimes you can't help everyone. Hopefully his short banning may wisen him up to how it works in reality.

Hope to see that PM soon


Again guys, this thread was supposed to be about how we have two great tuners producing ROM runes for us, that work very well out of the box. Not a single one of you should be hesitant to purchase either tune, because in reality, both work great. Sure we could have a crazy 'retune' battle, but the point is - not every car is the same. I mean, it's pretty obvious that a well setup car will make great power regardless of it being Enthalpy and or JWT. I mean jeepers, this car traps 120mph....that's proof in the pudding if you ask me...hell most 30r guys here with 'drag' cars have a hard time doing that...and here are two T2 guys doing it without issue.

RS Enthalpy, and JWT are two of the best things our community could have - there is no reason to have this 'debate' of what is better, as it's pretty freakin obvious that both will make awesome power. Sure you will always have examples of cars having seperate issues amongst both tunes, but the reality is, that 15 hp is 'nothing' between two dynos. Trap speeds are the true 'check' for speed, as you can't deny physics.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by codyace

Not a single one of you should be hesitant to purchase either tune, because in reality, both work great. Sure we could have a crazy 'retune' battle, but the point is - not every car is the same

Designing a fuel/timing map is not easy. Every single car is unique based on the combination of parts installed on the engine.

Even if you have the exact same setup, the application determines how much tuning needs to be done.

There is no "perfect" out of the box tune. Everything relies on the skills of the person doing the tuning.


Anyone who expects a plug-n-play tune at this level would be wise to learn how a basic ROM map works. There are literally infinite ways to tune a car.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

Designing a fuel/timing map is not easy. Every single car is unique based on the combination of parts installed on the engine.

Even if you have the exact same setup, the application determines how much tuning needs to be done.

There is no "perfect" out of the box tune. Everything relies on the skills of the person doing the tuning.


Anyone who expects a plug-n-play tune at this level would be wise to learn how a basic ROM map works. There are literally infinite ways to tune a car.

I certainly agree to the 'perfect' aspect of things but the point is, neither of these ROM tunes is going to be responsible for blowing the car up, and these power levels.

My point was, both will work well. Perfect? Probably not. Good enough? I'd say for sure. I mean in the grand scheme of things, if we start adding up all of the 'shortcuts' on a car, no body would even want to drive them

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by codyace

I certainly agree to the 'perfect' aspect of things but the point is, neither of these ROM tunes is going to be responsible for blowing the car up, and these power levels.

I didn't follow the argument, but if someone blames a ROM tune for blowing up the engine should blame the person doing the tuning.

If it's a DIYer attempting to install a base map, then it's completely your fault.

If it's an experienced tuner that blew the engine, then talk to them and see what went wrong.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

I didn't follow the argument, but if someone blames a ROM tune for blowing up the engine should blame the person doing the tuning.

If it's a DIYer attempting to install a base map, then it's completely your fault.

If it's an experienced tuner that blew the engine, then talk to them and see what went wrong.

I think we're agreeing hehe.

The thread got derailed by HemiCharger saying this D Jetro was best, even though it makes terrible power, and pings on anything but one brand of gas. All we tried to explain to him, is that a JWT or Enthalpy ECU for a car (and right mods) is better than a inexperienced tuner with a standalone.

[2fast4y0u]

easiest way to put it.
i know nothing, NOTHING about tuning. i have an afc that i can bring my afr's to the level they need to be. setting base timing and dialing things in is something i have just started learning in that last week.
if i had to do that from scratch, and install new sensor just to use something, i wouldnt do it.
i bought an aem ems and have had it for 3 years now and never installed it. bought a rom tune ecu and got to drive my car for the first time in 2 years...WORTH IT!!!

i have said it before and i will say it again, i have an Enthalpy rom tune and love it. i have dealt with JWT back in the day (about 5 years ago) and loved the service i got from them. honestly didnt even cross my mind when it came time to get my rom tune.
I also cant believe the service i have received from Enthalpy. Late night wrenchin on my car and my phone rings...Its Martin with enthalpy checking to see if i have it running yet. Dude is super cool, willing to help and KNOWS HIS SHIT!

just my $.02
kthanksbye

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by 2fast4y0u

easiest way to put it.
i know nothing, NOTHING about tuning. i have an afc that i can bring my afr's to the level they need to be. setting base timing and dialing things in is something i have just started learning in that last week.
if i had to do that from scratch, and install new sensor just to use something, i wouldnt do it.
i bought an aem ems and have had it for 3 years now and never installed it. bought a rom tune ecu and got to drive my car for the first time in 2 years...WORTH IT!!!

i have said it before and i will say it again, i have an Enthalpy rom tune and love it. i have dealt with JWT back in the day (about 5 years ago) and loved the service i got from them. honestly didnt even cross my mind when it came time to get my rom tune.
I also cant believe the service i have received from Enthalpy. Late night wrenchin on my car and my phone rings...Its Martin with enthalpy checking to see if i have it running yet. Dude is super cool, willing to help and KNOWS HIS SHIT!

just my $.02
kthanksbye

Imagine if you knew what the hell you were doing! You could input the Enthalpy or JWT tune into the Standalone and then make some corrections to make things even better and get ever better gas mileage.

[2fast4y0u]

yeah no shit right...some day, some day.

im in no hurry to tackle that yet. im just happy my car runs and runs decent.
although, un-related topic but figure i would share....
i took it to the strip the other night. car had some issues, but no excuses here. its mainly driver failure.
my best time was 14.225 at 101.98 mph
did my burn out, used my launch controller. hooked leaving the line, but no more the 60ft out, tires just light up..get out of the fuel, get back in it and play catch up to everyone. next race is July 2nd so i have some time to learn to drag my car.

let the flaming begin..