The Future Automotive Thread

[Z_Spool]

^this

I think the millennial crowd may have been their aim, but they seem to have struck a chord more with an older audience that desires something more sporting to commute in than the Crossover they haul the kids around in on the weekends.

[exitspeed]

Originally Posted by Z_Spool

^this

I think the millennial crowd may have been their aim, but they seem to have struck a chord more with an older audience that desires something more sporting to commute in than the Crossover they haul the kids around in on the weekends.

That's the purpose of Scion (geared towards the youth), but really that care was for us. These kids don't like cars. They like cell phones, and vine videos. Hell in most cities kids aren't even worried about owning cars or getting licences. American culture has changed so much (everything from car culture to not giving a fuck about the "American Dream"). The kids are no different then the hippies from the 60's. Bad ass RWD cars just aren't on their radar as much. Not saying ALL, but its not like us 40-30 year old crowd that grew up with Countach posters on their walls and salivated over the smell of burnouts.

That's why they need to stop TRYING to make these cars for them. Why on Earth would a 21 year old even think the IDx is cool? They don't even understand how much heritage there is in its design.

Sorry. Grumpy old guy on a Monday morn.

[!Zar!]

Truth be told, RWD isn't important. It doesn't matter on the average car to the average driver.

RWD cars cost more to make. Price them too high and people will start eyeing German cars. That was the problem in the early 90's out here and that problem won't change.

RWD, FF, AWD/4wd. Most people will never feel the difference.

Just like the iPhone, people don't care wether it has the best specs on earth. All they want is looks, sturdy performance, and versatility.

As for kids not wanting licenses, it depends on where you live. I see plenty of girls who just got their license buying Scions.

[vanish1]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

Truth be told, RWD isn't important. It doesn't matter on the average car to the average driver.

RWD cars cost more to make. Price them too high and people will start eyeing German cars. That was the problem in the early 90's out here and that problem won't change.

RWD, FF, AWD/4wd. Most people will never feel the difference.

RWD is very much important to the average driver.

RWD is safer than FWD, I would rather have my child in a rwd car than fwd so they spin out instead of understeer locking the steering up and they drive str8 off the road.

most ppl do notice the difference between the drivetrains, I think what you are alluring to is more so the average person not necessarily caring what the drivetrain is.

and manufacturers dont want to make RWD cars not because they cost too much but because profit margins are slimmer

[!Zar!]

Originally Posted by vanish1

RWD is very much important to the average driver.

RWD is safer than FWD, I would rather have my child in a rwd car than fwd so they spin out instead of understeer locking the steering up and they drive str8 off the road.

most ppl do notice the difference between the drivetrains, I think what you are alluring to is more so the average person not necessarily caring what the drivetrain is.

and manufacturers dont want to make RWD cars not because they cost too much but because profit margins are slimmer

RWD has traction control just as FWD cars do. Most RWD cars have the steering setup FOR understeer.

Oversteer is harder to predict and control than understeer. That is why understeer is safer.

The person driving to and from work and from the grocery store has no idea what the difference is in feeling between RWD and FF.

The thing that made most cars boring today are the safety standards, and all of the technology put in to them. Different type of driving assists, electronic steering / throttle. Extra weight for safety. Blah

Rwd doesn't cut into the profit margins. The margins stay the same. The price of the car goes up. Which is why I said people will start eyeing German cars due to the negligible differences in price.

[Z_Spool]

ZAR's on the ball on this one. Joe Consumer doesn't know the difference between drivetrain layouts until they lose control of it. They all put away from a stoplight the same and they all pull into strip mall driveways the same way. All that really matters to the general consumer is how many cup holders it has and if they can link their phone to it. The only time I've seen the general consumer pay attention to drivetrain is in winter climates like here in Denver where everyone wants an AWD/4WD because of the myth that it's automatically safer in snow/ice. And as He also said Yes, to the more informed and experienced driver, oversteer may be prefferable over understeer, but again to some numbnuts who forgets what side of the car their gas door is on because they just don't pay attention to the car as long as it gets them from a-to-b, understeer is safer. If you plow straight ahead, bummer but at least you'll know where you'll end up... straight ahead some distance. If the car oversteers with an inexperienced driver, who knows where the hell it'll end up pointed. This is why auto shops recommend putting the better tires at the rear of your vehicle when only buying a pair. It's for uninformed Joe grocery getter's safety, and the safety of those around him.

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

That's the purpose of Scion (geared towards the youth), but really that care was for us. These kids don't like cars. They like cell phones, and vine videos. Hell in most cities kids aren't even worried about owning cars or getting licences. American culture has changed so much (everything from car culture to not giving a fuck about the "American Dream"). The kids are no different then the hippies from the 60's. Bad ass RWD cars just aren't on their radar as much. Not saying ALL, but its not like us 40-30 year old crowd that grew up with Countach posters on their walls and salivated over the smell of burnouts.

That's why they need to stop TRYING to make these cars for them. Why on Earth would a 21 year old even think the IDx is cool? They don't even understand how much heritage there is in its design.

Sorry. Grumpy old guy on a Monday morn.

I got feeling the same way looking at Ducati ads for the new Scrambler. Hardly shows the bike. All look at the cool places you can go with your douche bag hipster friends.

[future]

I'm definitely with Zar, no FWD car is safer in bad driving conditions

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

Truth be told, RWD isn't important. It doesn't matter on the average car to the average driver.

RWD cars cost more to make. Price them too high and people will start eyeing German cars. That was the problem in the early 90's out here and that problem won't change.

RWD, FF, AWD/4wd. Most people will never feel the difference.

Just like the iPhone, people don't care wether it has the best specs on earth. All they want is looks, sturdy performance, and versatility.

As for kids not wanting licenses, it depends on where you live. I see plenty of girls who just got their license buying Scions.

Round and Round we go. Lol pretty much 1989 all over again. Same arguments then that you put up now, so ironic.

I even knew someone who bought a Ford Probe V6 because the salesmen at the Nissan dealership was being a dick when he was looking at a 240sx. He went straight across the street and bought the Probe instead. Did not matter if it was FWD or RWD he was not a full on car enthusiast he was a music person.
How he was treated and could he make the deal were more important and truthfully that's how the majority of car buyers are beyond reliability concerns.

Face it guys we are a dwindling minority and that was probably said back in 1989 to early 90's as well.
Round and round we go were it stops nobody knows.

[woodchuck]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

That's the purpose of Scion (geared towards the youth), but really that care was for us. These kids don't like cars. They like cell phones, and vine videos. Hell in most cities kids aren't even worried about owning cars or getting licences. American culture has changed so much (everything from car culture to not giving a fuck about the "American Dream"). The kids are no different then the hippies from the 60's. Bad ass RWD cars just aren't on their radar as much. Not saying ALL, but its not like us 40-30 year old crowd that grew up with Countach posters on their walls and salivated over the smell of burnouts.

That's why they need to stop TRYING to make these cars for them. Why on Earth would a 21 year old even think the IDx is cool? They don't even understand how much heritage there is in its design.

Sorry. Grumpy old guy on a Monday morn.

dang. speak of the devil:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/why-sci...niche-product/

[dorkidori_s13]

its not surprising that FRS sales have tanked. toyota has done NOTHING with the car as far as performance goes. outside of offering special editions that come with body kits and no engine performance upgrades, the FRS and BRZ are just boring now. why would any FRS owner want to upgrade? there is no reason to given the 2012 is the same car as the 2015.

Ford has it nailed! you can get 2-3 different trim levels with the Ecoboost Mustang, PLUS, you can add the Ford Performance Pkg which actually DOES something to car! Stiffer suspension, longer rear end gear, Brembo brakes and Recaros (IIRC). Oh, not to mention within the next few years, the laundry list of factory backed performance parts that will be available from the dealership when you buy the damn car that will be fully warrantied.

i cant believe im saying this, but the Japanese REALLY need to take a cue from Ford! the Mustang Ecoboost IS the new Silvia and IS the car that weve all wanted that Nissan refuses to give us! factory performance packages with all sorts of neat little options! this WAS the silvia in the 1990s available from Japanese dealers.

unless the Japanese really do something to change their entry and mid level RWD offerings... Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Mazda and Hyundai are going to have nothing but a huge uphill fight against the new Mustang given it now officially offers something for everyone!.

[exitspeed]

Originally Posted by woodchuck

dang. speak of the devil:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/why-sci...niche-product/

I was just going to post that. Pretty much reiterate what I said minus the crankiness.

[simmode1]

This isn't neccessarily a bad thing. Weren't the 86 twins always supposed to be a limited short run? I don't think this data means that they should be considered as sales failures. It's just time to scale down production or do a radical revamp to make ppl trade in the old ones for newer ones.

[simmode1]

Sidenote: Would you guys rather pick a brand new Ecoboost Mustang or a similarly priced, but used E92 335i coupe? And why?

[vanish1]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

RWD has traction control just as FWD cars do. Most RWD cars have the steering setup FOR understeer.

Oversteer is harder to predict and control than understeer. That is why understeer is safer.

The person driving to and from work and from the grocery store has no idea what the difference is in feeling between RWD and FF.

The thing that made most cars boring today are the safety standards, and all of the technology put in to them. Different type of driving assists, electronic steering / throttle. Extra weight for safety. Blah

Rwd doesn't cut into the profit margins. The margins stay the same. The price of the car goes up. Which is why I said people will start eyeing German cars due to the negligible differences in price.

no its the opposite, rwd is safer than fwd.

I would rather spin out in place and let my back end hit something than have steering lock up and you drive straight into w/e.

if you are taking a turn too hard rwd will spin you out, fwd will send you straight off the road.

and yes profit margin has a lot to do with it. I would be willing to bet Ford makes less per mustang than Honda does per civic both examples set at @$23,000.

if overall cost was an issue then in Europe BMW would have never came out w/ their econo versions of their cars for the past 35 years; e21 315, e21 316, e21 316i, e21 318i, e30 316e, e30 316i, e36 316i, continued w/ the e46....

[vanish1]

Originally Posted by simmode1

Sidenote: Would you guys rather pick a brand new Ecoboost Mustang or a similarly priced, but used E92 335i coupe? And why?

mustang

theres something undeniable about a brand new car and a warranty

[silviasandbeer]

if money wasnt an option and i could keep up with maintence: e92 based on looks alone

if based on my current salary, the mustang. my e90 is plenty fun for me being N/A
id actually prefer an e82 over the mustang. the 1 series will be my next car next year..yada yada yada we've already discussed the e82 i was just saying

dont get me wrong, the mustang seems really cool and theres alot of potensial for aftermarket gains being turbo. but mehh, never cared to much for mustangs unless it was a shelby. id park the ecoboost mustang and not look back walking away

[exitspeed]

Originally Posted by simmode1

This isn't neccessarily a bad thing. Weren't the 86 twins always supposed to be a limited short run? I don't think this data means that they should be considered as sales failures. It's just time to scale down production or do a radical revamp to make ppl trade in the old ones for newer ones.

That's what I've been trying to get across to everyone since the Genesis came out. Its not ALWAYS about selling as many as a Camry. The Genesis is a "failure" compared to high volume car as is the FRS/BRZ. Look, these are big smart companies that usually don't like to part with hundreds of millions unless theres a bigger picture. Sure, they may not make a killing off of these cars in 2-3 years, but now that the platform is developed there's not much more money into keeping them up-to-date and it'll even out after a while. They knew exactly all the sales scenarios before the thing got the green light as did Hyundia. It just seems to me Ghosn is just TOO conservative right now since he has the GTR and Z to sell a sporty brand on.

[future]

Originally Posted by simmode1

Sidenote: Would you guys rather pick a brand new Ecoboost Mustang or a similarly priced, but used E92 335i coupe? And why?

I'd pick a GT over the BMW just cause I would never own a BMW and the GT is actually cool and way cheaper to maintain

[raz0rbladez909]

Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13

its not surprising that FRS sales have tanked. toyota has done NOTHING with the car as far as performance goes. outside of offering special editions that come with body kits and no engine performance upgrades, the FRS and BRZ are just boring now. why would any FRS owner want to upgrade? there is no reason to given the 2012 is the same car as the 2015.

Ford has it nailed! you can get 2-3 different trim levels with the Ecoboost Mustang, PLUS, you can add the Ford Performance Pkg which actually DOES something to car! Stiffer suspension, longer rear end gear, Brembo brakes and Recaros (IIRC). Oh, not to mention within the next few years, the laundry list of factory backed performance parts that will be available from the dealership when you buy the damn car that will be fully warrantied.

i cant believe im saying this, but the Japanese REALLY need to take a cue from Ford! the Mustang Ecoboost IS the new Silvia and IS the car that weve all wanted that Nissan refuses to give us! factory performance packages with all sorts of neat little options! this WAS the silvia in the 1990s available from Japanese dealers.

unless the Japanese really do something to change their entry and mid level RWD offerings... Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Mazda and Hyundai are going to have nothing but a huge uphill fight against the new Mustang given it now officially offers something for everyone!.

This! The FRS was a huge disappointment to me, and I really regret trading in my S2K for one in the past. I kept deluding myself with thoughts of how great the car will be with mods, and that eventually it will be the best thing out there. When in reality, the S2K was alot more entertaining, and rewarding to drive stock for stock. It still amazes me that over ten years later, with all these advances in automotive technology and materials, that the F20/22C still produced way more power than the FRZ twins.

I've honestly given up on the Japanese car market. Honda/Acura doesn't produce anything even remotely sporty, it's like they're repeating what Toyota did in the early to mid 2000's. Toyota has the FRS(refer to previous paragraph) Lexus is all overpriced and out of the average enthusiasts reach (ISF, GSF, LFA, ETC.) Nissan has managed to make the 370Z even uglier than it was when it came out, (The mustang is also a better buy all around), The GTR gets more expensive every year(and maintenance is pretty pricey from what I've researched). Mazda at least still produces the Miata, and while it may be slow, it's still one of my favorite cars I've ever owned/driven. Subaru has BRZ(again paragraph 1) Wrx/STI(cool, but not sports cars) and Mitsubishi, which will completely lose any enthusiasts interest once they kill the evo off.

All of the above is why I made my most recent purchase. A C5 Z06 Corvette. Hell, everyone and their mom is swapping LS motors into everything anyways, why not buy the car that was designed to use it. Not to mention the bang for the buck equation is really undeniable, especially when comparing it to equivalent year imports.

Originally Posted by simmode1

Sidenote: Would you guys rather pick a brand new Ecoboost Mustang or a similarly priced, but used E92 335i coupe? And why?

Ecoboost all day! Used BMW's just scream "stay away" for some reason to me. I've always had bad experiences with German cars in general so my opinion may be a little biased. The ecoboost Mustang is going to be a real force to be reckoned with though.

[simmode1]

^^^I remember when you posted about selling your S2000 for the new 86. Personally, I thought that was a terrible idea. But the C5 Z06 is a great way to redeem yourself... Good job, sir.

[exitspeed]

There are a ton of great used cars for $20k or less.

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by exitspeed

There are a ton of great used cars for $20k or less.

Yep! Hell, even down to $10k or less. Z33's, S2000's, 330ci's, Z4's, turbo Mazdaspeed Miata's or RX8's for LSx swaps. Really, there is zero reason to buy a 240sx any more, IMO. We're gonna go the way of the 510, guys.

[vanish1]

510? I was thinking the 240sx is the next s12

[simmode1]

^^^Hmmm... whichever one still has a decent aftermarket despite being irrelevant & older than all fuck.

[LockOn!]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Who says any 20 year old are buying them? I know 3 owners, none are under 35.

I think you misread, we're saying the same thing.

The car was targeted at millennials, but too many are underemployed/in massive debt/scraping by, to even think about buying new. Thus the age demo shifted up to people who can actually afford them. I know a bunch of guys my age who would love to buy one of these, they just realistically can't. The only guy I know with one is 30.


On a side note, anyone notice FR-S pricings tanking already? I probably see one or two a month pop up for 16-17K in my area. BRZ's seem to be holding steady at 21-22Kish though. These are WA prices.

Makes me happy I got a late model Z33, I can already trade it straight across for the cost of some of these FR-Ss.

Originally Posted by drift freaq

I even knew someone who bought a Ford Probe V6

Hahaha if your willing to buy a car called a "Probe", you definitely don't give a shit about anything.

Originally Posted by simmode1

Yep! Hell, even down to $10k or less. Z33's

Where I'm at clean title 1st gen Z33's are down to 10's now. I've even seen 2 branded title ones pop up for 5 and 6K, front end damage repaired. If you don't mind the title thing and want to track a car why not? The entire front end basically unbolts anyway.

[!Zar!]

Originally Posted by vanish1

no its the opposite, rwd is safer than fwd.

I would rather spin out in place and let my back end hit something than have steering lock up and you drive straight into w/e.

if you are taking a turn too hard rwd will spin you out, fwd will send you straight off the road.

and yes profit margin has a lot to do with it. I would be willing to bet Ford makes less per mustang than Honda does per civic both examples set at @$23,000.

if overall cost was an issue then in Europe BMW would have never came out w/ their econo versions of their cars for the past 35 years; e21 315, e21 316, e21 316i, e21 318i, e30 316e, e30 316i, e36 316i, continued w/ the e46....

Nobody cares how you want to crash. It doesnt change the FACT that understeer is easier to manage.

Honda is an Asian company. Ford is a domestic company. So Ford will get a break being as how they are based here. That affects margins as well.

I'm not sure how you're misunderstanding my post...
Cost is an issue. When BMW and Mercedes makes their base model cars cheaper, people try harder to obtain one. You can get a brand new Bmw 3 series for almost $30k. The frs costs $25k. Most people would rather just tack on the extra cash and cop the German ride.

This is the EXACT same issue we had in the 90's.

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by LockOn!

Makes me happy I got a late model Z33, I can already trade it straight across for the cost of some of these FR-Ss.

Why would you WANT to do that though?! lol... HR 350Z>>> FRS/BRZ. Throwing away 100 more hp & the HR engine that can actually withstand forced induction? You gonna be in the same boat as Raz0rbladez909 a few posts up regretting getting rid of superior car for an FRS... lol... Oh the FRS is so light! Big whoop. Z's power to weight ratio DESTROYS it. Badly. Throw on some OEM Nismo aero & focus on making its handling sharper. Done.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by simmode1

Yep! Hell, even down to $10k or less. Z33's, S2000's, 330ci's, Z4's, turbo Mazdaspeed Miata's or RX8's for LSx swaps. Really, there is zero reason to buy a 240sx any more, IMO. We're gonna go the way of the 510, guys.

You might as well insert E36 M3's into that equation as well. Less than 10k are every bit as nice as 240sx in the handling department with better ride more comfort and cache. They did not label them flying bricks for nothing.

As far as 240sx's going the way of the 510 I would say its hard to say. 510 did have it's racing history history here in the U.S. To cement its cult status. Now yes the 240sx has its drift car notoriety. That also could be its undoing here as it could wind up disappearing as it drift crashed into oblivion.
You could almost say Nissan cemented it into obscurity due to lack of pushing the platform. Lol
As far as the parts side go it's definitely headed down the same road the 510 has gone. With parts turning into unobtainium.

Oh and yes I do agree with Zar with both Mercedes and BMW making cars in the 30-35K range .It makes it harder on the Japanese to get the consumer to buy Japanese sports oriented cars priced in the 25-30K ranges.

[vanish1]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

Nobody cares how you want to crash. It doesnt change the FACT that understeer is easier to manage.

Heres a story about an A#$hat friend of a coworker of mine. There are large swooping interchange circles in sfl and this guy decided to take one a lil too hot in a scion tc.

instead of spinning out his car drove straight off the road because understeer locked the steering up. One pole, the jaws of life, and an expensive medical bill later hes still alive.

sorry rwd is inherently safer.

Honda is an Asian company. Ford is a domestic company. So Ford will get a break being as how they are based here. That affects margins as well.

and Honda gets a break in Japan......so...

I'm not sure how you're misunderstanding my post...
Cost is an issue. When BMW and Mercedes makes their base model cars cheaper, people try harder to obtain one. You can get a brand new Bmw 3 series for almost $30k. The frs costs $25k. Most people would rather just tack on the extra cash and cop the German ride.

This is the EXACT same issue we had in the 90's.

I think youre missing the point I made.

You have to step outside your American bubble and think about how other countries work.

In Germany and Europe, German cars are not only limited to the luxury segment, there are econo box bmws as well.

thats why there are models (the ones I listed) over there that dont exist here and why the phrase 'poverty spec' exists for modding old bmws.