just got strut bars

[YellwMonky]

I just bought and installed pilot front and back strut bars and they made my car feel more solid. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/lookaround.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':look:'> NOw that i've done that I'm looking into getting some more suspension mods. Looking around, i've found some whiteline sway bars for a pretty good price. I'm just wondering if its a good idea to have both sway bars and strut bars. Will it make the car feel a lot better or will it be TOO stiff. What are the reasons behind having both or having one or the other?

[adey]

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> &nbsp;I don't think it's possible for our cars' chassis to be "too stiff". We're constantly trying to find stuff to make it stiffer!
Anti-roll bars (aka sway bars, anti-sway bars) help keep both wheels on each axle planted on the ground. Putting a fat front Sway bar will help keep both fronts on the ground, and a fat rear sway bar will help keep the rears on the ground.
That said, big fronts will increase understeer, and big rear sways will increase oversteer.
I would personally have gone for Sway bars wayyyy before I dished money out for STBs.. I just can't see STBs doing that much.
One interesting note though, is that when you go through a dip at an angle, the sway bar can actually 'pull' one wheel off the ground! (the one that would otherwise be at the bottom of the dip) -- that's a sight to see. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> &nbsp;

Cliff's notes:
They won't be too stiff, get them!

[mrdirty]

A too rigid sway bar will make the independent suspension more like unified; not a problem for smooth roads...

The intent of the sway bar is to reduce body roll and, as a result, keep contact patch pressure more even and increasing your traction in corners.

A nice stiff sway bar feels GREAT.

[adey]

speaking of swaybars, does anyone think our stock front swaybars are pretty BEEFY other than me? I don't feel the need to swap them anymore.

Also, does anyone know what the size of the Whiteline FIXED rear sway bars is? To anyone who's running it -- how is it compared to stock? Some free advertising for PDM ... but they have a GREAT deal on these right now! $90 for the rear non-adjustable... it doesn't get much better than that!

[LanceS13]

You can have too stiff of a sway bar. &nbsp;I'm still trying to tune my Whiteline bars. &nbsp;They're too stiff at medium front/stiff rear. &nbsp;I'm putting them both on soft for the next autox. &nbsp;And if it pushes at that setting, I'm gonna modify the endlink for a still softer setting on the front. &nbsp;
The reason they're too stiff is b/c if I had slightly stickier tires, I'd lift a wheel...mainly the inside rear--not good for accelerating out of the corner with an open diff. &nbsp;
The suspension is properly stiffened for steady state corners by increasing the spring rates...sway bars are kinda like fine-tuning for the spring rates. &nbsp;I know a few race cars that have perfect (and stiff) spring rates that don't run sways at all. &nbsp;Basically you want the softest sway bar setting you can get away with while having a neutral ride. &nbsp;You definitely don't want them to the point where the inside tire has no weight on it and the outside tire is overloaded.

[mrdirty]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LanceS13 @ Oct. 02 2002,11:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can have too stiff of a sway bar. I'm still trying to tune my Whiteline bars. They're too stiff at medium front/stiff rear. I'm putting them both on soft for the next autox. And if it pushes at that setting, I'm gonna modify the endlink for a still softer setting on the front.
The reason they're too stiff is b/c if I had slightly stickier tires, I'd lift a wheel...mainly the inside rear--not good for accelerating out of the corner with an open diff.
The suspension is properly stiffened for steady state corners by increasing the spring rates...sway bars are kinda like fine-tuning for the spring rates. I know a few race cars that have perfect (and stiff) spring rates that don't run sways at all. Basically you want the softest sway bar setting you can get away with while having a neutral ride. You definitely don't want them to the point where the inside tire has no weight on it and the outside tire is overloaded.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
True, there are a bunch of race engineers who feel that the sway bar is a cheap way of fixing a poorly designed suspension system.

[Orgazmo]

Is it important for me to get a quality strut bar? Or having any type of strut bar is ok? (i.e: Getting a cheap product from E-Bay or things like that)

i'm new in this so please bear with me.. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''>

[YellwMonky]

I don't think it really matters all too much. I went with the "cheaper" strut bars. I got Pilot front and rear strutbars on my s13 for 80 dollars shipped. It was well worth the 80 bucks. car feels much tighter and solid around turns. I highly recommend it.

[gschroeder78]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (adey @ Oct. 02 2002,03:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One interesting note though, is that when you go through a dip at an angle, the sway bar can actually 'pull' one wheel off the ground! (the one that would otherwise be at the bottom of the dip) -- that's a sight to see. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Went to an autoX last weekend at Coors Field in Denver and the BMW's consistantly picked one wheel up around a couple turns. Definitly sweet but I'd assume one less wheel on the ground means less traction.

[Orgazmo]

YellowMonkey, can you tell me where did you get those parts?

[mrdirty]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Orgazmo @ Oct. 03 2002,12:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is it important for me to get a quality strut bar? Or having any type of strut bar is ok? (i.e: Getting a cheap product from E-Bay or things like that)

i'm new in this so please bear with me.. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
www.procarparts.com
has the cheapest bars for the 240....
bastards won't take visa though...

[adey]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (gschroeder78 @ Oct. 03 2002,12:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Went to an autoX last weekend at Coors Field in Denver and the BMW's consistantly picked one wheel up around a couple turns. Definitly sweet but I'd assume one less wheel on the ground means less traction.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
no, no... that happens too, but that's because their suspension isn't tuned properly, their anti-sway bar isn't big enough, or just because they're driving the thing so hard that the anti-sway bar's maxed out.
Someone earlier didn't understand me properly, either.
What I'm talking about is entering and exiting a driveway where there's a dip... you drive up it at an angle, and when the one wheel gets up onto the driveway, the second (front) wheel is lifted off the ground thanks to the short suspension and anti-roll bar... in fact, I've seen photos of a car with 2 wheels in the air- one front and one rear (diagonally from each other) that lifted because of both front and rear anti-sway bars being really stiff. Did that make more sense?

[YellwMonky]

Right Here. 80 bucks shipped.

[HippoSleek]

Hmm... a 240 lifting a rear wheel? &nbsp;That shouldn't happen for several reasons. &nbsp;

A fwd car shouldn't do a "pissing dog" and lift the rear. &nbsp;Actually, in hard driving, most rwd cars will lift a front, if anything. &nbsp;If you are having rear lift problems you either have way too much rear sway bar, not nearly enough front spring rate, or you are going into the corners too fast. &nbsp;My old Civic lifted in autox (and driveways) just b/c of the spring rate - but that was only when I was unloading weight due to turning and braking.

If you are braking into the corners, the weight distribution will be as below:
W &nbsp; &nbsp;W

W &nbsp; &nbsp;w

But this isn't a good thing for a rwd car. &nbsp;While okay for fwd b/c you then have all the weight over the drive wheels and virtually no weight on the back - which helps the car rotate. &nbsp;Thus, even though it is slower than power on oversteer, it allows the car to get around the corner. &nbsp;

But rwd you should be able to do some steering w/ the throttle. &nbsp; Meaning shortly after turn-in, you should be on the gas both for exit speed and additional rotation. &nbsp;That shifts the weight to the rear/drive wheels at the expensive of the inside front:
W &nbsp; &nbsp;w

W &nbsp; &nbsp;W

You see this pretty regularly on IT level race cars and especially on Porsches.

I guess this is the long way of saying if you are lifting the rear in a 240, you need more front bar/less rear bar or way more spring rate. &nbsp;

Lance - you need more springs. &nbsp;IIRC, you are running pro-kits, no? &nbsp;I think your fronts must be maxing out and overloading the outside front tire.

adey - I would replace both with adjustable units if you are serious and/or can afford it. &nbsp;There's a lot to be said about balance - and without the ability to tune the front sway on a rwd car, you are asking for a hard to sort car. &nbsp;My friend's Civic will lift two if you hit a driveway at the right angle (high rate springs and big ass bars).

gschrod - yup. &nbsp;One wheel means less traction, but you've got to keep the alternative in mind. &nbsp;In exchange for losing that wheel, the car is gaining traction at the others. &nbsp;As long as the tires don't become overloaded and reach the slip angle, it is fine.

Others - skimping on STB's is fine, but pay the money for a sway bar. &nbsp;It is one of THE most important handling peices on the car!

[LanceS13]

Yup...I've said it before. &nbsp;ProKits are too soft for what I ask of them. &nbsp;I think the bars control roll more than the springs do...which is really non-ideal. &nbsp;That's the main reason I got my eyes on a set of JIC FLT-A2's. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/satisfied.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':satisfied:'>
This only happens on tight turns over 90 degrees...especially 180 degree turns...under braking/turn-in, before throttle is applied. &nbsp;But because the inside rear is so unloaded, I have to wait longer to apply the throttle or the inside tire just lights up, the outside front gets overloaded, and I push horribly. &nbsp;It doesn't actually lift a wheel, but I've seen a couple of pictures of my car under these circumstances where the inside rear contact patch is visibly half that of the outside. &nbsp;At the moment, left foot braking offers less advantage than before...partly b/c of this handling characteristic and partly b/c I have Hawk HPS on the front and AutoZone pads on the rear (i.e. &nbsp;The fronts lose traction instead of the rears when trying to rotate the car with the brakes...my brake bias is too much to the front.) &nbsp;Basically, I can't drive the car into a tight corner as hard as I used to before the pads and front bar...but I suppose better rear pads, stiffer springs, and more bar tuning will have me good as gold...and broke as hell. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'>