So, who has the power?

[ronmcdon]

I have no problem with this law.
(not endorsing or condemning)

Every time I visited Mexico in the past (when passports weren't required) & returned back to the US,
customs would ask me the same.
having grown up overseas & having an accent,
there are often presumptions but none that can't be cleared.
It's not a big deal at all to me & I can appreciate the caution.

they are just taking extra steps to enforce law that's probably already there.
(don't know the specifics in immigration & AZ state law so I'm speculating here).

For better or worse,
I'm also all for respecting the fact that diff states (and counties, cities, etc) are entitled to some degree of legal automony.
As long as the ppl vote it in, it isnt ruled unconsititutional by courts, then it should hold imo.
States shouldn't have to change their laws b/c ppl outside don't like it.

I think ppl are going to be split here not so much by heritage than by political outlook.
You will always get ppl who are generally pro illegal immigrants & those who are not.
Let's not make this into something childish please.

[BustedS13]

shit's fucked, brah. shit's fucked.

[revat619]

I don't have a problem with it. The fact is, if you're here legally, this shit shouldn't even bother you.

And as far as the whole "Well i dont wanna be hassled just because i'm mexican." thing, ummmm yeah.....as a black male in America, i have a hard time feeling sympathetic toward your plight. I've got "probable cause" as soon as i walk out my front door and or operate a motor vehicle....

[ESmorz]

Can't believe it's taken this long...

[J3123MY]

Just great.... giving more power to the police.

[Aki180sx]

Originally Posted by J3123MY

Just great.... giving more power to the police.

For a really good cause

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/us/23border.html
FOXNews.com - Illegal Immigrant Suspected in Murder of Arizona Rancher

this law is long overdue and I hope after this one passes others will follow.

My girlfriends parents came from Mexico legally and we were having a conversation about this a few days ago both her parents said they would gladly carry documentation proving they were now legal tax paying proud Americans if that's what it takes.

[imotion s14]

I'm against it on the grounds that it violates the 4A.

[rb25_s13*CHUKI]

Funny thing Is I see a bunch of mexico mexico. Did you guys not know that there Is ALOT of illegal Asian people here as well! Ooops did I say that! Please don't be offended ASian people! Lol Please be offended!

Probly some of them popping outta front clips n shit. Hide them Inside sr20's n rb's

I don't care about any of this just be EQUAL and not only talk about mexico. There Is plenty of other Illegals here as well.

I can only target asian people as well. just like all of you are targeting hispanic people.

If you REALLY want to get Into being in the wrong land. Then white people please leave. This land belonged to Native americans and three states were mexico. So um yea. Don't even get me started. This Is the last post I'll be posting In here.

[5pecialist]

Interesting that this thread is titled "who has the power", instead of asking who is right or wrong. Is this how people see things today, as getting their way rather than doing the right thing? I hope not

[HalveBlue]

Who has the power?



I think America is the land of illusion. You're fooling yourself if you think this country can function without illegals.

This is a complex issue and knee jerk reactions like Arizona's Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act do nothing to address the underlying fundamentals there of.

Honestly, I just believe there's a lot of (thinly veiled) xenophobia in America against (non-English speaking) brown people.

But their food sure tastes great though!

[Geno750]

Originally Posted by theicecreamdan

I'm looking through the Constitution. I don't see anything about "AMERICANS," "LEGAL AMERICANS" or citizen or etc...

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I don't believe that having brown skin gives probable cause to being an illegal.

Who here has lost a job to an illegal immigrant? If employers were held responsible and forced to pay anybody, even an illegal, then you aren't going to be losing any jobs to illegals.

Sounds like you haven't made it to the 14th amendment. "The people" as used in the constitution refers to citizens of the United States. Otherwise it would read "everyone" now wouldn't it?

I don't want to see amnesty given to these kinds of people, make them go through the legal channels. I'd even say recreate the DMZ between North and South Korea between Mexico and the US. That would at least slow the inflow down.

[BustedS13]

[rb25_s13*CHUKI]

YouTube - Public Enemy - Fight The Power

[payne219]

white people are now a minority... im sitting in college class right now, everyone around me is speaking a language other than english.

WTF! every border state should have some sort of law like this

[Brian]

Originally Posted by 5pecialist

Interesting that this thread is titled "who has the power", instead of asking who is right or wrong. Is this how people see things today, as getting their way rather than doing the right thing? I hope not

Yes, who has the power? (also, come on.... people sue over the dumbest shit these days. Of course people do whatever they want, rather than doing the right thing. It's sad, but that's what happened.)

Does the US Law Enforcement have the power to ask the question, "Are you here legally"?

Do the people that are here illegally have the power to STOP the US Law Enforcement from asking such an ...... "insane" question?





Some of the arguments here are nothing more than a slippery slope. Slippery slope is not a valid argument. "oh if they do this, there will be no stop to what they do!" nope. false. bullshit.

[SRS BZNS]

This is going to sound really bad cause as I type of it all I can think of is th e nzai regime but why not deny non citizens certain rights. Also to start off with its not just mexicans that are hear illegally, there are people from all over the world here illegally taking oppurtunities away from people who live in the US and pay to do so.

Why not have hospitals deny assistance to people who can not prove they are a US citizen or citizen of another country with a right to be in the US. Sure there would be life or death instances where you wouldnt have time for that but once you found out deport that person.

Deny them the ability to get a drivers license, make stronger rules and punishments for people caught employing them. Deport them to somewhere awful. Stick a gun in their hand and dump them off in afghanastan or something, once word got out that you had to go to war for the country you snuck into in order to stay I bet they would stop

[SRS BZNS]

Originally Posted by Brian

Yes, who has the power?

Does the US Law Enforcement have the power to ask the question, "Are you here legally"?

Do the people that are here illegally have the power to STOP the US Law Enforcement from asking such an ...... "insane" question?





Some of the arguments here are nothing more than a slippery slope. Slippery slope is not a valid argument.

From situations I have been and and witnessed the US law enforcement has the power to ask anything they want.

I comes down to you have the right to not answer them, at which point they can legally detain you under suspicion of BLAH BLAH BLAH until they get their answer.

As always you are innocent till proven guilty

[Brian]

Also, I completely understand that many different illegal people are here. I made this thread hoping people would understand that also.

It may be your mom, cousin, friend, mechanic, etc. that is here illegally. So, I hope people think about that in their answers.

[sirfallsalot243]

I think there should be a penalty to non-citizens who have a kid on American soil.

Yeah yeah, c'mon over and pop one out- they cant send you home then!

[IIIXziuR]

(I think Smorz bro's pic isn't working?)
BUT>>>>




But seriously I am going to have to agree with BustedS13 on this one.

[drift freaq]

I completely see that its not just Mexican. Though one cannot deny the problem with Mexico is larger than other countries because they share a border with us.

To ignore that fact or pay no attention to it is to be ignorant.

People can cry about the focus being on Mexicans/hispanics all they want. Fact is that is the easiest way to get in and its a lot harder for Asians to get in illegally, let alone get away with staying.

I am sorry but like a member above said being of a culture that has seen discrimination far worse than this. I have no sympathy for people who insist on not playing by the rules.

For the people that say we cannot run without illegals. Its plain and simple and I already pointed it out earlier. Give the illegals that come here to work i.e. field hands, food service workers etc.. they right to apply for a seasonal work permit. Have them adhere to requirements to stay and possibly gain resident alien status and then through proper channels citizenship.

Blanket amnesty is bullshit. Oh and for the people crying, I have Japanese friends who have lived here and want to stay and are willing to work. Though without a degree in a highly specialized field they have to go home. Japan is supposed to be on favored nation status and its easier for hispanics to come here and stay.

So anyone crying about Asians LOL . You have no idea how hard it is for them to come here and stay compared to hispanics.

As for who has the power question, it all depends on the states, Liberal democrats seem to have the power here in California and they actively seek out the hispanic vote to bolster that power. So the people who shout the loudest and have numbers in a particular state are more likely to have the power to influence law.

People who cry about Nazi style regime with paper checks and stringent stuff have no idea how bad that shit can be. We are far from it. Just talk to anyone who lived in the Eastern block under the Soviet regime to get an idea.

It is good to be diligent about rights. Though it also good to diligent about proper immigration.

60-70 years ago people of my heritage were considered a minority and suffered, indignity, discrimination, etc.....
They came in legally, they worked hard and today they are throughout corporate and political America and are considered white people. They were not when they came here.

Its plain and simple do the things the right way, become an American and be proud of it and things will change over time.
Crying about it not being fair now. Shit that has happened to every immigrant culture that has come to this country. Get in line.

[HalveBlue]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

60-70 years ago people of my heritage were considered a minority and suffered, indignity, discrimination, etc.....
They came in legally, they worked hard and today they are throughout corporate and political America and are considered white people. They were not when they came here.

Its plain and simple do the things the right way, become an American and be proud of it and things will change over time.
Crying about it not being fair now. Shit that has happened to every immigrant culture that has come to this country. Get in line.

With all due respect, but I think you're leaving out some important information regarding your personal example.

If I remember correctly, your ancestors hailed from Italy. While it may not apply to specifically to your family's immigration history, most Italians that immigrated to the United States did so before there was any sort of quota system in place.

Basically, prior to the 1920's, with the exception of a small group of people ( criminals, the sick, the Chinese) anyone could immigrate to the United States.

In fact, there are a number of parallels between immigration patterns of Italians (and other ethnicities) and that of the current wave of immigrants, most of whom stem from Latin America (Mexico in particular). Most Italians that migrated to America did not speak English, weren't particularly educated, worked as manual labors, and tended to settle into ethnically homogeneous communities.

Fully 1/3 of Italians who immigrated to the United States returned to Italy. Many came specifically for a certain period of time to earn money to send/take back to Italy.

Chances are that, if the same laws that are in place today were in effect when your ancestors came to the US, you wouldn't be here today.

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by 5pecialist

Interesting that this thread is titled "who has the power", instead of asking who is right or wrong.

this is what came to mind before I clicked on the tread
(good subject, but thread title isn't very informative)



Lol, right or wrong is subject to interpretation.
Can say whatever you want really.

[I LUV MY S13]

Originally Posted by nismo619

im all for it!

look at home depot at 7am in the morning. there are a grip of illegals waiting for work and the cops cant do anything about it cuz they cant prove that they are illegal. im not racist or anything my best friend is mexican but im tired of all the illegals taking work from american citizens, and talking shit on american, and how much better mexico is. if its so much better GET THE FUCK OUT ! sorry i got going but yeah i think cali should do it too but we have our head stuck so far up our ass i dont hink we will

can you prove they're illegal?

[Brian]

Yeah, really....

[I LUV MY S13]

just askin cuz ive stood there before...

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

With all due respect, but I think you're leaving out some important information regarding your personal example.

If I remember correctly, your ancestors hailed from Italy. While it may not apply to specifically to your family's immigration history, most Italians that immigrated to the United States did so before there was any sort of quota system in place.

Basically, prior to the 1920's, with the exception of a small group of people ( criminals, the sick, the Chinese) anyone could immigrate to the United States.

In fact, there are a number of parallels between immigration patterns of Italians (and other ethnicities) and that of the current wave of immigrants, most of whom stem from Latin America (Mexico in particular). Most Italians that migrated to America did not speak English, weren't particularly educated, worked as manual labors, and tended to settle into ethnically homogeneous communities.

Fully 1/3 of Italians who immigrated to the United States returned to Italy. Many came specifically for a certain period of time to earn money to send/take back to Italy.

Chances are that, if the same laws that are in place today were in effect when your ancestors came to the US, you wouldn't be here today.

Idk, I think US Immigration has always has it's preferences.
Like you mentioned, at the time the Chinese could not immigrate as easily.
One could argue the Chinese (bar perhaps Taiwanese) were always discrimated against in US immigration.
Even today, some groups have it much easier than others.
US immigration has never been fair.

I see no reason why ppl wouldn't make the best of situations to their advantage.
Likewise, if the US sets things up such as it is much easier to come here illegally than legally, they probably will.
(I would do the same if I were in their shoes)

It's probably not all that different with other countries' immigration policies.

[Gnnr]

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I am AGAINST giving up our Freedom and Civil Liberties.

I am AGAINST more government control

I am AGAINST big brother monitoring everything we do.

I am AGAINST losing our privacy for security. (Hello Patriot Act)

I am AGAINST profiling for any reason.

I don't agree with cops pulling over black people because they think they'll be able to get them for drug charges.

I don't agree with stopping people of Middle-Eastern decent at Airports because of their ethnicity.

I don't agree with stopping Hispanics because you think they are Illegal.

I don't agree with stopping a young college student because he looks like he might be drinking alcohol even though its covered in a brown paper bag.

Probable cause is the biggest fucking loophole cops use for doing wrong.

Originally Posted by Z33dori

I dont think its fair for them to be protected by the laws that are for legal citizens

THE LAWS ARE FOR EVERYONE. If an illegal immigrant gets raped, the law will protect them. We shouldn't have exclusive laws for specific races of the population, we did away with Jim Crowe (and other such laws) a long time ago.

Its Amazing how much History repeats itself. It happened against the Native Americans in this country, Blacks, Japanese, Germans, Chinese...it goes on and on. When will the Government learn? Politicians need to stop trying to veil their racism through carefully worded laws.

Originally Posted by nismo619

they arent going to ask for your papers just because your mexican or canadian. im sure the officers have a good enough educated guess to tell who is illegal. they most likely wont ask for your papers say if you were mexican and got pulled over an had your drivers license on you and spoke english apose to the guy who got pulled over for having too many people in the car and cant find his DL. or the guy in front of home depot of walks/jogs/runs when the officer sees him. those are the people who will be asked. this is a great law and its about fucking time, im tired of going to job sites full of illegals its bullshit

Everything you mentioned are STEREOTYPES and RACIAL PROFILING.

Its funny that the United States fucked Mexico over many times throughout History to put their country in the miserable state it is in, and then we complain about how their citizens are leaving their shitty country that the US helped make a shitty place. DUH. If we wouldn't have done those things Mexico would be like Canada and there wouldn't not be mass illegal border crossings.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by HalveBlue

With all due respect, but I think you're leaving out some important information regarding your personal example.

If I remember correctly, your ancestors hailed from Italy. While it may not apply to specifically to your family's immigration history, most Italians that immigrated to the United States did so before there was any sort of quota system in place.

Basically, prior to the 1920's, with the exception of a small group of people ( criminals, the sick, the Chinese) anyone could immigrate to the United States.

In fact, there are a number of parallels between immigration patterns of Italians (and other ethnicities) and that of the current wave of immigrants, most of whom stem from Latin America (Mexico in particular). Most Italians that migrated to America did not speak English, weren't particularly educated, worked as manual labors, and tended to settle into ethnically homogeneous communities.

Fully 1/3 of Italians who immigrated to the United States returned to Italy. Many came specifically for a certain period of time to earn money to send/take back to Italy.

Chances are that, if the same laws that are in place today were in effect when your ancestors came to the US, you wouldn't be here today.

ah excuse me there was a quota system, it was in fact instigated in 1924 and was responsible for sending Italians back to Italy. It instigated a situation of where there were only 4,000 per year allowed.

Oh and yes during the 1880's Italians did emigrate in large numbers and some did go back and some did send money back. Though in the end a majority came and stayed. during WW1 there was very little immigration and after it the quota system was put into place.

Though in the 1880's the population of the U.S. and labor situation was quite different than it is today.

They also taught their children English not Italian as English was the language of their adopted country. They also loved their adopted country and stood behind it in WWII.

Indeed we did have our own neighborhoods due to discrimination and such but we did assimilate into American Society. In fact many areas that were formally Italian are not today because of that assimilation.
I do not speak Italian because it was not the language of the country I was born in. Does it take away from my heritage or celebrating it? No. Though I am American first of Italian heritage second.



That pretty much throws a blanket on your claim I would not have been here. You have no idea of my own family history or when my Grandparents migrated.

For you to claim that if today's current practically open door policy with hispanic immigrants is worse than in the turn of the century 1900's begs to ask if you really studied the situation back then.

I

[Brian]

Gnnr - So do you think it's perfectly fine for illegal immigrants to be living here and taking advantage of our country? If so, end of discussion.

If not, what do we do?


Also, you said we shouldn't have laws for specific races of people here. Why did this come up? Did somebody here say that we should?