What the EFR turbos should have been

[LuckyX2]

^663NM (489ftlbs) from a GTX2867? Whoa.

What unit is ch? Is that just horsepower?

[RalliartRsX]

The Greddy boost control solenoid does a global wastegate cycle as compared to doing individual RPM cells in. That is the issue I am seeing with the Greddy

It can surely be tuned, but it's cheaper and easier to just use the EFR supplied solenoid and have the ECU do all the work. In addition, the ECU will 9 times out of 10 be faster at controlling wastegate duty cycle

Also, if you want to compare apples to apples, compare the GTX2867R to the EFR 6758.

Crazy numbers out of that GTX though. The power of E85

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

^663NM (489ftlbs) from a GTX2867? Whoa.

What unit is ch? Is that just horsepower?

1 ch = 1 Hp roughly

Looking at the GTX 2867 compressor map, this seems physically (physics) impossible. But I will reserve judgment for later

[Croustibat]

ch is for "cheval", which means horse. I do believe it is the same as hp. These numbers are corrected, not at the wheels. The dyno used is known to be conservative, there are quite some "500hp engines" that ended up showing under 400 on it. And i trust the tuner on that, he hates lying dynos. Could be wrong though,, but still i am inclined to believe him. The max torque does not stay long, maybe it is an overshoot (or wheel slip, but they usually catch it)


Thanks for the greddy solenoid info. simple gt2560r here, so no solenoid actuator on it. I can hardly get a stable 1.2bar boost on it... which is ok considering it is already out of puff there. still...
I dont own the engine showned, when it was sold i didn't have the money :/ my tuner built it to go in a drift car, and it was sold later. The owner wanted lots of low down torque and went V8.
There is a z33 gearbox attached to it too, and it is not going in a drift car this time. This goes in a proper grip car

[RalliartRsX]

That torque spiking and falling off so rapidly is evident of a severly overspun turbo, hence why although the numbers are phenomenal, the setup itself I feel is not an ideal for anything outside of drifting.

It drops SEVERAL HUNDRED!!! ft lb of torque by redline! I have seen a puny little T25 spun to over and spiked to over 20PSI on E85 by 3,000 RPM and make 280+ WHP on a SR (that E85 works magic I say ). Turbo lasted 100 miles before it self destructed.

[RalliartRsX]

And again I want to stress: the EFR turbo is not about DYNO numbers, it is about boost recovery and boost tip in. Something that it seems alot of people overlook when going to the dyno (or simply decide against posting those figures) and it's real world driving and track that dictates this.

Don't get me wrong, I love those numbers, but a big fat dyno with a overworked turbo really doesn't tell me anything about the GTX apart from it can be overspun.........which any turbo is capable of doing and posting huge dyno numbers.

Not trying to knock you Croustibat, but you need to step back and look at the entire picture.

Second I want to also make clear: I am in no way biased to the EFR turbo, but my gripe is with the dyno graph in general and how people go about making numbers (as compared to what my personal focus is). A well driving tractable car is what I am after, not huge numbers. So where that GTX plot will work for someone else, it is a plot that seemingly does not suite my needs.

[Croustibat]

i think it has been running for 2 years now, including a whole drift season in a pro driver's car.

No problem there, as stated, it is not my engine either; i am running a gt2560r on a ca18det. I just wanted to show that dyno file around, i didn't think this bugger could output 500hp. I don't have the money to run that kind of setup, and am more a corner guy than a straight line one. I like power when it goes through the ground without smoking tyres

I know EFRs are better at transistions... but an EFR setup is twice the cost of a GTX, and is bloody unavailable anywhere here. I know a couple of people who waited a whole year and finally gave up...

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

but an EFR setup is twice the cost of a GTX, and is bloody unavailable anywhere here. I know a couple of people who waited a whole year and finally gave up...

Dang, they must really gouge on EFR pricing over there. Buying an internal gate EFR is cheaper than a GTX after the turbine housing, external gate, and BOV here.

We've had two Subaru's with EFR's setups here at the shop, and the customers are blown away by the spool and power. The 7163 we put on a bone stock STI put down what looked like a stock power curve just with 50 more of everything everywhere on a conservative pump gas tune.

I'm also looking forward to the new S200SXE and S300SXE's coming out this year, should be cool.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

i think it has been running for 2 years now, including a whole drift season in a pro driver's car.


I know EFRs are better at transistions... but an EFR setup is twice the cost of a GTX, and is bloody unavailable anywhere here. I know a couple of people who waited a whole year and finally gave up...

1) Drift.......that is all. A whole drift session equates to one session for a trackday for me (20-30 mins)

2) TS twin gate manifold from Fullrace - 1200 shipped
Downpipe: 300 shipped full race
Two Tial Wastegates - 600 shipped
Turbo GTX - (doesn't come with turbine housing) - 1400 shipped
Turbine housing - 350 shipped
BOV - 200
Total = 1200 + 650 + 1400 + 350 + 300 + 200 = 4050

TS T4 manifold turbo kit from fullrace - 1200 shipped (includes manifold and downpipe)
EFR turbo (7163) - 1800 shipped
Total - 3000

I am not sure how you are getting the price difference for a EFR considering how many extra parts are needed to run a GTX. The turbos are available everywhere as of recently (before they had manufacturing issues), so your friends waiting over a year were probably the initial batch several years ago. All that has been sorted for more than 2 years now

[Yellow4g63]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

I'm also looking forward to the new S200SXE and S300SXE's coming out this year, should be cool.

I thought they were supposed to be out this month?

[Croustibat]

Depending on some funds that should be coming in june, i may be going for a little upgrade or not.
basically forge the CA (i have been hammering at it for 50.000km now, and it has 220.000km), and then either stay with the gt2560r, buy one new (750€, with housing), or go with a gtx2867r (because bolt on ... no twinscroll nor external wastegate).

Might go for an EFR if the price difference is not that big, but it requires a new mani, elbow and hotpipe at the very least so the price goes up fast. My tuner has some good pricing on garrett products, the EFR are another story.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

Depending on some funds that should be coming in june, i may be going for a little upgrade or not.
basically forge the CA (i have been hammering at it for 50.000km now, and it has 220.000km), and then either stay with the gt2560r, buy one new (750€, with housing), or go with a gtx2867r (because bolt on ... no twinscroll nor external wastegate).

Might go for an EFR if the price difference is not that big, but it requires a new mani, elbow and hotpipe at the very least so the price goes up fast. My tuner has some good pricing on garrett products, the EFR are another story.

In all honesty, if the price difference is significant and favors the GTX, I wouldn't hesitate to go that route. If he price difference is more than $700 (just my personal cutoff point), the performance difference is not worth the extra since I am not looking for that extra tenth in a full bore race series.

However, the idea of packaging everything into one system (BOV and not having to run extra piping, lines, etc for a EWG for example) was much more appealing to me since there is significantly less than could go wrong, I would have to fix or would eventually have to replace due to usage (no two wastegates, all that extra piping that is associated with the wastegates and v band clamps, coolant lines if I am running an updated wastegate, plumbing, etc etc etc) . If you already have a turbine housing and are setup for a T2 bottom, then a GTX2867 or whatever GTX T2 frame, would probably be cheaper than a EFR by a significant amount.


The GTX would be a wonderful choice in my opinion if it were down to significant price difference and all I am doing is doing trackdays. If budget is not an issue, EFR all the way baby (unless the EFR is cheaper, at which point, the answer is obvious )

[Croustibat]

Yeah, the EFR packaging is appealing to me too If it was a direct fit for a T2 setup, i'd have no hesitation. Budget is an issue and as i am not competing, there is no point in having a ultimate setup. It just is a track toy. The next problem is going to be the gearbox, and that is another 3000+€ to shell out to get a bulletproof one if i go the 400HP+ route :/

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

Yeah, the EFR packaging is appealing to me too If it was a direct fit for a T2 setup, i'd have no hesitation. Budget is an issue and as i am not competing, there is no point in having a ultimate setup. It just is a track toy. The next problem is going to be the gearbox, and that is another 3000+€ to shell out to get a bulletproof one if i go the 400HP+ route :/

You can get an EFR6758 on a stock SR20DET manifold with some minor grinding. That might be a good solution for you since it would save you the $1000+ that the twinscroll manifold setup costs.

[PoorMans180SX]

Originally Posted by Yellow4g63

I thought they were supposed to be out this month?

I think so yes.

[Croustibat]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

You can get an EFR6758 on a stock SR20DET manifold with some minor grinding. That might be a good solution for you since it would save you the $1000+ that the twinscroll manifold setup costs.

I have a ca18det with a non stock mani, but i'll check on that. It may be the way. I am still not familiar with EFR serial numbers, i'll search. I am looking for something between 350-400WHP.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by Croustibat

I have a ca18det with a non stock mani, but i'll check on that. It may be the way. I am still not familiar with EFR serial numbers, i'll search. I am looking for something between 350-400WHP.

Oh yeah, forgot it was a CA18DET. Should be a similar deal but I can't say for certain. 6758 is the one you'd want for that power range.

[RalliartRsX]

EFR 6258 on a Stock S13/S14 SR20DET Exhaust Manifold


Well, as some of you are aware while retapping the manifold, which was supposedly made for this setup (citing issues of stock placement manifold NOT fitting with stock water lines), I broke a tap. I dropped it off at the machine shop 2 weeks ago and they basically gave me the run around and 2 weeks have gone by..........

This angers me as I distinctly dismantled the vehicle after my last event with the idea of getting the broken tap removed, the manifold returned and everything bolted up with a new tune 2 weeks ago.

With that said, I decided this weekend that I didn't want to wait on the manifold and took measurements. I luckily scored a free S13 SR20DET manifold and decided to go to work. In addition, I also picked up some banjo bolts from Kinugawa (14x1.5 to -6AN) as we all know the 14x1.5 to -6AN on the block WONT fit with the bottom mount stock manifold.

Long story short, IT FITS! In addition, the overall fitment was improved overall. This includes

1) Running a 300ZX BMC and stock hardlines, the manifold and turbo combo was much more easily maneuvered into the tight confines between the engine and engine mount
2) The v-band outlet clearance to the gearbox/engine block was much improved and clearance was increased about 0.5 inches
3) Stock heatshield can easily be clearanced to fit


This made for removing and reinstalling the manifold a breeze! I did run into two minor issues, but they are easily quelled

1) You CAN reused the stock T25/T28 turbo oil drain, but you will need a spacer as it hits the compressor housing (just use a different fitting. $10 for a proper barbed fitting)
2) Its a tight fit for the coolant lines (but that comes with a bottom mount turbo)
3) You need to clearance the stock based engine mounts to make this works (ala Nismo), Aftermarket mounts are highly recommended for this installation.


Anyways, here are pics. It actually overall fits BETTER than my prior manifold.

So in essence, if anyone wants to use a stock location manifold, just use a proper banjo bolt on the block and you are good to go!

I also decided to make new lines, so hopefully will have it back together in the net day or so!

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

........

My sincere apologies for saying this doesn't fit the stock manifold!

This is good news for anyone who wants to install this on a stock setup. The downpipe is soooo much easier with the v band and not have to worry about those bitch ass 5 bolts!

I can have this out in less than 40 mins and in in about 1 hour.

Still hate bottom mount, but surprisingly, the stock manifold has actually made things easier so far

[Def]

Ummm.. Ralliart - why do you have your BOV plumbed to the compressor housing? It won't work that way...

[cotbu]

Originally Posted by Def

Ummm.. Ralliart - why do you have your BOV plumbed to the compressor housing? It won't work that way...

XD, thought he was just keeping the hose out of the way! Then realize the zipties....

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by Def

Ummm.. Ralliart - why do you have your BOV plumbed to the compressor housing? It won't work that way...

Picture was taken before this was fixed (CRV sounded horrendous when routed incorrect!). It is now ran down and around to one of the vacuum ports post TB

Good eye though!

[180driftersx]

Has anyone used a 6758 twin scroll with the FR t4 twin scroll. I didn't really see any mention of this. Unless I missed it I just saw Geoff mention a customer car had it. No details. Is the extra money worth it for a stock sr setup. All these bw setups and results look amazing! The numbers are fantastic all around. Especially the basic setups stock cams and IM. People don't mention that when complaining on the cost of an efr setup. Also having to go external on 2871 and 2867 then reroute back in. To get those kind of results. The bw seem more appealing the more I see.

[RalliartRsX]

My 6758 arrived two days ago. I am ordering a T4 TS .80 housing for it and a top mount manifold after my next track day in a out 1 week. If all else works out (which it never does lol) I'm hoping to have the setup ready for dyno by the end of July. Going for both a pump and E85 tune. Street tune will happen on 93 before that however

[Def]

Originally Posted by 180driftersx

Has anyone used a 6758 twin scroll with the FR t4 twin scroll. I didn't really see any mention of this. Unless I missed it I just saw Geoff mention a customer car had it. No details. Is the extra money worth it for a stock sr setup. All these bw setups and results look amazing! The numbers are fantastic all around. Especially the basic setups stock cams and IM. People don't mention that when complaining on the cost of an efr setup. Also having to go external on 2871 and 2867 then reroute back in. To get those kind of results. The bw seem more appealing the more I see.

There's no reason not to put cams on an SR when you're talking about dropping near $3k for a turbo and manifold setup.

If you still want a reasonably strong bottom end use something like 256's.

[TheRealSy90]

Anybody have experience with the T3 EFR? 7064 internal gate single scroll. Seems pretty similar to the 7163 which is the optimum t2 sr20 turbo IMO. I just don't have a t2 manifold anymore, but I have a t3 lol.

[RalliartRsX]

The 7064 T3 vs the 7163 is not a direct comparison. Too many differences but let me take a stab at this

1) Open Scroll T3 on a SR20. If you are looking for response and transient, you are going to be losing out compared to a 7163
2) The T2 7163 is only offered in 0.85 open scroll housing.
3) The 7163 has the mixed flow turbine wheel and shares the same compressor backing plate of the 6758
4) The 7064 has a 3" inlet (which isn't necessarily a bad thing.....but this somewhat ties into where the low speed surge limit)
5) The results of the 7163 vs the 7064 shows the 7064 losing out to the 7163 in all aspect sans outright balls to the wall HP. Then, the difference was only 20-30 WHP.

The 7064 would be good for an inline 4 with a 2.3 or bigger capacity and a decent flowing head. It was somewhat laggy on the 2.5 boxer Scooby engine (for obvious reasons).

If a mild SR20, I would stick with the 7163. If a worked over SR, I would probably skip the 7064 alltogether and go straight to the 7670.

The 7064 is seemingly the bastard step child of the group.

P.S I have a 7163 for sale currently

[LuckyX2]

7064 is useless since the 7163 came out, IMO.

7163 spools better because of the mixed flow turbine and is rated for 60lbs/min of flow vs the 7064's only 56lbs/min of flow.

[TheRealSy90]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

The 7064 is seemingly the bastard step child of the group.

P.S I have a 7163 for sale currently

Thanks for trying to explain I appreciate it shoot me a price for that 7163?

Maybe being the bastard child it deserves someone to give it a chance? Lol.

The only problem is no T3 option for the 7163 [emoji25] If it came T3 internal or external gate I'd choose the 7163. So since I've got a t3 manifold I figured the 7064 was my closest option. Slightly slower spool up, maybe more top end. In all honesty, a slightly slower spool compared to the 7163 doesn't seem THAT bad as the 7163 comes on insanely fast haha.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FullRaceGeoff]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

The only problem is no T3 option for the 7163 [emoji25] If it came T3 internal or external gate I'd choose the 7163. So since I've got a t3 manifold I figured the 7064 was my closest option. Slightly slower spool up, maybe more top end.

Full-Race can customize the 7163 to T3 by welding a T3 flange on the inlet. photo attached. But keep in mind 7064 is also an excellent turbo, and under-rated in my experiece. both are good options