Original vs. Knock-off

[ghostuss]

you don't see knock off forged rims do you? Those are not something simple and you can just copy from. You need the machine to do it so wheels is not in the question. They are aruging about quality knock offs vs real counter parts. (I haven't seen anyone stand for cheap knock offs so far) So really this arugement is between rather to spend or not to spend the extra money. I say no. I rather spend the money else where. I only respect quality and nothing else. Spending money for the brand is simply not my way of doing things.

[Macadoshus]

I think the quality argument, while true in alot of cases, is missing the real point. The point is, knock-offs are just that, knock-offs. They require no original though from the company manufacturing them, and they are the result of stolen intellectual property. If this were a bigger industry with lots of money to throw at lawyers, like the music or record industry, this would be unacceptable.

I don't have a problem with inexpensive well manufactured kits, so long as they are original. A manufacturer has the right to set their own prices for their products and not have those products duplicated and their price undercut. Alot of money does go into the R&D of any product and I think if you were footing that bill so someone else could profit off it you would see that point. If you don't like the price cause it is too high, by all means by another kit.

[final act]

I dont mind buying knock off aero, because its alot cheaper and in drifting aero gets easily broken and beat up......knock offs dont fit that great but with a little dremmel here and there, you cant notice the difference....Ive also noticed that the knock offs are pretty strong.

[blitz180]

I can vouch for the bomex comment. I wanted a "wangan" spoiler, and I was like hmmm let's go for something quality. Passed up a bunch of 150-200 dollar wings and spent 450 on the bomex about 2 years go. Fits like shit and rubbed spots in my beautiful Le Mans Orange Sunset (350Z) paint.
Vis Hood = Fit perfect
Vis Demon (do luck copy) Rear End Caps = Fit perfect
Vis Demon sides = Minor modification (less than the wing)
Vis Demon Front = Minor mods needed to fit, but it is still the best fitting out of the 3 brands of kits i've put on 3 cars, with a spoilers etc kit on my 93 MX6 following REALLY close in second place. And just remember there is NO such thing as a perfect fitting piece of fiberglass.

Bottom line is, the Vis stuff didn't fit bad and was hella thick, I've rubbed and hit so many things in that. More than any other kit i've seen. Plus with the chance a pothole or curb or auto-x cone would destroy it, why would I pay 2 times as much for a lil tag fiberglassed in underneath that only i know is there? 275 on a bumper is easier to swallow the 700 for an auto-x/ street car.

And yes my car looks hella nice

[s14srpilot]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

No where have I ever bashed Version:Select. Besides I thought Version:Selct manufactured their line of aero, not knock-offs. I could be wrong about them, but I know I'm right about the companies I spoke about. He's welcome to argue for or against my point, just don't try and throw some bullshit "high horse" comment in there.

Isn't Version: Select a Vertex knock off? If so I'd make an exception for them because the fitment of their kits is quite good from what I have seen. Plus you can pick up a kit immediately from TF unlike Vertex you have to pay a high price, order it from Japan and wait for it to be shipped. The only problem with Version: select is that it's been PLAYED OUT by drift unit, a knock off of G Unit lol

[TRUENOCOUPE]

@ people saying that they will never buy knock off parts.

-Al

[MadScientist]

I started this as a General Topic of Discusion with informed information about Composite processing. So far everyone assumed I was speaking of Japan vs. the USA. Alot of people make assumptions about what they are getting quality wise, and Yes, Quality was the focus of informing you about the composite process.

How do I know about composite processes and Quality??
I have been outside contracted by the Millitary for Composite Reseach and Development for the last 5 years.

I was not naming companies but the most commonly named company so far is Version Select. It is good quality... I never denied that... do I have an account with them?... Yes!... can I sell it?... Yes!... I even have an account with VIS!... If someone asks for something, I will get it... dont assume that just because my business is based on Japanesse parts only, I dont know what customers are buying.

And yes... they bombed us, and we bombed them... that is politics, history, economics, and life... not quality!

When I say, Respect... its not about where or who manufactured the part, its about the process used. ex: The Top Secret Carbon Fiber Hood is solid Pre-preg Carbon Fiber... no Fiberglass shell or core... a true Carbon Fiber Hood. The skill and education required to make the part is what gets my respect.

I called Seibon the other day just to see if the guy on the phone knew what he was talking about... I'm not doubting their quality, just follow me!
I asked the guy one question... If the Carbon parts had Fiberglass cores and/or shells... he almost seemed offended and confused at the question but replied... "Yes, because the Carbon alone is not strong enough to support the weight." This is by far incorrect, and hinted that the process was open mold Hand Lay-up. Will I still purchass Seibon products... sure, and at least now I know the quality to expect from the process used, and all it took was one simple question.

peace
Drew

[Aoshi112]

Originally Posted by MadScientist

.

When I say, Respect... its not about where or who manufactured the part, its about the process used. ex: The Top Secret Carbon Fiber Hood is solid Pre-preg Carbon Fiber... no Fiberglass shell or core... a true Carbon Fiber Hood. The skill and education required to make the part is what gets my respect.

Drew

Sorry to knit pick here but that statement is completely false. My friend has the authentic top secret hood for his supra and its just a wet lay process with fiberglass backing. $1800 just for wet lay. Real nice. You can tell its not pre-preg because they actually stretch the weave a bit as there are distortions and the supra hood is way too wide. The widest size of available carbon fiber is 60" wide(unless you ordered a custom roll, but that ain't happening with the large carbon fiber shortage) and the supra hood at its widest point is over 60". Also when you put the hood up to the sun, you can see through many pores of the carbon fiber because the weave has been stretched to try to fit the hood. They did a good job but I also seen a few more authentics and they were not all perfect but its definitely not prepreg, otherwise the weave would be impeccable.

[revat619]

wheels may not necessarily be in question, but the amount of money spent is. Dont complain about something being pricey when your spending the same amount if not more elsewhere. Why do people buy nice wheels instead of buying knock offs and running spacers? ummm lets see...quality, light weight, good widths and offsets, etc...I think you get the idea.

[MakotoS13]

wouldn't it just be more cost effective to enjoy how fuggin sexy a stock body 240 is?

pignosed and proud, foo.

[infinitexsound]

ohhhhhhhh someone is calling out a crew.........................
money adds up, i wouldnt want to consistently replace my bumper with one thats expensive and takes so amount of months to be delivered...when i can make a call get it replaced in about 3 weeks.. if u would want to reinforce a FB bumper then do it ur self.. its not that hard to laydown fiberglass..ive done it many of times at work..its just fair to state that we all are on a budget.. and can only afford whats easier to obtain with so so dollars in our wallet... quality is nice but whos gonna seriously look under the paint for the ***** craftsmanship... mainly what ppl see is the paint.. and good fitment.. waves if there is any... but that can be fixed with some primer and blocking and sanding....

if u want to spend the extra amount of money for the REAL thing more power too u. no hate here

[mooboy]

I can respect a well made product. But as for whether i'm going to spend double or triple compared to a decent alternative? Or wait 4 months to get a JDM tyte kit? I'm sorry but no.

Should I pay major bank for some JDM kazama TC rods, or some decent ones from Raretrick?

If a knock-off is decent then I may very well consider buying it. Yes a lot of knock-offs suck ass (*cough* gtp *cough*) but the quality is improving immensely.

It's cool that V:S is being considered by so many people. I like Version: Select because its clean, relatively cheap, and I can get it quickly. That is how business should be conducted in the US. People can respect that.

As for carbon fiber hoods, I'm sorry but if you pay more than 300-500 for a hood you are nuts. I almost don't care how much engineering you put into it. If its lighter than stock, weaves arent f*cked up, and it has decent venting than its doing its job.

[Ian]

when you were a kid, did you wanna buy payless shoes or did you want air jordans?

is it still cool if my movado watch isnt really authenic?

so is it ok to have a "invader" body kit? (saying that it was cool to have a REAL veilside kit anyways lol)

[bing]

this thread is getting slightly ghey.

if the Original Manfuacturers want to eliminate the knock-offs they need to get some well-educated people to re-evaluate their marketing.

people WILL pay a premium price for original aero but there is always a threshold.

if the Original Aero was as easily obtained and supported (this is true of many parts, not just aero) at only a marginal price premium then this arguement would not exist.

if the Original manufacturer cries and says "theif" but doesnt change his offering (not the product, the whole offering including delivery / price / support) then he deserves to be left behind for not adapting.

there are many cases in all industries where companies go out of business for not adapting to the changing market.

not only do i use so-called "knock-offs" but i also build and sell "knock-offs" of aero and other parts.

if the original manufacturers were as fleunt in marketing, pricing, logisitics as they are in developing premium auto parts then i couldnt do this.

on the flip side, if i were working for one of the original manufacturers i COULD fight this phenomena... it isnt that hard. they just arent doing it right.

[bing]

BTW: wheels do get copied, forged an not forged.

in fact, you may notice that many of the "brand name" companies have several rims that are virtually identical.

there are hundreds of wheel brands, but far fewer wheel manufacturers... isnt that interesting?

[bing]

a few hours after my last post:

i have a question for you guys that is relevent here.

knock-off versus the REAL DEAL

example - Greddy Type S BOV

this is an actual picture i took of a knock-off and the real greddy i paid good $$$ for last year.



there is no reason for the knock off guys to have that additional buldge on the BOV if they are not badging it, leading me to beleive that these are unbadged greddy's. the casting marks are also the same on the other side.

QUESTION:

should we buy the original because it has a greddy sticker on it and because they supposedly designed it.

or

should we be upset that they are charging such a premium for the badged version when the knock-off is 1/3 the price for the same thing? in this case the difference between retail price and imported wholesale cost is upwards of $150 USD...

additionally:

are they truely providing value to the customer and should they be upset that people are willing to sacrifice brand image for dollar cost.

this example should eliminate the "quality" issue since it is entirely subjective and all around bullshit anyways.

[atom]

I'm sorry, but what the hell is this jibba jabba.

Originally Posted by bing

should we buy the original because it has a greddy sticker on it and because they supposedly designed it.

Yeah, you SHOULD.

Originally Posted by bing

should we be upset that they are charging such a premium for the badged version when the knock-off is 1/3 the price for the same thing? in this case the difference between retail price and imported wholesale cost is upwards of $150 USD...

Ever heard of development costs?

Originally Posted by bing

are they truely providing value to the customer and should they be upset that people are willing to sacrifice brand image for dollar cost.

this example should eliminate the "quality" issue since it is entirely subjective and all around bullshit anyways.

Guess what, perceived value isn't a justification for ripping companies off. I can't believe what this BS is coming to. People ripping companies off and trying to justify it with some moral highground. Guess what buddy you're not Robin Hood.

BTW I'm not trying to get on a high horse, I have a L2 quick release which is basically a ripoff of the Works Bell QR. Why did I get it? Cuz I'm cheap and I would never try to justify it any other way.

[Macadoshus]

In reference to those BOV's, I am pretty sure the GReddy logo is part of the casting, so that would lead me to believe they are two seperate castings. You could also go into quality if you wanted because different casting can have different quality, however, I will leave this subject alone because I largely think it is missing the point.

Often times when you see knock-offs they do replicate everything but the company logo, this is because it would be hard to argue from a legal perspective that you have the right to use someone else's trademark.

As I said I have no problem with someone making cheap good quality alternatives, I am all for it, there is a market for it and it would be stupid for someone not to address that market. However, when you are taking someone elses design, reproducing it, and undercutting their price it is hard to argue you are in the right. They spend alot of money on R&D and marketing to develop a brand image that sells their products, by duplicating their look you are leveraging they work have done and the money they have spent to establish that brand image. Beleive it or not this money has to be rolled up somewhere and that place is in the price of their product. Building a strong brand is not an easy feat and to counterfeit a product to use their brand image to your advantage is theft, plain and simple.

To speak to issue of generic aspirin vs. name brand aspirin, this is very simple issue. It has to do with the way patent and copyright law works. Copyrights and Patents do expire. The time they take to expire varys by industry. Once they expire you are welcome to duplicate them and sell them at whatever price point you like, as in the case of generic aspririn. During the period where the owner of a patent or a copyright has exclusive rights to it, they can choose to solely make that product or license their patent or copyright to others who wish to make the same product. I am sure their are plenty of aero manufacturers in Japan and elsewhere who have no intention of bringing their products over to the US and would be more than willing to license their designs to US manufacturers. This will most likely never happen though, as it is is just easier for a company to make a knock-off because copyright/patent is unlikely to be enforced.

[mr_240sx]

Originally Posted by bing

a few hours after my last post:

i have a question for you guys that is relevent here.

knock-off versus the REAL DEAL

example - Greddy Type S BOV

this is an actual picture i took of a knock-off and the real greddy i paid good $$$ for last year.



there is no reason for the knock off guys to have that additional buldge on the BOV if they are not badging it, leading me to beleive that these are unbadged greddy's. the casting marks are also the same on the other side.

QUESTION:

should we buy the original because it has a greddy sticker on it and because they supposedly designed it.

or

should we be upset that they are charging such a premium for the badged version when the knock-off is 1/3 the price for the same thing? in this case the difference between retail price and imported wholesale cost is upwards of $150 USD...

additionally:

are they truely providing value to the customer and should they be upset that people are willing to sacrifice brand image for dollar cost.

this example should eliminate the "quality" issue since it is entirely subjective and all around bullshit anyways.

you know what??? that knock-off greddy type s was probably built by greddy but it is very possible that it was defective or didnt pass their standards or could have had a tiny defect and probably sold it to a knock-off company for cheap.

[bing]

it is the manufacturers responsibility to recoup its development costs

NOT the consumers responsibility to make sure the developer makes a tidy profit.

as a side to that, i am all for shutting down open trade with asian economies, it has had a horrible affect on the North American economy but it is entirely the fault of the US government (Bill Clinton) for signing the bill and lieing about the motivations behind the bill.

it is also the fault of the North American consumer for not recognizing the affects of their purchasing habits

and the major producers, be they North american or not, for not foreseeing this turn of events and taking pre-emptive actions.

trying to fight consumer patterns by crying quality or whatever is a cop out.

the US gov let it happen, the North American consumer buys it up and the manufacture that loses as a result complains.

there are companies in the US and abroad that are still able to thrive regardless.

[SimpleS14]

This is some good reading.

Don't know what to really say about original vs. knock-offs that hasn't been said already. They will always be around, some are good and most are bad.

As for buying products from some Asian economies (or countries) being a bad thing....I will have to disagree with that (for the most part). Here is a very simple example...when Japan sells a Nissan car (bulit in Japan) to someone in the U.S....they (Japan) get U.S. dollars in return. U.S. dollars in Japan are good for one thing.....buying U.S. goods. So if you think about it...money (U.S. dollars) spent on imports will eventually comes back to the U.S.....which is good for our economy.

[s14srpilot]

Originally Posted by SimpleS14

Here is a very simple example...when Japan sells a Nissan car (bulit in Japan) to someone in the U.S....they (Japan) get U.S. dollars in return. U.S. dollars in Japan are good for one thing.....buying U.S. goods.

That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The name of the game is to minimize costs and maximize profits. Japanese companies are NOT limited to buying only U.S. goods. Just like any well managed company they take their money and REINVEST it for profit. Regarding your example, why would Nissan Japan use their profits to buy expensive U.S. goods if they can produce the same goods at equal quality at a lower price in another country? What they will do is try to make money on the exchange rate and buy the cheapest materials at the lowest cost. Guess what? In terms of the cheapest labor and cheapest costs the U.S. is NOT the first country to come to mind.

Labor and material costs are WAY cheaper in countries like China, the Philippines, Mexico, etc. so TONS of knock offs can be manufactured in these countries at MUCH LOWER costs and sold on ebay to lower income consumers and EVERYBODY can sport a short shifter, intake manifold, differential cover or whatever. That's the way it is whether anyone likes it or not.

[SimpleS14]

Japan is not only limited to buying U.S. goods...I should have clarified that. They can also buy assets in U.S. companies. If I foriegn country invest in an American company, that is good because it allows the company to expand and grow. Of course I'm making it seem simple (which it really is not)...but as I said before...the money will eventually come back to the U.S. (in more than one way).

[rrobe99999]

I think it is wrong for a company to make a mold from a part built by another company. But this is not my problem. I am glad there are cheaper alternative avaliable. Especially regarding OEM parts that are way overpriced. Nissan recovered the development cost for these parts by selling them on cars. Thats why I have a knockoff Ks wing and knockoff JDM style blinkers. I wish someone would make knockoff Zenki headlight covers at a resonable price (glass or plastic). The clear plastic ones are almost as much as new headlights and don't focus the beam properly.

[MadScientist]

Some people have said this is a retarded and stupid topic to start but it seems to have hit a nerve and has made a rather decent debate.
However, I have yet to see a valid reason to support a Kock-off Company!!

The inflated cost of the Original product is due to the cost of development, where as the cheep cost of the Knock-off is due to lack of.

If your major issue is cost, waiting, and possible breakage, then look at Hybrid materials, PFRP, etc... its cost more but doesn't break nearly as easy... and how many knock-off are you going to purchase and destroy before realizing you spent the cost of an Original Hybrid kit that you would still have (more than likely). I have a URAS type2 G+ for this very reason and I know the streets (and drivers...sheeesh!) in New Orleans are some of the worst in the country.

Now the HKS/ Greddy issue does make an interesting conversation about exploiting. Greddy obviously doesn't care what companies sell their products for, therefore creating a lowballed market and minimal proffit, but why should Greddy care when they are making money selling at Dealer cost, and the lowballing dealers are helping sling parts out the door for pennies.
Where as, HKS has more respect for their dealers and their product and tries to uphold its quality name. (Yes, some products like Turbo Kits are cheeper in Japan but this goes for Greddy, Apexi, Blitz, etc.. as well)

Take Nissan parts for example... this is perfect... Nissan/ Nismo Power Brace were not easy to obtain and Nissan Dealers sold (past) at $220. however as demand when up and Nismo established back in the US (so to speak) some Nismo Items because easier to obtain and cheeper. However Nissan dealers are only worried about themself and selling parts lower than Importers, such as myself, can obtain them for. they are taking a large cut in proffit but are slinging parts out the door to make up for the loss. The only upside to this is that I can get Nismo parts that Nissan Dealers have no access to, but then again, thats what I do.

Peace
Drew

[zenkiticks]

Originally Posted by MadScientist

Some people have said this is a retarded and stupid topic to start but it seems to have hit a nerve and has made a rather decent debate.
However, I have yet to see a valid reason to support a Kock-off Company!!

I still can't believe you think mosT "REAL" body kit companies don't rip off a factory design. Add a lip and make the openings a little bigger and call it their own. The s13 aero bumper is a great example. Their are several companies who's bumpers look almost identical.

[bing]

the issue is North American jobs

the US loses hundred of thousands of blue collar jobs every year. these are the jobs that fuel the consumer economy.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../walmart/view/

that is an important video.

it also conflicts with my apparent support of knock-offs. i dont support poor quality items, i support competition.

i also dont support the fact that people in Canada and the US are losing jobs, but there are many things that can be done by these companies and the governments to keep them competitive. if they dont do them then people should not be buying their products JUST to keep them in business.

if you arent offering value then you shouldnt be selling anything

[SimpleS14]

It's more like this.....when jobs are lost in one sector, more jobs are created in another....basically more jobs are created than lost. We are moving from manufacturing goods to providing services.....good example can be seen in IBM.

btw....I don't want to hijack this thread.

[HaLo]

Originally Posted by SimpleS14

It's more like this.....when jobs are lost in one sector, more jobs are created in another....basically more jobs are created than lost. We are moving from manufacturing goods to providing services.....good example can be seen in IBM.

btw....I don't want to hijack this thread.

Yup, an working myself for IBM, I can see a huge amount of service outsourcing to India and the Philippines.

[bing]

but what is that example?

alot of people alude to things without specifics...

Wal-mart justifies their exportation of American jobs by saying that they decrease the cost of living.

if thet decrease the cost of living by as much as the pay-cut that a father of 3 earns in a year because he lost his manufacturing job and now has to work at wal-mart then there was no point, it didnt help the economy. but it did take revenue away from the competition in a pretty shady fashion.

IBM sucks ass btw...

and as a side note, Microsoft hires programmers in India to complete code written by guys they hired in seattle because the indian guys do the same work for 1/4 of the yearly salary with no beenfits.

YAY microsoft... i bet after minor research you would find that IBM does the same thing.