General politics discussion. Keep it civil.

[Future240]

https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-te...482483df6e4683

“Go in there! Go in there!” nearby women shouted at the officers soon after the attack began, said Juan Carranza, 24, who saw the scene from outside his house, across the street from Robb Elementary School in the close-knit town of Uvalde. Carranza said the officers did not go in.

Javier Cazares, whose fourth grade daughter, Jacklyn Cazares, was killed in the attack, said he raced to the school when he heard about the shooting, arriving while police were still gathered outside the building.

Upset that police were not moving in, he raised the idea of charging into the school with several other bystanders.

“Let’s just rush in because the cops aren’t doing anything like they are supposed to,” he said. “More could have been done.”

“They were unprepared,” he added.

[nick_d_240sx]

No more gun free zones. Protect schools like politicians and banks. It's not hard.
That's too easy of an answer though, useless gun law proposals and meaningless discussion about mental illness should do the trick.

[BryanSayWhat]

Here we go with the "80-90% of Americans want Universal Background Checks" BS in the headlines again.

You can not have Universal Background Checks without first having a complete registry of all firearms. They knew this when they enacted the "Gun Control Act of 1968" and thus why a "compromise" (not a loophole) was made for private sales in the same state.

I'm also with nick_d_240sx. These lone wolf sub-humans aren't single-handedly taking control of banks, so why not implement similar safety measures? We've sent highly trained armed professionals around the world in the name of "The War on Drugs/ Terror", so why can't we do the same for are schools? That way you don't arm the teachers and all of the "extensive training and background checks" are done with the armed professionals (with the main goal of being a deterrent for would be assailants).

[KA24DESOneThree]

Return on investment of armed guards at schools is low. There have been 74 kids aged 0-14 killed with firearms at schools since 2000. Somewhere around 106k elementary schools in the US.

You're talking tens of billions in pay and benefits. Making a world where kids grow up with armed security in their school despite the incredibly low probability of violence. The high school I went to already looks more like a prison without armed guards. Kids don't need that shit- it fills them with dread and apprehension. This isn't something to be scared of, not in terms of probability. Prepare the schools otherwise, run drills, but do it because you care about the kids, not because you want to scare them.

Spree shooters have hatred in their hearts. They're loners and either psych themselves up or find cheerleaders online. Typically narcissists. Encouraged by cultural icons like the Joker- famous misanthropes are their jam. Driven by a lack of moral values they see, by online depictions of moral decay. The Sandy Hook shooter thought he was saving the children by killing them before they understood the moral decay they were growing into (oh, and he might have been a pedo as well).

They see guns differently than the rest of us. To them, they're gateways to omnipotence, they're masculinity, they're fetishized as objects through which they can finally have power to replace the powerlessness of their childhood.

PIVOT!

In certain countries, children are taught respect and to clean up after themselves and their classmates. Education is more equal between those from wealthy backgrounds and those from poor backgrounds (in the case of Japan, inequity is roughly half of America's inequity). Teachers move from school to school and develop a larger base of student knowledge. Children are taught respect and manners and critical thinking. Some countries ban homeschooling because children have a right to knowledge from multiple sources.

We grow up being taught, in good nationalistic fashion, about the greatness of our country. About how the United States is the best and more free country on Earth. Then we open our eyes and we start seeing the inequality, the inequity, the USAPATRIOT act, the illegal wars, the civil asset forfeiture, the court system that would rather bury you than see you reach your trial date, the Bureau of Reclamation, the Army Corps of Engineers, the divide between rich and poor, the systemic racism, the dumb, angry assholes who can vote. Instead of saying, "you can be the next best generation because we prepared you well," we say, "good fucking luck."

That's not good enough for our kids.

[BryanSayWhat]

All great points.

Does anyone have any inputs on modern schooling in general needing a complete and total revamp? Or, is it still not antiquated and we just need to better control everything outside of it?

[Om1kron]

Originally Posted by BryanSayWhat

All great points.

Does anyone have any inputs on modern schooling in general needing a complete and total revamp? Or, is it still not antiquated and we just need to better control everything outside of it?

my kid is going to be annoying and woke as fuck since they want to continue teaching white washing in school. I'll teach them everything school wont if I don't end up homeschooling.

[KA24DESOneThree]

So it turns out that, in 2018, two teens were arrested while making plans to shoot up a junior high in Uvalde. Their ages are similar to this shooter's, but information is scarce on the ground. LINK: https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...s-12882042.php

Edit: In this article, the editor's update note specifically says this shooter is not one of the two previously arrested for planning a shooting: https://www.kens5.com/article/news/c.../273-548565605

Is this another Parkland, where law enforcement absolutely failed at its job? The reports coming out now are fucking wild.

[CrimsonRockett]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

Is this another Parkland, where law enforcement absolutely failed at its job? The reports coming out now are fucking wild.

Still waiting for the pro Trump / republican crowd to justify this one.

Why did it take them over an hour to breach the classroom? Because “they could’ve been shot”? Maybe they should reconsider their career choice if they’re worried about being shot at.

Why did it take a border patrol agent leaving a diner on his lunch break and driving 40 miles to stop the shooter?

For a city that spends 40% of its budget on their police department, this type of response is an absolute joke.

I was under the impression that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun was a good guy with a gun.

[BryanSayWhat]

Originally Posted by CrimsonRockett

Still waiting for the pro Trump / republican crowd to justify this one.

Why did it take them over an hour to breach the classroom? Because ?they could?ve been shot?? Maybe they should reconsider their career choice if they?re worried about being shot at.

Why did it take a border patrol agent leaving a diner on his lunch break and driving 40 miles to stop the shooter?

For a city that spends 40% of its budget on their police department, this type of response is an absolute joke.

I was under the impression that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun was a good guy with a gun.

Not "pro Trump / republican crowd", but...

Pro-Gun people have been saying for a long time, that you can't always count on the police to protect you. Thus why they own firearms. Anti-Gunners of course called them paranoid.

For some reason Anti-Gunners are trying to use that as "Oh look, those cops/ SWAT and SRO's couldn't stop that guy, so neither could anyone else with a gun!". As usual they are projecting that people with firearms lack the "mindset" of protecting themselves, or others.

[CrimsonRockett]

Originally Posted by BryanSayWhat

Not "pro Trump / republican crowd", but...

Pro-Gun people have been saying for a long time, that you can't always count on the police to protect you. Thus why they own firearms. Anti-Gunners of course called them paranoid.

For some reason Anti-Gunners are trying to use that as "Oh look, those cops/ SWAT and SRO's couldn't stop that guy, so neither could anyone else with a gun!". As usual they are projecting that people with firearms lack the "mindset" of protecting themselves, or others.

The majority of us are aware that we can’t count on police for anything when it comes to our personal belongings or safety. What we can count on them for is harassing us over trivial shit, power-tripping, and being trigger happy.

To be clear, I’m not part of the anti-gun side. A complete and total ban on guns does not completely solve our issues. Plenty of illegally sourced firearms coming into the US through various channels.

Having plenty of responsible gun owning friends as well as current/former military friends, I’m well aware that you can own these things without being a complete douchebag spewing “muh rights” and “muh freedumbs”. Our country is filled with more than enough people willing to compromise if it means finding common ground for our own as well as our families safety.

One of the stupidest ideas being arming our teachers. Sure, let’s give our overworked, underpaid, and undersupplied teachers firearms and expect them to learn proper firearm safety and tactical response in the event of another active shooter situation. Every single one of us can think back to our childhoods and name a teacher that under no circumstances should EVER own a gun, let alone have it in the same room as our kids.

[BryanSayWhat]

Originally Posted by CrimsonRockett

One of the stupidest ideas being arming our teachers. Sure, let?s give our overworked, underpaid, and undersupplied teachers firearms and expect them to learn proper firearm safety and tactical response in the event of another active shooter situation. Every single one of us can think back to our childhoods and name a teacher that under no circumstances should EVER own a gun, let alone have it in the same room as our kids.

Based purely on my public schooling experience, I do agree with you. I've never been in a smaller private school, so armed teachers might be better suited for that environment?

Obviously, a lot of people can't afford private schooling and most parents can't accommodate their child being schooled from home (even if it was provided for free from the Government).

These recent events create an unfortunate stalemate on both sides of the argument. As either solution would take a massive amount of money and physical effort to produce actual results.

[KA24DESOneThree]

A Princeton study said a decade ago that democracy is dead, long live oligopoly... and I'm fairly certain we've strayed further from representation, not closer.

I'd be down for a mandatory waiting period on purchases by 18-20 year olds and would be willing to explore the idea of licensing for center-fire semi-auto rifles purchased by that same group. The licensing would have to be fair, inexpensive, and a low bar to cross.

Why am I alright with this? I'm not, but gun owners don't really have many choices. Pressure is mounting, so the smart thing to do is get ahead of requirements with our own input.

I think, though, that gun owners need to be willing to compromise on mental health (i.e. we're going to need to have some form of universal healthcare) and also need to compromise on the fact that there's some massive spending that needs to happen in areas where community advancement is low.

[Phlip]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

A Princeton study said a decade ago that democracy is dead, long live oligopoly... and I'm fairly certain we've strayed further from representation, not closer.

I'd be down for a mandatory waiting period on purchases by 18-20 year olds and would be willing to explore the idea of licensing for center-fire semi-auto rifles purchased by that same group. The licensing would have to be fair, inexpensive, and a low bar to cross.

Why am I alright with this? I'm not, but gun owners don't really have many choices. Pressure is mounting, so the smart thing to do is get ahead of requirements with our own input.

I think, though, that gun owners need to be willing to compromise on mental health (i.e. we're going to need to have some form of universal healthcare) and also need to compromise on the fact that there's some massive spending that needs to happen in areas where community advancement is low.

We live in a world where a guy told NPR at the NRA Convention that a few dead children here and there were a necessary evil; basically the cost of doing business in order to keep the second amendment untouched. When the discourse is reduced to the murder of former fetuses (<-- see what I did there?), compromise is no more

[Future240]

Originally Posted by Phlip

We live in a world where a guy told NPR at the NRA Convention that a few dead children here and there were a necessary evil; basically the cost of doing business in order to keep the second amendment untouched. When the discourse is reduced to the murder of former fetuses (<-- see what I did there?), compromise is no more

Pro life!!!!!!

Until you are born, then you own your own. Better pull yourself up by your diaper straps.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by Phlip

We live in a world where a guy told NPR at the NRA Convention that a few dead children here and there were a necessary evil; basically the cost of doing business in order to keep the second amendment untouched. When the discourse is reduced to the murder of former fetuses (<-- see what I did there?), compromise is no more

Aren't dead children a necessary evil of policing in the United States? A necessary evil of the drug war in the United States? A necessary evil of the low bar for entry to drive in the United States? A necessary evil of the paid healthcare system in the United States? A necessary evil of being the world police?

I'm being kinda flippant but still... that's the word of a single idiot at a convention run by a group that literally supported Reagan as a beacon of freedom after he sent a letter supporting the assault weapon ban in 1994.

Dead children are a constant in American society. Infant mortality rates are rising here as they're falling in other industrialized nations. Children are less mentally well here than in other industrialized nations and kill themselves at a shocking rate now. We're still dealing with childhood poverty and hunger and obesity and food deserts and lack of access to equitable education at higher rates than our so-called equals on the world stage. We're in a backslide while they're strengthening.

[BryanSayWhat]

Originally Posted by KA24DESOneThree

that's the word of a single idiot at a convention run by a group that literally supported Reagan as a beacon of freedom after he sent a letter supporting the assault weapon ban in 1994.

This is the irony of the left condemning the NRA. The NRA has two (2) sides. The "organization" and it's "members".

NRA as an "organization" is actually very much for "AWB, limited capacity, compromises and etc.". It's the "members" that actually get the NRA to not compromise on "certain" issues.

One of the best examples was the ban on Military Surplus 7N6 5.45x39mm. The ATF reclassified 7N6 as "armor piercing" due to one (1) company supposedly importing one (1) AK "pistol" that could shoot 5.45. The NRA and it's members just let this happen, because 5.45 was/ is somewhat of a niche caliber (but it was extremely cheap to buy and shoot).

The ATF then tried to do the same thing with SS109/ M855 NATO 5.56x45mm (what the vast majority of AR-15's are chambered to shoot). It was the actual "NRA members" in this case that were able to make the NRA step up and stall the Obama Administration from doing so.

[mav1178]

my only contribution:

I'm ok with people owning AR-15 type weapons as long as the legal age for owning a gun with more than 10 rounds is raised to 21. Typically this ends up being limited to non-handguns.

not going to stop things but at least it makes it slower/more costly to have the capacity to shoot that many bullets in a short period of time.

sort of like FPS games, you start off with basic weapons and get upgrades as you progress. newbs can't just buy the biggest gun without qualifying to own it.

Edit: I'm a realist. I understand liberals will not get what they want. I understand conservatives will not get what they want. Both need to compromise a bit, so raising the age limit for high capacity or high caliber weapons is the best short term middle ground. "Assault weapons ban" will get nowhere, nor will patchwork "ban" laws on the state level that serve to antagonize/polarize the masses even more. But until something is actually done, we can only just repeat what is posted on The Onion, where there is literally a satirical article about "the pros and cons of letting children die"

https://www.theonion.com/the-pros-an...die-1848983842

[KA24DESOneThree]

That's where the centerfire distinction should come into effect.

Rimfire rounds are all relatively ineffective on people (.22WMR and .17HMR are both fairly deadly in the vitals) and are hilariously ineffective against even the most mundane of body armor. Rimfire, by nature of construction, is less reliable (in terms of failures to fire) than centerfire and also by nature of construction doesn't feed as well unless it's a revolver or tube magazine.

[Future240]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gun-s...b0415d4d8a8d06

[BryanSayWhat]

If I absolutely had to compromise (meaning further talk of bans/ restrictions are over). I would be ok with the minimum age being increased to 21 for magazine feed rifles/ shotguns. This would mean that at 18 you could still purchase, or possess a rifle/ shotgun with an integrated magazine, or tube up to 10rds. This would still give adults 18-20 the means to protect themselves and enjoy recreational shooting, or hunting.

For "all" firearm purchases to be 21, or older... I'd only support it if they also increased the minimum age of joining the Military and bank loans to 21 as well (increasing the driving age to 18 could also be thrown in).

Non of the above matters though, because the "current" Democratic Party will never give up on stopping further Gun Reform.

"The National Firearms Act" wasn't enough... "The Federal Firearms Act" wasn't enough... "The Gun Control Act" wasn't enough... "The Firearm Owners Protection Act" wasn't enough... "The Brady Act" wasn't enough...

Damn, that sure is a lot of compromising that gun owners have done in the past 84yrs.

[Future240]

Or you can limit purchases to those under 21 to shot guns and bolt action rifles only. Teens can shoot at shooting ranges only or not at all.

[nick_d_240sx]

Yea, Americans have it so rough, such a shithole country. GTFO.

Teens can shoot at shooting ranges only or not at all.

I went hunting as a teen along with nearly all of my friends. We all attended hunter safety to be allowed to carry a rifle for hunting.

https://myodfw.com/articles/hunter-e...y-registration

...useless gun law proposals and meaningless discussion about mental illness should do the trick.

[Future240]

Originally Posted by nick_d_240sx

Yea, Americans have it so rough, such a shithole country. GTFO.



I went hunting as a teen along with nearly all of my friends. We all attended hunter safety to be allowed to carry a rifle for hunting.

https://myodfw.com/articles/hunter-e...y-registration

As did I. That is why i said

Or you can limit purchases to those under 21 to shot guns and bolt action rifles only.

Let me expound upon that second part. When I say shoot at shooting ranges, I mean semi auto rifles. We can raise the age limit to buy a semi auto rifle to 21 but bolt action and pump shot guns to those that are under.

[Phlip]

More thinking, more praying. People will keep getting shot up otherwise!

[BryanSayWhat]

Originally Posted by Phlip

More thinking, more praying. People will keep being victims of violence otherwise!

Fixed that for you. People always seem to leave out the fact that the US in general has always had a violence problem.

See for yourself: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ta-table-8.xls

In 2019 you were 4x more likely to die from "Knives or cutting instruments" than "Rifles" (that includes all types of rifles not just semi-auto ones). Yes, I'm aware that it's more difficult to commit mass stabbings, but it still shows why people in this country want to have the upper hand when protecting themselves and others with "semi-automatic rifles".

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by BryanSayWhat

Fixed that for you. People always seem to leave out the fact that the US in general has always had a violence problem.

See for yourself: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ta-table-8.xls

In 2019 you were 4x more likely to die from "Knives or cutting instruments" than "Rifles" (that includes all types of rifles not just semi-auto ones). Yes, I'm aware that it's more difficult to commit mass stabbings, but it still shows why people in this country want to have the upper hand when protecting themselves and others with "semi-automatic rifles".

while I agree with the need for self protection, here's also something sobering:

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/22/10943...th-in-children

so should we just arm children also? Or make sure those parents are armed properly? Or have sentient child protecting drones/robots?

this argument can keep going but in the mean time the segment of the population unable to defend themselves are dying because adults can't figure out a solution

like the article said, cars have been safer because of a heavy push from agencies like NTHSA so deaths from accidents have been dropping. meanwhile deaths in children from firearms are 65% homicides (mostly small hand guns) and we keep talking in circles.

yay us.

[Future240]

Originally Posted by mav1178

while I agree with the need for self protection, here's also something sobering:

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/22/10943...th-in-children

so should we just arm children also? Or make sure those parents are armed properly? Or have sentient child protecting drones/robots?

this argument can keep going but in the mean time the segment of the population unable to defend themselves are dying because adults can't figure out a solution

like the article said, cars have been safer because of a heavy push from agencies like NTHSA so deaths from accidents have been dropping. meanwhile deaths in children from firearms are 65% homicides (mostly small hand guns) and we keep talking in circles.

yay us.

You hit upon a good point here. Handguns are responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun deaths. Yet all people want to talk about are "assault rifles".

Like Crimson said, we need to address the base issue here. Mental health, low wages, poor education, poverty etc.

As the owner of more than a few fire arms I think raising age limit for semi auto rifles to 21. 18 you can buy bolt action and shot guns only.

[deolio]

Originally Posted by Future240

Like Crimson said, we need to address the base issue here. Mental health, low wages, poor education, poverty etc.

So what the "mass shooting crisis" solution boils down to is: not solvable in this fuckin' country, buckaroo!


As long as this country is convinced that profit maximization and quality of life are mutually exclusive, things will continue to deteriorate.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Future240

You hit upon a good point here. Handguns are responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun deaths. Yet all people want to talk about are "assault rifles".

Like Crimson said, we need to address the base issue here. Mental health, low wages, poor education, poverty etc.

As the owner of more than a few fire arms I think raising age limit for semi auto rifles to 21. 18 you can buy bolt action and shot guns only.

yeah so I'm just wanting *some* steps taken in the right direction.
No one is talking about banning handguns. Raising the age limit for any gun with more than 10 rounds or a rifle that is not bolt action to 21 is a reasonable step, in line with the thought process behind an age-21 limit for buying alcohol

beyond that, if people don't want to put restrictions on guns then do the next best thing: increase funding for mental health, poverty, etc

oh wait, those are handouts. we can't do those things... we'll just repeat this in a few weeks/months/years

like Tupac said, we have money for wars but we can't feed the poor.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Originally Posted by mav1178

while I agree with the need for self protection, here's also something sobering:

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/22/10943...th-in-children

That link is to a report that's completely and totally disingenuous and the link truly pisses me off every time it's posted.

A child is not 18. A child is not 19. A child is a pre-pubescent human. The goalposts were moved and almost literally everyone grabbed it and ran. It specifically says "among children and adolescents," but child means "pre-pubescent" and adolescent means "in the process of transitioning from a child into an adult."

NPR specifically and pointedly drops the "and adolescents," as have multiple other news organizations. To me, that changes the tone of the conversation from one of journalism to one of opinion.

Homicide is in the top three leading causes of death for 1-4 year olds. It is not in the 5-9 and 10-14 range. For 1-4, it's accidents, congenital malformations, deformations, and chromosomal abnormalities, and assault. For 5-9, it's accidents, cancer, and congenital malformations, deformations, and chromosomal abnormalities. For 10-14, it's accidents, suicide, and cancer. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/child-health.htm

More than 1,000 0-14 year olds will die in car crashes this year.

Plenty of teenagers can defend themselves because they have stolen guns. Surprise, those are also the teens who are getting killed. If you want to get these kids (used colloquially) to stop killing each other, you have to fix the root causes of the violence. We're at least one generation away from correcting the violence once we correct the root causes of the violence.