Uniform Tire Size on Staggerd Wheels

[AuburnRyan]

I've got 17*7 and 17*8 Volk wheels and am currently buying tires. I notice most with staggered wheels also stagger the tire size using wider rears.

I'm planning on using 225/45/17 all around, which means the front should stick to the pavement a little better and the rear should be more responsive (less bulge on sidewall), qualities which should balance the car (produce less understeer), right?

Any issues I haven't thought of? Anything wrong with my plans.

FYI - It's '91 a daily driver s13 and tires will be, Bridgestone S03's or Pilot Sports (am still kicking around the idea of Azenzis Sports but they'll have less wet traction). I'm still KA so any of these should offer more than enough grip, and I can change the rears for drift if desired.

Thanks for input/opinions!

[andrave]

not really, I bet you won't notice a difference if you went up a little bit in the rears.

[Bbandit]

225 fits perfectly on my 16x8. not stretched or anything.
but 225 on 7s... hmm.. the tire will prolly bulged out a little bit.

[ch1873857]

ive got the same setup your thinking. 17x7, 17x8. 225/45/17 all around. i bought my wheels and tires at the same time but 5zigen sent a staggered setup instead. the tires are toyo proxes 4. theres no bulge in the front whatsoever, perfectly flush, the rear have very slight stretch to them so they could use a 235 and that would be perfect, ive got pics if you need them

[sykikchimp]

stretching the tire actually increases the width of the contact patch slightly. I highly recommend running the same tire size all around..

[orange-grey]

I have the same size wheels. I started out with 215/45 front and 235/40 rear, but that created some understeer and they bulged a little bit all around. Next I went with 215/45 front and back which gave me a tiny stretch in back and really helped with balance. Now I'm running 205/45 all around. The front tires are perfectly square, and there is a pretty decent stretch in back so it feels great on breakaway. The shorter sidewall helps response and gearing as well.

[ch1873857]

i was thinking about doing that setup(205 all around) but i thought it might look wierd with stretched rear and flush front. and i didnt know how much stretch it would give and how much and if any traction i would lose

[HaLo]

I have 17x7 and 17x8 and i run 225/45 in front and 245/40 and rear and the tires don't really buldge...

As for my track wheels, I am running 225/50 and 245/45 on 16x7 and 16x8 rims... but A032R buldge a little more.

[old_s13]

you have 17's, this means you have the luxury of going with a very wide rear tire (255 or so). Personally, I would stagger stance.. who cares if you have more tendancy to understeer.. its worth it if you're running quality tires (s03s are top flight). I'de run 225 or so in front, and 255 or so in rear.

There's no sense in running 225 in the back, for what reason? You're not gonna rotate. When maximum traction is your goal, over or under steer isnt really such a big deal.. its just a handling characteristic. Besides, all that can be changed with your suspension setup (adjustable shocks, coilovers, etc)

- Mike

[orange-grey]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Balance is ALWAYS important. Much more important than maximum grip. Having a car that pushes wide sucks. Period. He didn't say what motor, but if he's on a stockish KA then 255s in back is just silly. It's going to take a lot more than a few clicks on the shocks to rebalance the car.

[S14DriftR]

I run staggered 5zigens with uniform tires as my back up wheels, 17x7.5 and 17x8. I use 205/40/17 on all 4. Im pretty happy with them, but i dont use them for grip driving.

[kidinthehall]

Originally Posted by old_s13

you have 17's, this means you have the luxury of going with a very wide rear tire (255 or so). Personally, I would stagger stance.. who cares if you have more tendancy to understeer.. its worth it if you're running quality tires (s03s are top flight). I'de run 225 or so in front, and 255 or so in rear.

There's no sense in running 225 in the back, for what reason? You're not gonna rotate. When maximum traction is your goal, over or under steer isnt really such a big deal.. its just a handling characteristic. Besides, all that can be changed with your suspension setup (adjustable shocks, coilovers, etc)

- Mike

That was the biggest bunch of misguided fucked up information ive read today.

[orange-grey]

Originally Posted by old_s13

who cares if you have more tendancy to understeer.
When maximum traction is your goal, over or under steer isnt really such a big deal.. its just a handling characteristic. - Mike

You want quotes? You got it. I don't see how this could be interpreted as anything but a total dismissal of the importance of neutral handling car. You're right, this is a forum and you have the right to post whatever you want. But when you post blatent BS and offer it as sound advice you're going to get called on it. If you're personal experience is that understeer doesn't matter maybe you need more personal experience.

[old_s13]

Originally Posted by orange-grey

You want quotes? You got it. I don't see how this could be interpreted as anything but a total dismissal of the importance of neutral handling car. You're right, this is a forum and you have the right to post whatever you want. But when you post blatent BS and offer it as sound advice you're going to get called on it. If you're personal experience is that understeer doesn't matter maybe you need more personal experience.

yes you're right, i'm going to uninstall my massively wide and sticky tires so that i can oversteer -- thats much more advantageous.

fortunately for me, my personal experience involves racing against cars that cost six digits and seeing them in my rearview mirror. is that bragging? nope, its called reality.

ps: this has nothing to do with ego, i just hate hearing people speak as if THEIR way is the ONLY way. like i said, so many different ways to setup your car.. and it all depends on how you drive and where you drive. stop speaking like you're suggestions are the ONLY methods to attaining a nice handling car, drift king.

[orange-grey]

You still don't get it. I am not talking about drifting. I am not talking about massive oversteer. I'm talking about making a car neutral, which is a very important goal in any type of motorsport involving corners. It's also independant of ultimate grip level, so putting skinnier tires on your car isn't going to affect balance, only grip. Two seperate things. Staggered tires DO affect balance negatively and don't increase ultimate grip unless you have the power to take advantage of it. This isn't something I made up, it's simple vehicle dynamics. Increasing understeer doesn't "work" for anybody, and unless you drive like an 85 year old woman it is something to be avoided at all costs.

[old_s13]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Balance is ALWAYS important. Much more important than maximum grip. Having a car that pushes wide sucks. Period. He didn't say what motor, but if he's on a stockish KA then 255s in back is just silly. It's going to take a lot more than a few clicks on the shocks to rebalance the car.

if you arent concerned with "drifting, yo" why does it matter how a car is going to perform when being pushed at the absolute limit? basically, you guys want a car that will completely oversteer when you're in the canyon -- or, do you want something that actually has traction. i dont know how you guys drive, but i still managed to break 225's with my SOHC KA.


That was the biggest bunch of misguided fucked up information ive read today.

suck the dillznack.

[AKADriver]

Originally Posted by old_s13

if you arent concerned with "drifting, yo" why does it matter how a car is going to perform when being pushed at the absolute limit? basically, you guys want a car that will completely oversteer when you're in the canyon -- or, do you want something that actually has traction. i dont know how you guys drive, but i still managed to break 225's with my SOHC KA.

More grip is always good, but if you're involved with ANY sort of motorsports that involve corners, balance at the limit is just as important.

At least with the stock suspension, 205s have enough grip for ANYTHING you can do on the street (that isn't stupid) with a KA. If you're talking about wide wheels and 255 tires.. well, you're right, you'll probably never break them loose. But on any sort of track - autocross, road course, pick your poison - you're just going to slide the 225s you have up front and understeer, unless the suspension is worked to compensate. You'll end up slower than running 225s all around because you'll still be limited by the grip of the front tires and the car will be harder to control.

Of course, there's no reason the suspension can't be worked to compensate. Stagger isn't a bad thing in itself... if you have a whole lot of power it'll make everything that much more controllable.

Like everything else... it depends on your goals. Just like picking a turbocharger (response versus power), you choose balance or maximum grip.

If the car is never going to leave the street, stagger it, it won't hurt.

[old_s13]

when you're foot is mashing the gas often times you can forget about what the front tires are. if you play with various types of quality tires, you'll notice that size doesnt always matter -- compound does. i've ran 245's that grip less than 225's. sidewall stiffness also matters. so, might as well try before you straight up say on a forum "this WILL work" or "this WONT work" etc etc.

i run 245/45/16 front and rear and the car is very neutral. go too fast into a turn and you CAN understeer depending on the balance of the car (and type of turn). go fast and mash the gas and of course, oversteer.

i just think its funny when people talk as if they are the drift king and as if they are going to drive "drift" on the streets. i mean, anyone who drives balls out on the canyon will understand that balance and grip are most importnat, and that specs dont always equate. so, the driver has to be in-tune with the car and know how to control their vehicle. ive raced plenty of cars that LOOK cool but hey, how cool do they look when they're in my rear view mirror. drifting isnt so cool when the person just got their ass handed to them.

- mike

[orange-grey]

Wait, I'm confused. First balance isn't important, but now it is? Why are you bragging about how neutral your car is with non-staggered tires and proving my point for me? Who said anything about drifting? Trying to make your car rotate nicely doesn't make you a drifter. I've been autocrossing for years. You need to pick an argument and stick to it.

[kidinthehall]

Originally Posted by old_s13

when you're foot is mashing the gas often times you can forget about what the front tires are. if you play with various types of quality tires, you'll notice that size doesnt always matter -- compound does. i've ran 245's that grip less than 225's. sidewall stiffness also matters. so, might as well try before you straight up say on a forum "this WILL work" or "this WONT work" etc etc.

i run 245/45/16 front and rear and the car is very neutral. go too fast into a turn and you CAN understeer depending on the balance of the car (and type of turn). go fast and mash the gas and of course, oversteer.

i just think its funny when people talk as if they are the drift king and as if they are going to drive "drift" on the streets. i mean, anyone who drives balls out on the canyon will understand that balance and grip are most importnat, and that specs dont always equate. so, the driver has to be in-tune with the car and know how to control their vehicle. ive raced plenty of cars that LOOK cool but hey, how cool do they look when they're in my rear view mirror. drifting isnt so cool when the person just got their ass handed to them.

- mike

..........wow

[S14DriftR]

ehh, your use of the car and driving style should tell you what you need, there are always sacrifices with each choice, wide tires are awesome if grip is what you want, but too much and you will wear only the insides exept during hard cornering, i ran 245/40/17 on a 17x8 with around 32-35 psi on a 44 max rated tire and the insides were bald while the outsides looked almost brand new. so there is a point of going too wide that you dont get the best contact patch.

[AKADriver]

That just means you had too much negative camber or toe-out. both of which indicate to me your car would've understeered more if your rear alignment was set properly.

[S14DriftR]

wouldnt only the insides be worn if that was the case? car was on h&r springs with agx's and otherwise stock suspension and was aligned by a very reputable shop.

[old_s13]

orange ghey> Wait, I'm confused. First balance isn't important, but now it is? Why are you bragging about how neutral your car is with non-staggered tires and proving my point for me? Who said anything about drifting? Trying to make your car rotate nicely doesn't make you a drifter. I've been autocrossing for years. You need to pick an argument and stick to it.

since you want to be such a smart ass, why dont you quote me.. WHERE did I say "balance is not important." Hmm.. search says: "! Finished Searching the Document" -- thats right, 0 finds.. because I didnt say that.

YOU are the one arguing, I am the one just speaking from MY perspective. Thats all this is, its a forum fucknut, people talk and share THEIR experiences. No one is 100% correct in this situation because its about give and take, every driver has their own preferences that apply to how and where they drive.

Besides, if its one thing I dont do is brag about my car.. I'm not a fake fuck who hides behind his material possessions. Hence the reason why I can drive a stripped down POS13 and not give a flying fuck. The point I was making is that understeer and oversteer arent "end of the world" characteristics like SO many people think it is. People watch "drift bible" and they take it to heart, like all of a sudden OVERSTEER is the shit and thats how TRUE performance cars should be setup. True performance cars should be setup to be driven, especially street cars. HOW it is setup, all applies to what the driver wants. Realize.


ehh, your use of the car and driving style should tell you what you need, there are always sacrifices with each choice, wide tires are awesome if grip is what you want, but too much and you will wear only the insides exept during hard cornering, i ran 245/40/17 on a 17x8 with around 32-35 psi on a 44 max rated tire and the insides were bald while the outsides looked almost brand new. so there is a point of going too wide that you dont get the best contact patch.

no, akadriver is right, your alignment is OFF buddy. this is why I dont run much negative camber on my street car, no more than 1.25 or 1.5 degrees.. somewhere in that range. I've chewed threw tires before, smart enthusiasts dont want to wear the insides of expensive super sticky tires.

[S14DriftR]

Originally Posted by old_s13

no, akadriver is right, your alignment is OFF buddy. this is why I dont run much negative camber on my street car, no more than 1.25 or 1.5 degrees.. somewhere in that range. I've chewed threw tires before, smart enthusiasts dont want to wear the insides of expensive super sticky tires.

I think i worded my post a little funny, with that size the center section or middle of the tire was bald, while both edges, outboard and inboard looked brand new. cambers was only 1 degree negative and my alignment was perfect on that car, my new car is a different story, has around 2 degrees neg in rear so i definatly know camber wear.

[AKADriver]

Ah, that's different. That's overinflation.

[S14DriftR]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

Ah, that's different. That's overinflation.

if 32-35 psi on a 44 max rated tire is over inflation then i guess that could be a possibility.

[AKADriver]

Originally Posted by S14DriftR

if 32-35 psi on a 44 max rated tire is over inflation then i guess that could be a possibility.

it is, if you're wearing the middle out before the edges. this is where driving at real sanctioned events wins.. because you can walk up to one of the super hardcore guys and borrow his tire pyrometer and make sure you've got consistent temps (and thus consistent load and consistent wear) across the tire.

also, you said the "insides" were wearing first which to me means the inside edges (left side of the right tire, right side of the left tire), not the middle of the tread.

old_s13, I understand your point that the original poster should stick with PROPER tire sizing on his staggered wheels. but orange-grey has a point too.

A stock or typically street-tuned 240SX, when equipped with non-staggered tire sizes, will gently understeer at the limit. This means that when our cars are pushed to their absolute steady-state cornering limits, the grip of the front tires will give way first. In such a system, if you increase rear grip without an increase in front grip it will have no effect on steady-state cornering speed/force. In other words, if your car can pull .90g at the edge of understeer with a 225/225 setup, if you go to a 225/255 setup with no other changes, the car will still pull .90g. Think of the front tires here as the "fusible link" in steady-state cornering performance.

Now, there will be slight improvements in transitions provided the driver can take advantage of them, keeping the weight over the nose at turn-in and getting on the throttle earlier at track out. Also, once the car is tuned to adjust the balance back towards neutrality (mechanically doing what the driver had to do before), the steady-state cornering will improve.

Given that the 240SX has wider rear wheelwells than front, stagger can be a very good thing if you know what you're doing as a driver and as a suspension tuner.

My only reason for not wanting to do it on my own car is flexibility. Staggered tires can't be rotated, and if my car were tuned to take advantage of them, it'd be rather twitchy if I wanted to slap the stock wheels back on for whatever reason. But once the staggered wheels are already bought, you might as well buy the staggered tires and tune for them.

[old_s13]

Originally Posted by S14DriftR

I think i worded my post a little funny, with that size the center section or middle of the tire was bald, while both edges, outboard and inboard looked brand new. cambers was only 1 degree negative and my alignment was perfect on that car, my new car is a different story, has around 2 degrees neg in rear so i definatly know camber wear.

man you dont know shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

hehe

[S14DriftR]

Originally Posted by old_s13

man you dont know shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

hehe

I guess not, but thanks for teaching me that wearing the middle of a tire out while the edges barely wear at all at low tire pressure means negative camber wear, cuz i always thought exessive neg camber would wear the inside edge haha