Lets talk about engine swaps...

[240Dave]

People do a lot of crazy things to make their cars go faster, but the most popular setups are, without a doubt, the turbo ka and the (in)famous sr swap. But why aren’t other swaps more popular than they currently are? Is it the price that scares people away or just the fact that it's something new and requires (gasp) custom work? Maybe people just don’t know about the options.

You might say that with 400+ hp ka+t’s with equal torque and high strung sr20’s running 400hp on their stock bottom end, why do anything else?

Well, for those who want more power than a 4cyl can reasonably provide or simply just want a unique swap or different feel, let’s consider some other swap options.

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I've been doing some research on a few different swap options and thought I would post what I was able to find. Maybe stir up some good discussion...

302 5.0L V8
engine/tranny/ecu: $800
Driveshaft: $500
Exhaust: $500
Engine and transmission mounts: $1000 (A guess, paid labor)
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225hp/300tq
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Total: $3300

Good:
*Gobs of torque
*Dirt cheap parts both replacement and aftermarket
*Engine has great proven potential both N/A and FI
*V layout and pushrod cam style allows for low CG helping weight distribution
*After some aluminum aftermarket parts engine weighs the same as stock ka (still a ~25lb weight gain from transmission though, but transmissions are low and in the middle of the car so effects are minimal)
*Stock differential can be used to about 400tq give or take

Bad:
*More custom work than other swaps because kits are not yet available
*Stock (iron heads and accessories) adds a total of ~105lbs to the car (~25 of which is the extra transmission weight though). Then a little more weight on top of that given the larger exhaust system (2 headers, 2 exhaust pipes)


350 Ls1 v8
Engine/tranny/ecu: $???
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???hp/???tq
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Total: $???

Good:
*FAST, damn they are fast
*All the same goodness of the 302 as far as parts but much faster
*A great choice for drag racing

Bad:
*More expensive and heavier than the 302
*Comes all aluminum so there’s not really any place you can drop weight from like you can with the 302
*I didn’t do a whole lot of research on this one because of its weight I dismissed it rather quickly


RB20det 2L I6
Full clip: $2250 + s&h
Exhaust: $500
Engine and transmission mount kit including driveshaft: $1150
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220hp/195tq
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Total: $3900

Good:
*Easy install thanks to mounting kits including a pre-made driveshaft
*Growing aftermarket support in the USA

Bad:
*Not very much power stock compared to other swaps
* Is a long engine, putting even more weight in front of the shock towers which is bad for weight distribution
*Overall engine weight is around 60lbs more than a non-turbo ka (roughly 35lbs more than a turbo ka though…not a very significant difference really but positioning is the main problem)


rb25det 2.5L I6
Full clip: $3250 + s&h
Exhaust: $500
Driveshaft: $500
Engine and transmission mounts: $600
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250hp/220tq
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Total: $4850

Good:
*Easy install thanks to mounting kits including a pre-made driveshaft
*Great power and torque stock with plenty of potential
*Growing aftermarket support in the USA

Bad:
*A little expensive, but not too bad
* It is a long engine, putting even more weight in front of the shock towers which is bad for weight distribution
*Overall engine weight is around 60lbs more than a non-turbo ka (roughly 35lbs more than a turbo ka though…not a very significant difference really but positioning is the main problem)

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Here are some quick prices on sr’s and ka+t. The ka turbo is a hard one since there are so many options so I used a basic turbo kit to compare.


Redtop sr20det 2.0L I4
Complete engine: $2500 + s&h
Exhaust: $500
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205hp/205tq
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Total: $3000

Good:
*Very easy swap
*Great potential
*Large and rapidly growing aftermarket support

Bad:
*Not very much HP stock for the money


S14 sr20det 2.0L I4
Complete engine: $3600 + s&h
Exhaust: $500
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220hp/205tq
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Total: $4100

Good:
*Easy swap
*Not too expensive for the power you get
*Great aftermarket support and growing
*Often less mileage than redtop

Bad:
*Variable valve timing is a common complaint when going for big power


S15 sr20det 2.0L I4
Complete engine: $5500 + s&h
Exhaust: $500
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250hp/???tq
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Total: $6000

Good:
*Very fast stock
*Usually have very few miles

Bad:
*Very expensive for what you get
*Variable valve timing is a common complaint when going for big power


KA24de+t 2.4L I4
Engine: $0.00
Turbo kit: $3000
Exhaust: $500
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~300hp/~300tq
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Total: $3500

Good:
*Easy to do, you don’t even have to remove the engine
*Good torque and horsepower for the money (can be done cheaper too)

Bad:
*I can’t think of anything bad to say other than a lot of people blow them up…I don’t have enough data to really comment on any reliability issues that may exist though.

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I looked into the 2jz but the engine alone was nearly $5000 so I decided to stop there, feel free to continue research on that your self. If you do, please add anything you find to the thread. Really one monster of an engine….
Not sure about the 1jz, I haven’t done any research.


I realize that in the real world, these prices WILL be higher, but I assumed no problems and nothing extra to make a fair comparison.


I didn’t figure shipping into any prices, it just added a level of complexity that I didn’t care to deal with. The v8 is the only one you can just pick up at a junkyard, so assume a couple hundred or so for shipping on the rest unless you’re near a shop that sells whatever engine you are looking to get. You should really see your engine before you buy anyway, so maybe no shipping on anything. That’s why I left it out of the numbers above.

I added an upgraded exhaust to every swap for a more even comparison. Some swaps require a custom exhaust while others (like the sr and ka for example) do not.

No swap listed requires any modification to the car itself that I’m aware of, other than mounts.

Whenever you swap a larger engine into your car or add a big turbo and innercooler, you change the weight distribution and upset the cars handling. Some swaps will change the weight distribution more than others, the I6’s especially since they are the longest and add most of their weight in front of the shock towers. The Ls1 adds the most weight of any swap. Overall weight, height and length are all factors in how it will affect your cars feel and performance.

However large or small the handling difference may be, the easiest way to shift the weight a bit is to relocate your battery to the back. Since a car battery weighs 25-40lbs it’s the batteries weight less in the front and the batteries weight more in the rear for a total 50-80lb difference. If you want to balance the car out even more, a carbon fiber hood is another option, though not as cheap as battery relocation.
Anything left can be tuned out with suspension work.

Chassis strengthening should always be taken into consideration when building a high hp/tq car…especially with one of the v8 options given their torque.

Please keep safety in mind, upgrading brakes and wheels/tires to handle your new power. You may even want to consider a simple 4pt roll bar. Upgrading the driver with some driving schools is always a great idea too.


Sources:
http://www.google.com
http://240skyline.nissanpower.com/
http://www.mckinneymotorsports.com/
http://www.hybridz.org/
http://forums.stangnet.com/index.php
http://www.freshalloy.com
http://www.zilvia.net
http://www.srswap.com
http://www.unstable-hybrids.com
http://www.limecreekmotorsports.com/project240SS.htm
*not a complete list*

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Well, after all that I’ve decided on the 302 v8. The goal is to make around 400rwhp N/A while maintaining stock or better handling. Eventually I’d like to go even higher, adding individual throttle bodies like this setup.
http://totalcontrolproducts.com/lino.../engine-i2.jpg
But that is a long way off. For now I’m just going to do a basic rebuild with a couple power adders here and there and get it in around 275hp or so.

There really is no BEST setup though. I didn’t pick the 302 because I thought it was the best swap available, but rather because I felt it was the best for me and what I want my car to be.

Have fun, and please chime in with any questions, opinions, additional data or (god forbid) corrections, hehe

[Fibercus]

My uncle has been trying to convince me to drop in an LS1 into an s14 chassi. He can get a complete setup for around 5K, barand new from the factory. Last one he had sat in his kitchen for about 6 months before he droped it in his sand rail... put down 450 to the wheels bone stock. Thats one bad son of a gun around 300 lbs

[240Dave]

Originally posted by Fibercus
My uncle has been trying to convince me to drop in an LS1 into an s14 chassi. He can get a complete setup for around 5K, barand new from the factory. Last one he had sat in his kitchen for about 6 months before he droped it in his sand rail... put down 450 to the wheels bone stock. Thats one bad son of a gun around 300 lbs

Not a bad price...do it!

Hrm, my info says 500lbs w/out tranny...

[Fibercus]

I have to check the factory weight, his weight is setup for the rail... but it should be light, all alluminum, even the oil pan

[240Dave]

Well I can't find it, but I know I read somewhere that the ls1 weighs ~500lbs w/out tranny. Also, they are supposed to run 405hp at the crank stock in 2002 and a wimpy (heh) 345 crank hp just back in 1999...must have had something done to it to run 450 at whe wheels...unless the 2003's are up to 475 crank hp or something...
Either way, badass engine.

If it weighed over 100lbs less than the ka, I'd do an ls1 swap tomorrow

[Joel 180]

LS1's are nasty beasts. Add some induction and exhaust with a bit of chip tuning and you have yourself a touring car engine.
The commodores over here run them and if the commodore wasnt so heavy they would be very fast!

[Run152]

Now this is still on the general assumption that the cars won't be passed by a ref? I know it's impossilbe with JDM stuff, but what about the Chevy stuff?

[240Dave]

I don't think 1 single swap I mentioned is legal anywhere. It is possible to make the ls1 and 2jz legal enough maybe the 302 also depending on the year you buy and the year of your car, since they passes smog stock, just drop it in stock. And as long as it is the same year or newer as your car, your golden. I can see no reason why it would be illegal anywhere in the US...but I don't claim to know all laws for all states. None of the rb's or sr's will ever be legal. ka+t is legal in most places as far as I know, but won't likely pass emissions testing in states that do that.

[DuffMan]

toyota and ford engines wont be legal, you cant swap across different manufacturers legally. Exceptions are made for older cars and kit cars, but pretty much everything is legal with those anyways.

I like the SR20 because it gets the best gas milage

[Run152]

Oh yeah, speed equals smog, but since my car is a 90 I think I have a good shot at ref-ing an LS1. What's this about kits though? It sounds almost too good to be true.....

[240Dave]

http://www.mckinneymotorsports.com/ sells RB mount kits.

Currently, nobody makes a kit for a v8 swap.

Thanks for the info duffman, I didn't know that. Oh well, $30 a year and I'm "legal"

[fantasya98]

you've got some really good points, still not gonna stop me from puttin in my sr though but it did make me think..

[the head]

Vg30 swaps
and i heard rumors of a VQ45 swap and a guy on freshalloy that knew someone at Norwood designs putting a Ferrari 308 GTS race motor in an s14

[Travis240]

I would LOVE to see some VG, VQ, VH, and VK swaps...with the release of the M45 there is a manual tranny coupled to a VK...340 hp...titanium valves....add intake and exhaust make 350 to the wheels...with Torque! With the parts compatibility of our cars, I wonder whether anyone has test fit crossmembers from a Q45,J30..300ZX even...maybe we could figure out another bolt in swap.How cool would that be!

[kapower]

How about a VQ35 (350z, maxima, altima) They come in a few diffent hp. & tq. #'s, but they are all pretty damn quick, & produce a good amount of tourqe. they are all aluminium, and a V-design, so the CG would be decent. Install a twin turbo setup/ supercharger or build it up an na motor with cams, computer tuning, & other bolt on's. I have always thought that would be a good conversion, & not to mention uniuqe. There is always the vq45 out of a q45 or m45, probably an expensive engine but hey, 340hp. The LS1 conversion has already been done, it has to be fast in a straight line but, how well would it corner with all of the extra wieght in the worst spot possible. (up front) I have an idea!!! A transversly mounted vq35 in the hatch area, you can't go wrong with a mid mounted engine, now that would be a fun conversion!

[Fibercus]

Originally posted by 240Dave
Well I can't find it, but I know I read somewhere that the ls1 weighs ~500lbs w/out tranny. Also, they are supposed to run 405hp at the crank stock in 2002 and a wimpy (heh) 345 crank hp just back in 1999...must have had something done to it to run 450 at whe wheels...unless the 2003's are up to 475 crank hp or something...
Either way, badass engine.

If it weighed over 100lbs less than the ka, I'd do an ls1 swap tomorrow

Bone stock LS1 with 450 to the wheels, dyno'd at a socal rail tuners... Gotta remember this is in a sand rail

[curbsurfer]

if you want v8 power, sell your 240's and buy a camaro/mustang. your $3000 motor swap will buy you a mustang with 5.0 to build up

if you have a v8 engine in your kitchen...you are a redneck

90 model or not, a referree wont pass a non manufacturer engine in your car. besides kit cars or the like.

[240Dave]

Originally posted by curbsurfer
if you want v8 power, sell your 240's and buy a camaro/mustang. your $3000 motor swap will buy you a mustang with 5.0 to build up

if you have a v8 engine in your kitchen...you are a redneck

90 model or not, a referree wont pass a non manufacturer engine in your car. besides kit cars or the like.

Thank you for your ignorant post now go away.

[russian]

Originally posted by curbsurfer

if you have a v8 engine in your kitchen...you are a redneck
.

damn straight buba! we aint cookin chicken **** on that oven.

[240sxtreme]

if you want v8 power, sell your 240's and buy a camaro/mustang. your $3000 motor swap will buy you a mustang with 5.0 to build up

if you have a v8 engine in your kitchen...you are a redneck

See now these posts make online forums so fun. lol

I suppose Nissan is redneck then, cause they use a V8 for Indy racing. (also similar to the Q45 engine)....damn...buy a luxury car and you end up a redneck

not only is this not news, you can read about it here ===> nissan V8

[curbsurfer]

i didnt say that having a v8 was redneck, i said having a v8 in you kitchen, where you cook and eat food, was redneck. i have no problems with v8's. i have owned and worked on v8's longer than anything else.

and, how is my post ignorant? please, you wanna talk v8s, go to ls1 forums or something. you will get much more info there

[curbsurfer]

damn 240dave, you are the ignorant one the more i think about it. you didnt even add a 1jz or ca18det swap which has been done before and talked about on these very own forums.

after you put that 5.0 in, you should get a mustang gt body kit and headlight conversion. that would be so usdm...tyte!

[brianglawson]

well the japanese ones are my fav. of course
but i didnt know about a law you cant swap between manufactures
i do know that its a law you have to put a motor the same year or newer into your car so an lt1 could work if that the case
but here we go


a 350 will accept if you will power upgrades better than a 302, plus parts are plentiful for them, but they do weigh more and personally a chevy tranny is awful in my opinion

a 302 has a good aftermarket but not as good as the 350 but it is lighter and you can get a getrag gearbock in 5 or 6 speed, the disributor might have to be moved(i think) also it is smaller and quicker reving

but what i am wondering is if an american tranny would fit in the tunnel decently? personally i would take a 302 if you want to have a v8 but i would go sr20 over all

sr20 aftermarket abundance and they are made for a 240 gas mileage
revs because a lighter car benifits from a quicker reving motor not to mention the technology involved in an sr20 compared to 50 yearold "born again motors"

but thats just my 2 cents
Brian

[brianglawson]

p.s. why not get a 5.6 litre from a new nissan titan truck with 379 torque that would be fun(dreams dreams dreams)

[russian]

and fit it into rwd shopping cart.

[Fibercus]

Originally posted by curbsurfer
if you have a v8 engine in your kitchen...you are a redneck

I know your just jealous Who with a V8 isnt a redneck lol!

[DudeYourSoOOJDM]

Hey...I have a V8 in my Kitchen!.....right next to my edelbrock intake manifold and my pushrods and my Holley fow bawwel cahbraaata.

Pipe dreams are getting old....get off your ____ and go do it.

[andrave]

my brother has a spare 460 block laying around, maybe I'll do a dual high rise 4bbl carb set up through the hood and drop that bitch in mine. Would only add like what, 800 lbs to my front end (iron block).
But **** you are talking about 400 ft lbs at 2000 rpm.

[240Dave]

Originally posted by curbsurfer
damn 240dave, you are the ignorant one the more i think about it. you didnt even add a 1jz or ca18det swap which has been done before and talked about on these very own forums.

after you put that 5.0 in, you should get a mustang gt body kit and headlight conversion. that would be so usdm...tyte!

I actually just ran out of energy before saying anything about the ca.
I did mention the 1jz just after the 2jz, but again, got tired of writing. I left out the rb26 as well. But that shouldn't matter…I never claimed to have made a complete list of every possible swap for our cars.

What I felt was ignorant about your post was
"if you want v8 power, sell your 240's and buy a camaro/mustang."

I guess anybody doing an rb swap should just buy a skyline and anybody doing a 2jz swap should just get a supra huh? I don't know about you, buy I don't buy a car just for its engine.

240's are fun cars, decent suspension design, lightweight and what seems to be a fairly solid chassis. The engine pretty much sucks stock, so all I was trying to do was look at our options. Everything I've ready shows me that I want a v8, someone else may want an sr, someone else may want a 1jz...

My intent was never to convince anybody of one or another, just trying to look at some options and get people talking/thinking. You don't seem too interested in a domestic swap into an import car and made a pretty lame comment. If you have something to add, I'd love to hear it. I really don't know much but at least I'm open-minded.


PS: after reading something again, I saw that the stock fuel pump can't deliver enough fuel to run a v8, so add whatever one of those costs to the total for the v8 swaps. Anybody know if the stock fuel pump can supply enough fuel for one of the 6cyl swaps?

Edit: spelling and clarification

[curbsurfer]

actually, i speak of these swaps from experience, not of ignorance.

ive installed a 350 chevy with 400hp into my 71 240z back in 95'
that car was fast and fun. i also would barely stop, had too much understeer , and horrible gas mileage. it basically killed a great car. so i speak from experience

i have done numerous other engine swaps since then:
countless honda swaps
5 sr swaps in 240's
2jz into mkiii supra
1jz into 240sx (in progress)
ca18det into ae86 (in progress)
4agze into ae86

so if you want to put an overweight, gas guzzling, hot running v8 that was designed before you wer born, then by all means do it. i was just saying to save some money and headache by buying a car that already has a v8 in it stock. at least you will save some money that way.