Any handling/allignment buffs out there?

[nsany(atl)]

you have a fax, a race shop set mine up for street and track so I can send you the printout off my s14

[Creizai]

Originally Posted by gotta240

FUCK. SW20- I didn't think of the brake loss. SHIT. I suppose I want my cake and would like to eat it too!!! Whats so wrong with that! lol.

Creizai- I'm not an expert, and hopefully he will come back to give final word....however. Just by thinking of the way things work...
Negative camber in front will rock the top of the tire in. Meaning while rolling STRAIT you are essentially on the inner edges of the tire, and not the entire tread width. When stoping More contact patch usually = more braking ability.

So, now my question is... What is a happy median between camber effects on handling/braking. If i go much less than 2 i'm pretty sure my handling will suffer dramatically in the turns. Will neg. 3 really effect braking that much?

More Negative Camber allows more traction.... but I guess thats only in the corners.

[gotta240]

nsany(atl)- that would be great if you could find the specs and post them or pm me!!!

[alkemyst]

These are specs Whiteline gives with their suspension setup for the 240SX:
Touring:
Front:
Camber: -1.5 deg
Caster: L+7.5/R+7.0 deg
Toe: 0.0mm
Rear:
Camber: -1.0 deg
Caster: n/a
Toe: 1mm in

Sport:
Front:
Camber: -2.0 deg
Caster: L+7.5/R+7.0 deg
Toe: 0.0mm
Rear:
Camber: -1.25 deg
Caster: n/a
Toe: 0.5mm in

Factory:
Front:
Camber: -1.50 to 0.0 deg (-0.75 deg nominal)
Caster: 6.00 - 7.50 deg (6.75 deg nominal)
Toe: 1.5 - 3.5 mm in, (2.5 mm in nominal)
Rear:
Camber: -1.67 to -0.67 deg (-1.17 deg nominal)
Caster: not adjustable
Toe: 0.0 - 5.0 mm in, (2.5 mm in nominal)

[Replicant_S14]

Originally Posted by McRussellPants

Setting up a car to do autcross well would be lame since over 70mph you'd probably end up in a ditch.

He's right. In full auto-x setup my car is pretty much terrifying at interstate speeds ....if it rains, you just start praying.

To the O.P.:
Don't get too crazy. The rear doesn't need a lot of static camber anyway and you have camber plates in the front. You can adjust them when you need to. That's what they are for.

[speedstar01]

Originally Posted by aznpoopy

get the car corner weighed if you haven't

on estimate how much do you guys pay to have your cars corner weighed? do they do this at the alignment shops?

[gotta240]

great! Thank you guys!!!!!! Thats interesting that whiteline recomends setting left and right caster different..

thoughts?

ALSO, WHY is an auto-x car terrifying on the freeway? Is it only because TOE OUT? Does it make the car super "turn happy"? I'm pretty sure caster and camber wouldn't have an effect on "highway driving" and thats all i could think of causing poor high speed, strait driving... Am i correct?

[kenversusryu]

toe out on an uneven highway going 70 miles an hour next to a semi leaves a traumatic experience at best.

.

[CylonFrakker]

This alignment is the result of experimentation with the factory numbers to improve road feel and to reduce inside edge wear on the rear tires that is common with the factory settings. These settings will add grip at the front and dramatically improve the feedback to the driver in the steering wheel. They will also reduce or eliminate inside edge wear on the rear tires, and I have gone as far as 24,000 miles on a set of Bridgestone S-02s with these settings. The car will still under steer slightly, but the aggressive driver will find much more predictable handling and significantly better feedback from the car. Obviously, these settings are still compromised for street use. Autocross, road race, and drag race competitors can use these as a baseline, but will probably require somewhat different settings to be competitive.

1. What is a Good Street Alignment?
Front:

Camber - 1.0 degrees

Caster + 5.0 degrees

Toe 0.00 mm

Rear:

Camber -1.5 degrees

Toe in (total) 1.00 mm

(on 255/40R17 tires this rear toe equates to .090 deg, i.e. .045 deg per side)
(on 275/40R17 tires this rear toe equates to .088 deg, i.e. .044 deg per side)

The Front and Rear Toe are critical to tire wear, even small deviations from spec may cause unusual wear patterns or excessive wear.

[Creizai]

Why Uneven Caster?
Caster: L+7.5/R+7.0 deg

[alkemyst]

Originally Posted by Creizai

Why Uneven Caster?
Caster: L+7.5/R+7.0 deg

Only thing I could think of is considering driver weight..but I don't know.

[motonagam]

Originally Posted by creizai

Why Uneven Caster?
Caster: L+7.5/R+7.0 deg

I think the caster difference is backwards... you should have less caster on the left side to compensate for road crown in the road (car will pull towards the least caster). The road cambers away on the outter edge (near the sidewalk), and the car will slightly pull to the outside if caster setting is the same on both sides, so having the caster difference will make it feel neutral going down the road.

[McRussellPants]

Originally Posted by Creizai

Why Uneven Caster?
Caster: L+7.5/R+7.0 deg

Its to keep your car from pulling on slanted roads, most roads will have crest on them, it kinda helps keeping it from pulling to the outside.

Alignment guy tried to do it on mine, I told him to eat it.

2 degrees of camber on the front of a lowered 240SX for a performance oriented aligment is rediculous unless its on dry rotted Cooper Lifeliners.

[gotta240]

why is 2 degrees of camber on a lowered 240 rediculous??? Seems boarderline minimal for hard driving...

Care to explain...anyone? thanks.

[alkemyst]

Originally Posted by gotta240

why is 2 degrees of camber on a lowered 240 rediculous??? Seems boarderline minimal for hard driving...

Care to explain...anyone? thanks.

Viceroy will tell you -3 or 4 is great because it helps with all the alterboys in your ride.

[gotta240]

ok. still lost as to why neg. 2 is rediculous...

[Replicant_S14]

Originally Posted by motonagam

I think the caster difference is backwards... you should have less caster on the left side to compensate for road crown in the road (car will pull towards the least caster). The road cambers away on the outter edge (near the sidewalk), and the car will slightly pull to the outside if caster setting is the same on both sides, so having the caster difference will make it feel neutral going down the road.

Those are whiteline specs so it must be for Oz cars. Kangaroos drive on the wrong side of the road.


BTW - I don't agree that neg 2 in the front is ridiculous for any low mac-strut car. Neg 2 in the back is too much for me tho.

[gotta240]

Yeah, i'm hoping the guys who said neg. 2 camber is rediculous will step in and explain.

I'm not an expert, but i'm calling B.S on that statement.

[naed240sx]

Originally Posted by Supraflame

1. What is a Good Street Alignment?
Front:

Camber - 1.0 degrees

Caster + 5.0 degrees

Toe 0.00 mm

Rear:

Camber -1.5 degrees

Toe in (total) 1.00 mm

What the hell??!!

These specs are totally jacked. 5 degrees of castor? That's LESS than stock. There is absolutely no reason why you would want to run less than stock castor on a street or track or both 240sx. More castor increases centering feel of the steering wheel and provides better turn in, as well as providing more camber when turning, allowing you to run less static camber. This is good because you will still have a good straightline footprint for breaking, but you will have the camber when you need it.

Also, those camber settings are wack. Less camber in the front than in the rear? I dunno what thats about. You should always have more front camber than rear camber on an s chassis. No wonder your car understeers.

I'm not gonna go listing about a bunch of perfect specs, because there are no perfect specs. It totally depends on what the purpose of the car is, and what parts, and more importantly what tires you have on the car. However, some general, common sense guidlines:

1.) Run more camber than factory, with more camber in front than in the rear
2.) Increasing castor is good. 10 degrees is probably too much, but 7.5-9 is a good range.
3.) Toe out in front is scary
4.) Toe wrecks tires, not camber.


Ohh, and setting up your car with uneven R/L castor settings is wack.

[motonagam]

Originally Posted by Replicant_S14

Those are whiteline specs so it must be for Oz cars. Kangaroos drive on the wrong side of the road.

Yes, that must be it! I didn't think of that. hahaha. Thanks!

[chmercer]

Originally Posted by alkemyst

Viceroy will tell you -3 or 4 is great because it helps with all the alterboys in your ride.

Yes you stupid bastard. go try and convince someone your mustang wheels don't weigh 27lbs.

You need more camber on macpherson strut cars to end up with the same compressed camber as double wishbone cars.

I'd run 2.5 bare minimum, 3+ for slicks if I was going for handling.

-mcrussellpants.

[alkemyst]

Originally Posted by chmercer

Yes you stupid bastard.

I didn't think you'd agree with me.

Also I really don't care what my wheels weight since they are really temporary.

2.5 or 3+ front and rear...what kind of handling (other than alter boys)?

[Dousan_PG]

2 - to 3 is great for open track events
most the folks i know with 240sx run a similar setup
i dont know what your problem is alkemyst

[alkemyst]

Originally Posted by Dousan_PG

i dont know what your problem is alkemyst

You like the Viceroy guys?

Read who I am quoting. I'd think you'd at least understand it. Guys can't even figure out how to put in a basic stereo.

I will agree though a good street alignment is not equal to track alignments. I have known ppl that paid to get realigned for street and track. Only Nissan driver doing this I know has a 350Z.

At least you state what alignment specs you are dishing out. Street only, mixed, and various track situations all call for different alignments.

[HyperTek]

good informative thread.

so what alignment shops do you guys go to? My car was too low to get on the rack yesterday. ended up using the ground for toe adjustment last night. Not precise but when you are limited, it works. placing flat boards againts each wheel, marking the ground, measuring the distance between the front and rear of these marks from each other, making some calculations. Bringing it to zero degrees. Camber im limited to fender clearance.

[naed240sx]

Originally Posted by HyperTek

so what alignment shops do you guys go to?

NTB like once every 2 months because i'm an alignment whore, and have a 3 year plan.

They bitch and moan about me wanting specs other than the weakass stock ones though.

[alkemyst]

Originally Posted by HyperTek

good informative thread.

so what alignment shops do you guys go to? My car was too low to get on the rack yesterday. ended up using the ground for toe adjustment last night. Not precise but when you are limited, it works. placing flat boards againts each wheel, marking the ground, measuring the distance between the front and rear of these marks from each other, making some calculations. Bringing it to zero degrees. Camber im limited to fender clearance.

Depending on what you need you can go to the place were people take their lowriders/mini trucks...if you have an adjustable suspension find out who does the track guys alignments.

Either of those places will have the boards and ramps to get you on the rack.

These places usually don't do lifetime alignments though...I pay about $125 a pop and that is pretty standard for my area...a typical 4 wheel is about $90 here usually lifetime though.