What standalone ecu do u recomend?!?!

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

So, since were just having a pissing contest now, how about Megasquirt? Granted they dont make a PNP for the RB's, but there is one for the SR (yeah like we were all so on topic anyways)

My least favorite computer for daily drivers. I've installed and tuned a couple megasquirt ECU and due to their essence of customization, require many hardware assessments (potentiometer tuning, solder new wires, added capacitors/resistors, signal/trigger and oscilloscope diagnostics).

Here is one of my recent Megasquirt setups
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...486079#p486079


I wouldn't recommend a Megasquirt to a novice unless they also own and know how to use an oscilloscope. If you want a preview just look through the MS forums, of which there are several different versions of forum, for each custom portion of that ECU, and all of which have a dedicated group of electronics experts which are necessary for any person who is new to the hardware aspect to get help. Without those experts many users/owners would be dead in the water. Nobody new to computers is going to randomly "figure out" that they needed a 9.5k resistor between "JP1 and JP2" to attenuate the voltage from the wheel trigger, for example. So it will require research, time, investment of self.

Which is why the PFC is so powerful. No research necessary. No hardware configuration. No trigger signal to fool with. No injector phasing to setup. (You think the AEM or Haltech will come pre-set with the correct phasing? Find out the hard way) Add that to low cost and you have the fundamental recipe for a solid daily driver: KISS.

[Kingtal0n]

Some more examples of recent and old tunes for AEM and PFC

recent PFC tune sr20


video



recent PFC tune 2jz



old skyline PFC GT-R tune



2006 RB26 PFC tune (see above for dyno graph)



The PFC is a full stand-alone with auto-tuning wideband/datalog options, just like the most expensive computer you can buy.

Here we see that I've logged A/F values, and with some simple math in excel (Provided for FREE by the data-logit website for the PFC), the car 'tunes' itself (making % adjustments that fine tune the map without me having to individually program each cell, through using excel)

recent AEM tune 2jz



old AEM tune sr20



Another old AEM sr20 tune
http://www.freshalloy.com/showthread...stock-manifold


Notice they all do the same thing. All the cars drive great, plugs come out looking great, the owners can't tell what the computer is because they all run the same for the most part. The AEM cars get more fine-idle tuning, startup is more sheep friendly. But these arn't vehicles for sheep, so having it startup like a new vette is just a novelty. I hope this has been educational and instructive time well spent.

[smoked240]

I'm almost positive kingtalon is a PFC representative.

[fatduece]

Originally Posted by smoked240

I'm almost positive kingtalon is a PFC representative.

Lol. He's practically got me sold! Does pfc have any fail safe options? And how well does their MAP conversion work? I'm planing on running no bov and from my research I found that most recommend to ditch maf if running without a bov

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by fatduece

Lol. He's practically got me sold! Does pfc have any fail safe options? And how well does their MAP conversion work? I'm planing on running no bov and from my research I found that most recommend to ditch maf if running without a bov

Out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for running without a BOV?

[KAT-PWR]

To be fair there are probably a ton of people that paid big bucks for features they'll never use.
Keep it simple.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by KAT-PWR

To be fair there are probably a ton of people that paid big bucks for features they'll never use.
Keep it simple.

whats worse is when a stand-alone contains features you didn't know would interfere with what you had planned for the engine. The AEM for example has a feature which allows a bad map sensor to jump to an "alpha-N" type of map, where throttle position dictates fuel instead of map pressure. However, this map is also apparently used when you "max the map sensor" which I find inappropriate and annoying. Sometimes I want to run just 1psi over the max of the 2-bar map (~16psi) but I don't want it to jump to some alternative map for that extra 1psi. Instead I want it to ride the 15psi line as if nothing happened. If you arn't away of this... hidden setting... the default will jump to the 7psi line of your fuel map as it passes 15psi into the 16psi region (instead of just sitting on 15psi like you would expect). By default, this is a dangerous setting to hand to somebody in a "plug and play" ecu.

Originally Posted by fatduece

Lol. He's practically got me sold! Does pfc have any fail safe options? And how well does their MAP conversion work? I'm planing on running no bov and from my research I found that most recommend to ditch maf if running without a bov

MAP is tuned like any other ecu, generally wideband logs are reviewed and you plug formulas/maths to make it faster if you want. Depends how long you have the vehicle for. The PFC has its own MAP Sensor but you can change the settings (pressure : voltage) to use any MAP you want I suppose.

As far as fail safe, If you are worried about the engine you run a fuel pressure safety switch in any application first and foremost. After that, use the fuel cut limiter in street/daily applications for best results. If you have an expensive engine you also will want an oil pressure data-logger and safety switch for that as well.

[TheRealSy90]

Originally Posted by fatduece

Does pfc have any fail safe options?

PowerFC doesn't have any failsafes. It tells the engine to run in the manner it's programed. It doesn't natively support any sort of failsafe that will cut power to the engine.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

As far as fail safe, If you are worried about the engine you run a fuel pressure safety switch in any application first and foremost. After that, use the fuel cut limiter in street/daily applications for best results. If you have an expensive engine you also will want an oil pressure data-logger and safety switch for that as well.

So now you're having to invest in additional loggers and controllers to have any sort of failsafe functionality. Now the cost is going up!


Infinity supports a failsafe for any parameter it reads if you want there to be a failsafe on it. I've got my sr20 Infinity setup with wideband afr, fuel pressure, oil pressure, boost, water temp, oil temp and ethanol content, all going directly to the ecu itself. If I set a max or minimum parameter I want for any of these the computer can trigger a fail safe.
I've basically got the Infinity set up to a point where I couldn't blow up my sr20 if I tried, aside from an all out catastrophic component failure.

[fatduece]

^Bovs are a marketing scheme! This is another one of those topics that could go on forever so I'm not gonna get into that here.

[KAT-PWR]

Originally Posted by fatduece

^Bovs are a marketing scheme! This is another one of those topics that could go on forever so I'm not gonna get into that here.

You're making me want to punch you in the throat

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by fatduece

^Bovs are a marketing scheme! This is another one of those topics that could go on forever so I'm not gonna get into that here.

Yes, the OEM manufactures and aftermarket companies like Borg Warner have been fooling us for years with their working technology and proven studies.

Have you let all of the race teams in the world know about this travesty as well?

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by fatduece

^Bovs are a marketing scheme! This is another one of those topics that could go on forever so I'm not gonna get into that here.

Well that's not the response I expected... I thought you had some logical reasoning behind your decision.

If a few hundred dollars protects my compressor wheel from blowing up I'll gladly spend it at the cost of a tiny amount of throttle response. Though if you select a quality BOV the pressure loss in the intercooler piping is minimal.

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Well that's not the response I expected... I thought you had some logical reasoning behind your decision.

If a few hundred dollars protects my compressor wheel from blowing up I'll gladly spend it at the cost of a tiny amount of throttle response. Though if you select a quality BOV the pressure loss in the intercooler piping is minimal.

Also if you invest in one of them der computing machines ya'll talkin bout you can program yer self sum 2-step and flat bare foot shift for all the boosties.

[RB25GUY]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Well that's not the response I expected... I thought you had some logical reasoning behind your decision.

If a few hundred dollars protects my compressor wheel from blowing up I'll gladly spend it at the cost of a tiny amount of throttle response. Though if you select a quality BOV the pressure loss in the intercooler piping is minimal.

its funny because do you have any proof of actual damage without bovs other than i read this here or i saw this article online...ill wait.... there are different stages to compressor surge and the surge that KILLS turbos is the surge that is when you are ON THROTTLE not when you LET OFF THROTTLE.......like this is what type of surge kills turbos

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by RB25GUY

its funny because do you have any proof of actual damage without bovs other than i read this here or i saw this article online...ill wait.... there are different stages to compressor surge and the surge that KILLS turbos is the surge that is when you are ON THROTTLE not when you LET OFF THROTTLE.......like this is what type of surge kills turbos

its the same air flowing backwards through the wheel, whether you lift from the gas, or you are on the gas, surge is surge. The difference in the video between "lifting surge" and "attempt to compress air with too low of a flow rate surge" is that the turbo keeps re-attempting the same damaging scenario over and over again in the span of a couple seconds, as opposed to doing so over months or years of driving. In other words, air is air, and its the same air bending the fins of the compressor wheel and slamming the shaft around during violent surge whether there is a consistent exhaust attempt to spin the wheel, or a fleeting one everytime you lift to shift at similar flow rates (full throttle surge from lifting the gas pedal).

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

PowerFC doesn't have any failsafes. It tells the engine to run in the manner it's programed. It doesn't natively support any sort of failsafe that will cut power to the engine.

So now you're having to invest in additional loggers and controllers to have any sort of failsafe functionality. Now the cost is going up!

1. If you have an expensive engine, say 30k, you use the AEM or similar ahead of a PFC for its additional features. The PFC is a bare bones for "cheap" engines usually daily drivers on a budget. I've mentioned this 100x and fully support the use of better stand-alone systems if the application calls for it. IF the application calls for it.
2. The PFC contains what every stand-alone contains: fuel cut rev limiter. Which is more than enough for a daily/street application at any power level, and safe to use.
3. Even the AEM does not contain a fuel cut safety switch. Those must be added to ALL setups if you care enough, and are cheap enough $15. Not really a big deal. The idea behind it is to remove the decision from the ECU (do not depend on a computer 100% to save the expensive engine... use alternative "redundant safety features") and give an alternative safety net, extra protection any setup can use.
4. The minute you say E85, alternative race fuels, etc... you will want to step up into the AEM or similar category of stand-alone. PFC is generally great for gasoline, but those using E-85 and so forth will want the option of flex fuel compatibility and as you say, a wide range of loggers. Those engines should be over 180hp/liter for this kind of fuel/expense. i.e. I can support 600rwhp using plain 93 octane + meth/water in a 3.0L (200hp/liter on gasoline is possible) engine so there is no reason to step into that kind of ECU, as E85 holds no real advantage. Once I pass that range into the 700rwhp+ for 3.0L I will need the E85 and better ECU, especially if I want to keep a reasonable compression for a street car.

[TheRealSy90]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

1. If you have an expensive engine, say 30k, you use the AEM or similar ahead of a PFC for its additional features. The PFC is a bare bones for "cheap" engines usually daily drivers on a budget. I've mentioned this 100x and fully support the use of better stand-alone systems if the application calls for it. IF the application calls for it.
2. The PFC contains what every stand-alone contains: fuel cut rev limiter. Which is more than enough for a daily/street application at any power level, and safe to use.
3. Even the AEM does not contain a fuel cut safety switch.

I just wanted to touch on these real quick. I think whether the application calls for it or not is really up to the user. If I can instrument a stock sr20 with enough sensors and fail-safes to make it last way longer than it ever would have without them then I'm all for it. And even better for my built motor if I ever decide to put it in.


So it has a fuel cut rev limiter. What if oil pressure is low? The PFC is gonna run the engine until the rods come out since it doesn't have an input for that parameter. That's pretty important.


I have a fuel pressure sensor in my regulator wired directly to the AEM. This is a fuel cut safety. If my fuel pressure ever drops it will cut the engine off or cut the boost pressure, pull timing, limp mode or whatever I tell it to do in that event. What am I missing here? I don't see how any external fuel cut off would be better.

[KAT-PWR]

Originally Posted by RB25GUY

its funny because do you have any proof of actual damage without bovs other than i read this here or i saw this article online...ill wait.... there are different stages to compressor surge and the surge that KILLS turbos is the surge that is when you are ON THROTTLE not when you LET OFF THROTTLE.......like this is what type of surge kills turbos

[Y[/YT]

You've yet to back up any claims I have seen from you with any math, just misguided opinions.

No bov = extra torque = (force*radius) applied to compressor wheel while it is still trying to spin, causing deflection and wear on bearings....

You don't need a study, it's physics. The same stuff turbo manufacturers use to develop their products and the same reason why turbo manufacturers SAY TO RUN A BYPASS/BOV.

(Already have spoke to two mechanical engineers regarding this)

That being said this doesn't mean your turbo will blow up in a day

[RB25GUY]

Originally Posted by KAT-PWR

You've yet to back up any claims I have seen from you with any math.

No bov = extra torque = (force*radius) applied to compressor wheel while it is still trying to spin, causing deflection and wear on bearings....

You don't need a study, it's physics. The same stuff turbo manufacturers use to develop their products and the same reason why turbo manufacturers SAY TO RUN A BYPASS/BOV.

(Already have spoke to two mechanical engineers regarding this)

What im saying is not all Surge is deadly like the "lifting" surge king called it in the snapase video. I know people who have put 15k on big turbo builds without bovs, guys running stock setups of no bov having no issues at all. Corky bell author of maximum boost says bovs are put on cars to get rid of the turbo flutter noise and hes never had a issue with turbo failure with no bovs ever hes been in the turbocharging field for decades...



http://www.volkspage.net/technik/04/maximum_boost.pdf

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Well that's not the response I expected... I thought you had some logical reasoning behind your decision.

If a few hundred dollars protects my compressor wheel from blowing up I'll gladly spend it at the cost of a tiny amount of throttle response. Though if you select a quality BOV the pressure loss in the intercooler piping is minimal.

it doesn't cost any throttle response to run a proper bypass. It can only improve response and reduce lag when done right. When the bypass opens, the pressure in intercooler plumbing is above atmospheric, whereas the pressure in the intake filter tract (pre compressor) is at, or below atmospheric. That means airflow will rush into the air filter tract (thus, recirculated). To say it another way, boost pressure enters the air filter tract momentarily, causing the pressure pre-compressor to rise. This will assist the compressor wheel.

To put it in reverse for you to see the same principle applied to naturally aspirated engines, consider this. Install an air filter to a random engine, then measure the pressure in the air filter tract. Now, reduce the air filter size and keep measuring the same location. What happens? The air filter tract gradually will decrease in pressure (more vacuum signal) and the power output of the engine will decrease in a fairly linear fashion. In other words, the more restrictive the filter, the lower the pressure after the filter, the less power the engine will make.

Tie the two ideas together now. What would you rather have in the air filter tract, a low pressure (restrictive air filter), or a high pressure (higher than atmospheric if possible). This is what the recirculated bypass does to the air filter tract, it positively assist the pressure there, allowing the compressor wheel to gather more air molecules per revolution, the same way it would help a naturally aspirated engine to gather more air molecules per revolution if we reduce an air filter restriction.

Another positive benefit to recirculation is the compressor wheel speed increases in all pre-boost situations. Tightly sealed air filter tracts without any recirculation valve (bypass) have lower wheel speeds given the same exhaust gas velocity/temperature. In other words, the wheel will move slower, because there is nowhere for the air to go in the intercooler plumbing (try putting your hand over the compressor outlet and see what happens to the wheel speed). Any typical turbocharger moves more air, even at idle speed, than the engine will need. On an OEM turbocharged vehicle, the bypass will hang open at idle, so that during idle speed, the compressor wheel may continue to pump air into the plumbing, which is then recirculated by into the air filter tract as we discussed above, in a never ending loop (until the engine demands the air, which is when the bypass will SHUT TIGHTLY). This keeps the compressor wheel speed up, and can be measured with an compressor wheel speed data-logger, which will show that wheel speed will always be higher given a properly recirculated bypass, whether at idle or between shifts.

cliffs:
1. bypass recirculated improves response, higher compressor wheel speed during shifts, overall better performance and longer turbo life span

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

it doesn't cost any throttle response to run a proper bypass. It can only improve response and reduce lag when done right. When the bypass opens, the pressure in intercooler plumbing is above atmospheric, whereas the pressure in the intake filter tract (pre compressor) is at, or below atmospheric. That means airflow will rush into the air filter tract (thus, recirculated). To say it another way, boost pressure enters the air filter tract momentarily, causing the pressure pre-compressor to rise. This will assist the compressor wheel.

Thanks for the long explanation, I 100% agree, though I was more considering a vent to atmosphere. It's just usually the response people give when they say they won't run a BOV.

It is something I have explored in depth, and being a mechanical engineer, I understand the reasoning behind exactly what you are saying.

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Thanks for the long explanation, I 100% agree, though I was more considering a vent to atmosphere. It's just usually the response people give when they say they won't run a BOV.

It is something I have explored in depth, and being a mechanical engineer, I understand the reasoning behind exactly what you are saying.

the loss in response can easily be remedied with a stand alone capable of flat foot shift, where via the clutch switch the ECU is told to hold RPMs (let's say 5000 RPM or so, similar to launch control) to keep the revs up between shifts.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Thanks for the long explanation, I 100% agree, though I was more considering a vent to atmosphere. It's just usually the response people give when they say they won't run a BOV.

It is something I have explored in depth, and being a mechanical engineer, I understand the reasoning behind exactly what you are saying.

An engineering perspective: the energy absorbed by the turbine (temp drop and velocity drop in the exhaust system due to molecules transferring kinetic energy to the turbine) is transferred to the compressor wheel, and that energy will be more well conserved when the wheel does not meet any resistance on it's outlet. Resistance to flow in this example being in the form of pressure, which is what the bypass eliminates when pressure is unwanted. This is one of the major keys to achieving a higher fuel economy while using a turbocharger, reducing the pumping loss of the engine by transferring energy from the exhaust molecules to the compressor wheel, which then transfers that energy to the air molecules heading towards the engine which help them move into the cylinder on the intake stroke (as opposed to being "drawn" in by a vacuum created by the descending piston). To this end, we need leak free plumbing (any leak on the compressor side will cause the exhaust pressure to increase, as the exhaust wheel will put up more resistance due to the higher compressor wheel speed needed to achieve the same flow rate into the engine, since some molecules are now leaking out)

[fatduece]

Will see about that! I have a brand new gtx2867r that I'll be testing out. Will see how long it lasts at 20psi. I'll be sure to let you all know if it dies.

[fatduece]

Honestly....who here thinks they'll put on 100-200k worth of miles on a motor or turbo? We all abuse our cars pretty bad. The motors we tend to swap all come with high mileage (we all know those 60k jdm swaps dried up centuries ago lol) and you want to put on another 100-200k? Hardly unlikely, unless you drive it like a grandma. I've put on 7k miles over the course of 6 years. Obviously my setup isn't a daily. So if I can get 15k out of a new turbo I'm a happy camper. Not only that! Turbo flutter sounds way better than any bov.

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by fatduece

Honestly....who here thinks they'll put on 100-200k worth of miles on a motor or turbo? We all abuse our cars pretty bad. The motors we tend to swap all come with high mileage (we all know those 60k jdm swaps dried up centuries ago lol) and you want to put on another 100-200k? Hardly unlikely, unless you drive it like a grandma. I've put on 7k miles over the course of 6 years. Obviously my setup isn't a daily. So if I can get 15k out of a new turbo I'm a happy camper. Not only that! Turbo flutter sounds way better than any bov.

So to condense,

Stupid noises>functionality and reliability

Did I get that right?

[KAT-PWR]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

So to condense,

Stupid noises>functionality and reliability

Did I get that right?

Spend money but do it sloppy because you won't use it that much so break stuff to rebuy it when you don't have to.

[fatduece]

Depends on what your goal is. I'm just building a fun drift car. I could careless about competition or how to achieve maximum performance.

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by fatduece

Depends on what your goal is. I'm just building a fun drift car. I could careless about competition or how to achieve maximum performance.

So inefficient use of funds and resources because lazy hoonibro drift car attitude?

#aintcare bro

[pacotaco345]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

So inefficient use of funds and resources because lazy hoonibro drift car attitude?

#aintcare bro

Lol some people just don't want to run BOVs. I don't run one on my car because compressor surge sounds way less lame than some chirping wooshing noise every time you let off the throttle. I only want the car to make 300 wheel and I'm fine with buying a $400 turbo every two years, so I don't care. He hasn't publicly advertised what his car looks like though Mr. Mazworx, but your hooptie kustom krylon krinkle koat kore support looks pretty rad hoonibro...


Anyways, so no real complaints about the AEM infinity? I've been trying to track down why my car suddenly stopped wanting to coldstart for about 2 months now with no luck.. Thinking about refreshing the motor then going infinity with a WS pro harness when I get my tax return and never worrying about it again.

[fatduece]

Lmao. My setup is far from the typical hoonibro piles you see at the track