New Garrett GTX2867r

[codyace]

Originally Posted by DPS14

So how are 740cc injectors holding up to the GTX2867? Still good or need to step it up to 850cc? What type of duty cycle are you guys seeing with 740s?

I'm still on 615cc's and it's VERY close to 100% DC now at big boost. Certainly more fuel being used compared to before

Originally Posted by Conrad 2NR

Or Garrett realise that not everyone is interested in running an internal gate but would still need to retain the 5 bolt housing and cast the turbine housing from their factory accordingly.

Still stinks that they couldn't offer a 'external' option for the housing. Not that it would be cheaper than having me/JPC weld the manifold for external gate though

Originally Posted by e1_griego

Well if you'd like to pay for a rebuild and a bottom end this weekend, then I'm game.

My car is an autox car, and I don't want to cut the fenders off to put 285s on it just yet

It's already going higher Inj. Duty Cycle (according to my PFC) than my gt2876 did @ 14psi. Tuning is taking place on a mustang, but I'll try to get back to the dynojet that I tuned the 2876 on to give a better comparison.

I'm with ya. DC and MAF v are both much higher. That only can mean more air

[e1_griego]

Since you're only a couple events in to autox, hold off on parts and just focus on the driving aspect.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by e1_griego

Since you're only a couple events in to autox, hold off on parts and just focus on the driving aspect.

True but I like turning wrenches just as much as I like turning the wheel. Building it and upgrading it is half of the experience for me. Not sure what I'm gonna do when it's "done"...

And I could always just run the turbo at low pressure until I get better and gradually work it up. I'll be sticking to 10psi or so at autox for a while and only bring out the big power for the occasional drag run.

[E30Napalm]

Originally Posted by e1_griego

The EFR doesn't bolt on, does it?

I am hitting up the dyno tomorrow hopefully so I should have something to post by the end of the week :fingerscrossed:

The EFR is a nightmare to work with. Tall, long and fasteners in the stupidest places. It has a "3 bolt rule".
To get to one bolt, you have to remove 2 other bolts. Once oriented for top mount, there is at least one bolt you can never get to without taking it all apart again to tighten that bolt.

[E30Napalm]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

Nope, not a bolt on except with an expensive fullrace manifold. I can however pick up a cheap topmount and make that work fairly easily. Rumor has it that the FWD sr20 manifold would work too.

FWD manifold wont work. Making it fit on a cheap top mount isnt "easy". The wastegate canister hits everything and the compressor housing is retarded.
If your dead set on an EFR buy the fullrace manifold and save yourself the pain.
Buy the Garrett and save yourself even more pain.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by E30Napalm

FWD manifold wont work. Making it fit on a cheap top mount isnt "easy". The wastegate canister hits everything and the compressor housing is retarded.
If your dead set on an EFR buy the fullrace manifold and save yourself the pain.
Buy the Garrett and save yourself even more pain.

Do you know for a fact that the FWD manifold doesn't work? Just wondering if I should take that as fact or opinion. And I said "fairly easily" because I realize there are likely going to be some quirks to it but presumably less so with top mount. And I think just about the only thing needed to make a bottom mount work is modifying the mani at the t25 flange so that it is angled a bit and the turbo is moved slightly away from the block. Well, that and a V-band elbow. Pretty sure that's what this guy did:
Efr powered sr20det startup! - YouTube

It's obvious that a GTX2867 is the easy choice (and still a great one performance-wise) but making the best choice is what I'm concerned about. I probably will wind up with GTX2867 anyway but for cost and reliability, not ease of use or performance. If I had a bunch of money that I could drop on a $1k full-race mani and replace my turbo if it blows then it would be a different story and I'd be leaning more towards EFR.

[E30Napalm]

I have a gti-r manifold on my shelf you can buy to confirm the fact it doesnt fit. Yeah ive seen that video too. ive also got a video of mine running on a top mount. in my shop. on my car. installed by me.
My manifold was less than 500 but modified to accomodate the efr's giant ass.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by E30Napalm

I have a gti-r manifold on my shelf you can buy to confirm the fact it doesnt fit. Yeah ive seen that video too. ive also got a video of mine running on a top mount. in my shop. on my car. installed by me.
My manifold was less than 500 but modified to accomodate the efr's giant ass.

You're the one who flipped a top mount to a bottom mount right? Decided to go top mount in the end?
And thanks for confirming the FWD manifold wont work.

e1_griego, any dyno updates?

[E30Napalm]

Attempts at bottom mount got to aggravating. Top mount slightly less so. The flange still had to be cut off and reattached. I had to change the flanges position on three axis's(sp?) so it would fit. The garrett was pretty much a drop on. You need the understand the EFR is big and uncooperative. The Full race price wasn't the issue, I'm a DIY'er. First I put this motor in a BMW. Then I made my own harness, attached a laminova liquid to air intercooler from a Cobalt SS, and made my own BBK using Dodge Stealth 4 piston calipers and rotors from an MG TF from britain. My diff is a Z3 BMW Torsen center with 4.27 gears from a euro 525i BMW. The entire hot pipe set up I have now I put together from Volvo, Saab, and junkyard intercooler pieces.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by E30Napalm

Attempts at bottom mount got to aggravating. Top mount slightly less so. The flange still had to be cut off and reattached. I had to change the flanges position on three axis's(sp?) so it would fit. The garrett was pretty much a drop on. You need the understand the EFR is big and uncooperative. The Full race price wasn't the issue, I'm a DIY'er. First I put this motor in a BMW. Then I made my own harness, attached a laminova liquid to air intercooler from a Cobalt SS, and made my own BBK using Dodge Stealth 4 piston calipers and rotors from an MG TF from britain. My diff is a Z3 BMW Torsen center with 4.27 gears from a euro 525i BMW. The entire hot pipe set up I have now I put together from Volvo, Saab, and junkyard intercooler pieces.

Lol, that's quite the car you've pieced together... Sounds like tons of fun.

[e1_griego]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

You're the one who flipped a top mount to a bottom mount right? Decided to go top mount in the end?
And thanks for confirming the FWD manifold wont work.

e1_griego, any dyno updates?

330/280 on the mustang. Was having boost creep issues so the boost is set lower than it was. I never had problems with my mbc (that I noticed) so going to try and troubleshoot a bit. Wg opens at 11psi and is creeping to 14psi by redline which is obviously not ideal.

The tune is safer than it was which was the primary purpose of retune to begin with . The orig tune was from my gt2876 two years ago which did 345/303 on a dynojet @14psi, so these new numbers seem right to me.

Gonna try to head back to the same dynojet for an apples to apples comparison, and hopefully get the boost creep addressed.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by e1_griego

330/280 on the mustang. Was having boost creep issues so the boost is set lower than it was. I never had problems with my mbc (that I noticed) so going to try and troubleshoot a bit. Wg opens at 11psi and is creeping to 14psi by redline which is obviously not ideal.

The tune is safer than it was which was the primary purpose of retune to begin with . The orig tune was from my gt2876 two years ago which did 345/303 on a dynojet @14psi, so these new numbers seem right to me.

Gonna try to head back to the same dynojet for an apples to apples comparison, and hopefully get the boost creep addressed.

I'm assuming that's whp/ftlbs, not ftlbs/whp?
And that's pretty great that a 9mm smaller compressor is about the same considering the creep and dyno differences. That really speaks well of Garrett's new billet design.

I look forward to your creep-free dynojet results!

[e1_griego]

Yeah, hp/tq.

Really the best part about the turbo is that if you apply throttle it makes *some* boost. A couple psi at 2k rpm really helps get things going. Full boost is still around 3500-3700 (vs 4200ish with the 2876) but it just seems much faster to get there.

Hoping that is more obvious with the dynojet runs.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by e1_griego

Yeah, hp/tq.

Really the best part about the turbo is that if you apply throttle it makes *some* boost. A couple psi at 2k rpm really helps get things going. Full boost is still around 3500-3700 (vs 4200ish with the 2876) but it just seems much faster to get there.

Hoping that is more obvious with the dynojet runs.

I'm glad to hear it does well in part throttle. That was a big concern for me and something I thought the EFR would have the advantage in considering it's lower inertia wheel. Looks like the GTX does well there too though. What about shifting? Does the boost hold up well between shifts?

And is there any way you could get us some time to torque info on your next run? I know codyace is a big fan of that and so am I. There just really isn't any better way to measure a car's response since rpm to boost or time to boost doesn't say anything directly about what kind of power the car is making. Also, I'd love to see an overlay of your 2867 graph on your 2876 graph. Judging by what you're saying, I'm guessing there's gonna be a big chunk of area from 2-4k or so where you're putting out a good amount more torque with the 2867.

[BlackZenkiS14]

What would you guys think about running a GTX2867 with stock cams and internally gated?

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by BlackZenkiS14

What would you guys think about running a GTX2867 with stock cams and internally gated?

You'll still have an awesomely fast car but about 30whp less awesome

I would however suggest some cams. Not only will you gain power but you can tailor the power to how/when you want it which is the real benefit IMO.

[BlackZenkiS14]

I was looking at the Tomei Poncams and the JWT S3 cams, which would be more beneficial to this size turbo? And which would would cater to faster spool? I really only want 350whp, I just want it as early as possible and sustainable. Im all about area under the curve.

[usdm180sx]

tomei procams will give you the most bang for the buck. 260 deg with 12mm lift and at $325 a pair cannot be beat

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by BlackZenkiS14

I was looking at the Tomei Poncams and the JWT S3 cams, which would be more beneficial to this size turbo? And which would would cater to faster spool? I really only want 350whp, I just want it as early as possible and sustainable. Im all about area under the curve.

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

tomei procams will give you the most bang for the buck. 260 deg with 12mm lift and at $325 a pair cannot be beat

The poncams will give you more low to mid power and the S3's will give you more mid to high. The procams usdm180sx suggested are also good but more like the S3's than the poncams. However, they're about $200 cheaper than S3's

[codyace]

Originally Posted by E30Napalm

I have a gti-r manifold on my shelf you can buy to confirm the fact it doesnt fit. Yeah ive seen that video too. ive also got a video of mine running on a top mount. in my shop. on my car. installed by me.
My manifold was less than 500 but modified to accomodate the efr's giant ass.

No FWD manifold will work on a RWD engine. They all interfere with the mount.

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

tomei procams will give you the most bang for the buck. 260 deg with 12mm lift and at $325 a pair cannot be beat

Pricewise you can't beat them...however powerwise you can't get better than the S3. Proven both N/A and Turbo to make the most torque (peak and average) and the most HP (peak and average) of them all. To some they can deal with the 10-15 lesser difference on both ends, but to me if you're willing to piss away 325, why not 500 (or find a used set from a FWD guy for 250 and go buckwild)

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

The poncams will give you more low to mid power and the S3's will give you more mid to high. The procams usdm180sx suggested are also good but more like the S3's than the poncams. However, they're about $200 cheaper than S3's

Pricewise you can't beat the the Tomei setup, b...however powerwise you can't get better than the S3 with the little poncam. Atop of that, even if you go with a ProCam setup, you're going to spend MORE money and still make less torque and power. Proven both N/A and Turbo to make the most torque (peak and average) and the most HP (peak and average) of them all. To some they can deal with the 10-15 lesser difference on both ends, but to me if you're willing to piss away 325, why not 500 (or find a used set from a FWD guy for 250 and go buckwild).

Call me the fanboy, but there is a reason the JWT S3/S4/C1 cams have (for more than a decade) been the cams of choice for the SR20.

[BlackZenkiS14]

If going the tomei vs. s3 route, what additional parts need to be installed along with the cams to make them work. retainers? Valve springs? Rocker arm stoppers? Etc... Im not sue which power band is more appealing to me now either. Ive always strived for low to mid range power, but after spemding some more time at the drag strip, it sure leaves me wanting more up top.

And what kind of additional power can you honestly expect from each set of cams?

[usdm180sx]

I don't think so in my case. I got some greddy valve springs for a killer deal with se crowed retainers so I'm set with valve train parts. HKS cams are soo hard to find now. I did find a set for $525 so yeah.

[codyace]

JWT S3 and S4 require no other additional valvetrain modification. Pon-Cams also do not, but PRO-Cams do.

In the grand scheme, think of where your car 'lives' in regard to RPM. I too used to think the 3k-5k area was king, but in the grand scheme of things, I'm never below 4000/4500 on track...so why build around an area that I don't use? I'm all about response, but if you're only gaining 100-200 rpm of spoool, and disregarding 25-30 hp up top, you're doing it wrong.

[nash-singapore]

hey Codyace, eventhou jwt s3 cams does not require additional parts for it to function, what would you recommend me to change along the valve train? valve springs? retainers? im developing the vtc ticking noise now and gonna get a new vtc intake gear soon. Is it really worth it to not change the cam gears?

[jr_ss]

Correct me if im wrong Cody but, I believe JWT S3 cams do not retain the VTC function... You honestly cannot and will not beat the VTC function down low with a set of non-VTC cams. It hits hard and makes gobs of torque down low where you want it. I've never understood why guys want to remove that function.

[nash-singapore]

hmm i remember that jwt s3 does retain the vtc function as it is direct set of drop in cams. I read it in the 2871r thread here in zilvia too jr_ss.

Sorry codyace what is the other forum for the fwd sr20's? looking into a used sets of s3 :P

[BlackZenkiS14]

I'm pretty excited about this turbo though, Im glad to see people are having success with the new GTX stuff over the 2871.

Where are you guys getting the 2867 from? And where do I get a proper turbine side for it? Internal gated turbine side available?

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by BlackZenkiS14

I'm pretty excited about this turbo though, Im glad to see people are having success with the new GTX stuff over the 2871.

Where are you guys getting the 2867 from? And where do I get a proper turbine side for it? Internal gated turbine side available?

It uses the same turbine housing as other GT28XX turbos, so yes, there are internally gated options. This also means that anywhere selling GT28XX parts will have what you need. ATP would probably be a good start.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by nash-singapore

hey Codyace, eventhou jwt s3 cams does not require additional parts for it to function, what would you recommend me to change along the valve train? valve springs? retainers? im developing the vtc ticking noise now and gonna get a new vtc intake gear soon. Is it really worth it to not change the cam gears?

Way back when, I would have said to disregard VTC and go from there...but now that you have VTC friendly big boy cams, it makes no sense to ditch it, as the cams work.

JWT S3 cams require no (zero/zilch/nada/nothing) additional modification on a stock valvetrain. Again, for over 10 years guys have been banging valvetrains off 7850/8000 RPM with them, and never having any spring or valvetrain issue (maybe aside from missed shifts and making rocker arm salad)

Originally Posted by jr_ss

Correct me if im wrong Cody but, I believe JWT S3 cams do not retain the VTC function... You honestly cannot and will not beat the VTC function down low with a set of non-VTC cams. It hits hard and makes gobs of torque down low where you want it. I've never understood why guys want to remove that function.

JWT Now offers VTC happy S3 cams. It's not so much in the cam, but more in the drive function on the end of them. As I said above, I used to be the fan of saying 'ditch it' but if you have a working system, it hurts nothing to retain.

Originally Posted by nash-singapore

Sorry codyace what is the other forum for the fwd sr20's? looking into a used sets of s3 :P

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Any of those should help you out. Just remember you want regular S3's, not S3M (mechanical) or the S3's for Roller Rocker Engines (b15's and newer p11's)

Originally Posted by BlackZenkiS14

I'm pretty excited about this turbo though, Im glad to see people are having success with the new GTX stuff over the 2871.
Where are you guys getting the 2867 from? And where do I get a proper turbine side for it? Internal gated turbine side available?

As stated, it reuses the original housing, so yes itnernal gate. Unless motorsports driven, I'm not sure I'd change things, but for a track guy...it's worth the penny. The time into boost is reduced like mad.

[LuckyX2]

On the topic of turbine housings, what's the going rate to have a gt25xx turbine housing machined into a gt28xx housing?
I'm looking to machine a gt2560 specifically.

Originally Posted by codyace

The time into boost is reduced like mad.

Got any solid numbers on that? I'm curious exactly how much of a difference an external gate makes since I've never really known for sure. What kinda hp/tq did you pick up too?
And is the time into boost difference just because of internal wastegates blowing open slightly before boost? If so, would that be fixed with a good boost controller, a stiffer wastegate and/or preload on the wastegate?