FBI Gets Caught!

[ThatGuy]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

By putting any device on my car they are violating my property. It is almost irrelevant that it is a tracking device.

Again though, I don't see you going after every flier carrying delivery boy, or new business owner that goes around planting "devices" (albeit just a sheet of paper under your windshield wiper) on cars all over parking lots.

This device was placed on the vehicle, while the vehicle was impounded, and serves the same purpose, as I stated, as a tail car or local paid informants. It is used to gather more information (in this case locale habits) in order to get a warrant for more serious issues. Thus, a warrant isn't required for this aspect of the investigation. Also, by using this module, they are possibly cutting tax payer dollars (just possibly, I am not claiming anything as definitive). Paying informants all over town, possibly numerous times, to keep tabs on someone can get costly. Taking 1 or 2 officers away from more pressing issues, to put them in a car a block away from this guy all day, is a waste of manpower. With this device, then can simply put it on, and then check it when it is needed. It is a more intelligent form of investigation.

Just adding to the discussion, not condemning your opinion or anything. We are entitled to our opinions, and the ability to debate them in a peaceful manner.

[axiomatik]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

They can't attach a device to my car with out my knowledge or a warrant. In the past a warrant would never be given for this with out just cause. It's the same as them not being able to install listening devices on your house.

No, it is fundamentally different. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning the conversations you have in your house or on your phone. You do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning the location of your car. You drive it on public roads in full view of any bystanders. If you get in your car and drive to the supermarket. How can you claim that you expect that activity to be private if 200 people see your car on the road or you getting out of your car?

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

All the feds have done is removed the need for a warrant.

That would require an awfully broad interpretation of the terms 'search and seizure'. You have a reasonable expectation that items in your car or in your house are private. That is why a warrant is required to search inside. But you can't claim that the fact that your car was sitting in front of Burger King at 3:45 is private.

Now, I do not agree that agents should be allowed to step onto your property to plant the device. I believe that crosses the boundaries, if they are going to do it, it shouldn't be on your own personal property.

[BustedS13]

Originally Posted by superbike81

You brought up "freedom" in this thread, which is entirely irrelevant because "freedom" isn't affected by something like a vehicle tracking device.

now you're just trolling... what a douche

I don't like the idea of anyone being allowed to just stick random shit to my car or any of my property without informing me. It's not really this specific instance, it's just... if it's now legal to throw tracking devices on cars without a warrant, what's the next step? how about we start putting gps in every new car, or maybe even make it a requirement, and say it's a new safety feature? what about microphones? what about just monitoring the gps in everyone's cell phones, and having a pin on every person in the country at all times?
sorry, i went off like a conservative on gay marriage there. but the point is, it feels too big brother-y. this country is feeling more and more like 1984 every year, and i really don't care for it.

[kingkilburn]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

Again though, I don't see you going after every flier carrying delivery boy, or new business owner that goes around planting "devices" (albeit just a sheet of paper under your windshield wiper) on cars all over parking lots.

Actually a friend and I were just talking about a strip club leaving fliers on our cars every day. We discussed ways to get them to either stop or to get payback for almost 4 months of fliers everyday.

[kingkilburn]

Originally Posted by axiomatik

No, it is fundamentally different. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning the conversations you have in your house or on your phone. You do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning the location of your car. You drive it on public roads in full view of any bystanders. If you get in your car and drive to the supermarket. How can you claim that you expect that activity to be private if 200 people see your car on the road or you getting out of your car?




That would require an awfully broad interpretation of the terms 'search and seizure'. You have a reasonable expectation that items in your car or in your house are private. That is why a warrant is required to search inside. But you can't claim that the fact that your car was sitting in front of Burger King at 3:45 is private.

Now, I do not agree that agents should be allowed to step onto your property to plant the device. I believe that crosses the boundaries, if they are going to do it, it shouldn't be on your own personal property.

You seem to be completely missing my point. My location my not be private but my property sure as hell is. They have ZERO right to tamper with it without a warrant.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Actually a friend and I were just talking about a strip club leaving fliers on our cars every day. We discussed ways to get them to either stop or to get payback for almost 4 months of fliers everyday.

Just goto your township/county/borough and ask them what you can do. Some local guys here presented our township with a similar 'cease the fliers' type deal that local resturants put on cars (college town) and managed to get it stopped...the litter alone was enough to make me gag.

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

You seem to be completely missing my point. My location my not be private but my property sure as hell is. They have ZERO right to tamper with it without a warrant.

So what's your opinion on google street view/bing whoever having arial photos and the sort of your property online for anyone to look at/track?

[kingkilburn]

I like the aerial photos but I think street view should stay out of residential neighborhoods.

[superbike81]

Originally Posted by BustedS13

now you're just trolling... what a douche

I don't like the idea of anyone being allowed to just stick random shit to my car or any of my property without informing me. It's not really this specific instance, it's just... if it's now legal to throw tracking devices on cars without a warrant, what's the next step? how about we start putting gps in every new car, or maybe even make it a requirement, and say it's a new safety feature? what about microphones? what about just monitoring the gps in everyone's cell phones, and having a pin on every person in the country at all times?
sorry, i went off like a conservative on gay marriage there. but the point is, it feels too big brother-y. this country is feeling more and more like 1984 every year, and i really don't care for it.

Not trolling at all. I don't see how a vehicle tracking device violates freedom, you can still do all the same things you did without the tracking device.

Everything you just listed is fine with me. Again, if you aren't doing anything wrong, why do you care who is paying attention to you? I'd rather them be able to keep a closer eye on the criminals. If that means someone can track me and listen in on my conversations too, fine, it's all for the greater good.

[kingkilburn]

The greater good can't be protected if we forsake the rights and liberties of the individual. That is one of the ideas this country was founded on.

[superbike81]

We live in a completely different world compared to when the country was founded.

[kingkilburn]

That isn't as true as we'd like it to be and also doesn't change the fact that their political ideology is what shaped our laws and customs.

[axiomatik]

Originally Posted by superbike81

Not trolling at all. I don't see how a vehicle tracking device violates freedom, you can still do all the same things you did without the tracking device.

Everything you just listed is fine with me. Again, if you aren't doing anything wrong, why do you care who is paying attention to you? I'd rather them be able to keep a closer eye on the criminals. If that means someone can track me and listen in on my conversations too, fine, it's all for the greater good.

That is an entirely too passive point of view. What you consider the greater good my be completely different than another person's, or the police chiefs idea of the greater good. The reason the law requires warrants for searching or eavesdropping is so that a impartial outside party (the judge) can review the evidence and motive and determine whether or not the request is valid. I don't think we should throw away those checks and balances out of fear.

[empir3e]

ok just with my very brief experience with these 3 letter agencys.. you ALL are crazy if you think that they dont monitor EVERYTHING on everybody, just cause. even though we are americans, we still pose a bigger threat to the nation than most people realize. just little bits of info that are given out, not leaked, but given away because somebody thinks its meaningless can cause somebody to find the last piece to their puzzle, ya know. so i think its MORE than ok for these 3 letter government guys to watch and monitor whatever they want.... i CAN promise you that they see ALL emails and text messages sent out of the US and all that come in from overseas....

[kingkilburn]

How is Cav treating you empir3e?


It seems like the scariest responses are coming from military people.

[EDT007]

After reading most of this thread, some of you need to get off your political high-horse and you know who I'm referring to. As stated most if not all people will not like the idea of this being done but it's a necessary evil to keep people safe. This stranger you keep trying to defend in some odd way had enough reason to be suspicious. He is being tracked FOR A REASON, they didn't just pick a name out of a hat. And as for your property and tracking, blah blah blah. Take a look at your PC, I'm sure you have quite a bit of "tracking" cookies on there that do the same as that tracking device. Why don't you go after each of those companies responsible as well! I realize what some people are trying to say and on what grounds this country was founded on but without evolvement we will not survive. Until world peace becomes a reality these types of measures will have to be taken to ensure safety for the general population. Don't like it, write your congressman.

[empir3e]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

How is Cav treating you empir3e?

its pretty chill except for this Iraq part lol... working on gettin put on assignment up in this topics favorite city.... DC! (dunn dunn dunnnnnnnn)

[kingkilburn]

Originally Posted by EDT007

This stranger you keep trying to defend in some odd way had enough reason to be suspicious. He is being tracked FOR A REASON, they didn't just pick a name out of a hat.

If that is the case they should have no problem obtaining a proper warrant.

There is no reason that they should be allowed to do these sorts of things without going through proper channels. The well being of the greater good is the reason those procedures exist in the first place.

[kingkilburn]

Originally Posted by empir3e

its pretty chill except for this Iraq part lol... working on gettin put on assignment up in this topics favorite city.... DC! (dunn dunn dunnnnnnnn)

That should make for a much safer duty station.

[empir3e]

no man, there is to a reason.... lets say you are plotting something, or you are selling valuable info. if you KNOW that there is a chance that i could be monitoring emails or* texts of yours, tracking your vehicle, or listening to your calls... you will be less likely to go through or commit to what your planning... its a detterent and a safety precaution, sure these 3 letter guys maybe invading your privacy and some of your rights, but look at the big picture... just because shit like Bourne Identity is in a movie, doesnt mean shit like that doesnt really happen if you get what im saying..... These things you say that arent right or shouldnt be allowed are the EXACT reasons as to why you dont hear more about terroristic activity in the states... just something to think about

[codyace]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

It seems like the scariest responses are coming from military people.

I'd beg to say the most realistic ones are coming from us, but that's just my opinion. Right or wrong is up to the end user in this case.

The difference is, I think most military guys here also understand how it 'really' works. I mean we can argue in theory and idealogy all day, and the end of it, the Gov'ts job is to protect the people at all costs. Upsetting a few people to save a few lives is a worthwhile trade.

I don't think any of us 'doubt' the procedural aspect of how things should work, and how they did work, and what has formed our legal system and all of that jazz....we're all understanding of how it 'should' work on paper. THe problem is, sometimes aheading to the exact letter is the wrong way. Sure it's an oxymoron (saying we should cheat/lie/decieve) but the 'best bad decision' routine almost always wins when it comes to security.

[empir3e]

haha i love all this talk of warrents... i think that the majority of us can agrree that the whole point to monitor or "track" somebody is to HOPEFULLY catch them giving out information they should not have, or commit some illeagal act... the purpose is to NOT draw any attention to whatever these agencys are doing. TRUE, the FBI REALLY screwed up by not doing a better job at postioning their device, and they were really unlucky that the guy just so happened to be gettin his vehicle checked out. If you are not doing ANYTHING that could be seen as suspicious or someway linked to a national security incident what makes you think these agencys would even give 2 shits as to who the hell you even are?? BELIEVE me, these people have WAY bigger things to be concerned about. Most "terrorists" that are planning somesort of terroristic act are actually stateside! If this is at all a surprise to anyone, where have you been since 9/11? These agencys operate mostly in the US and "track" ANYBODY that could have any association at all with THEIR persons of interest. heres a fun fact.... you guys know there is a NSA "listening post" right in August, GA (the location of one of the biggest golf tournaments...cant remember the name,not a golf fan lol). This is 1000000% true because i spent 10 months at FT.Gordon,GA living TWO buildings away from this place. you think they are watching people overseas? im willing to bet that they are not! lol u guys gotta stop with this whole "they need a warrent" stuff. If any of you people that are complaining about it even had the SLIGHTEST clue as to what else these agencys are capable of, let alone do on a daily basis..... im pretty sure you would shit a brick. sooo be happy they are watching people THEY are interested in and not the "innocent" people.... i say that with quotes because, nobody is really innocent lol

[HalveBlue]

Supreme Court: Police need warrant to use GPS tracking on cars

Seems like this issue is settled then.

[fyneyoungstunna]

I love how the younger generation is callous to this issue and "oh its ok for them to do this" but if the fuckers made gaming systems illegal you guys would go apeshit!
fucking priorities man...

No they legally are NOT allowed to just put tracking devices where ever they please, personal property or not. the problem is you cant do anything about it unless you CATCH them doing it. Deniability is a bitch. But, I can almost guarantee you that any FEDERAL judge not in the pockets of somebody would grant a warrant for this.
For all you dumb fucks saying warrants are easy to come by, let me drop some knowledge on you: for a federal warrant (the ones requested by agencies) there is a 24-48 hr sitting period unless an eminent threat has been determined and two of three judges have to sign off on it.....just putting that out there......
The police warrants are different than federal warrants, and in most states now are not granted by "judges"......
DO WORK!

[axiomatik]

It's an interesting decision. Especially considering that the fact that the GPS tracker functions just the same as the Police following you around 24/7. And the police are allowed to do that with no warrant whatsoever. The only difference is if you were to drive on a large piece of private property, where the Police couldn't follow you. If the GPS tracker requires a warrant, why doesn't tracking people the old-fashioned way?

[kingkilburn]

It comes down to my car being my property and no person has the right or authority to tamper with it without my express permission or a warrant from a judge.

Beyond that some of the judges agreed that in the long term drivers DO have a reasonable expectation of privacy as the where and when they drive.

[revat619]

I agree with kingkilburn. That is all.

[redline racer510]

I don't like the idea of federal agents tracking people. If they can track us with no warrant it should be ok for us to track any federal agent and any of their family members as well, just saying. I am sure they wouldn't like the idea of other people knowing where they and there family are driving around. It's not so much as having a tracking device attached to your car its the thought that someone is tracking you that's the problem. If this is what they are publicly doing to investigate people imagine the things they don't tell us about, and the secrecy just bugs the hell out of me.

[TheWolf]

FBI's 'Stingray' Cellphone Tracker Stirs a Fight Over Search Warrants, Fourth Amendment - WSJ.com


they don't use GPS on cars, they now just simulate cellphone towers and utilize the cellphone in your product.. you don't expect privacy between your phone and your provider do you?

[kingkilburn]

These techniques are driving a constitutional debate about whether the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, but which was written before the digital age, is keeping pace with the times.

I would argue that the 4th Amendment is extremely clear and keeps up just fine. The Justice department is giving law enforcement far too much leeway and not doing anything about it until a case comes up they can't simply throw out.

[HalveBlue]

Welcome to the dark side of the digital age!

All those nifty electronic gadgets people tote around these days can be used for some seriously nefarious purposes.

I wonder how many people actually realize that their awesome, new smartphone doubles perfectly as a wire tapping device?

There's a reason everybody has to chuck their blackberry into those plastic bins before entering classified briefings...