love/hate knockoffs? vent here

[deolio]

in general, knockoffs piss me off. but in some cases they can be ok and in others they aren't.

knockoff ok:
-you just wanna build a fun track car for cheap, but don't act like it's the shit
-you've got a family to support on marginal income, but don't want to have to completely give up your passion for modding your car
-you broke a part and need a temporary fix
-aero for a drift car

knockoff not ok:
-your car cost over $12k
-you can afford to buy non-knockoff parts
-you want to make your car a "badass drift car"
-anything that comes under stress

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

Sorry Juan, I never intended to address you in particular or you advocating JDM.
just voicing my opinion to the statements you made about the industry in general.
It's entirely impersonal and I hope I did not come across as trying to attack
Likewise I'm more preferential to US aftermarket suppliers, but that's another discussion.

Sorry, just saw your post
no sweat man, I didn't take offense
it's a topic that I'm opinionated about because it sickens me the
continual flooding of crap look-a-like parts for our cars
I still think there are areas where products can improve
and/or where a few new products can be still be developed

[sirfallsalot243]

Ive bought knock off's before. I tend to stay away from them unless im in a bind, but even when I am in a bind, I REFUSE to use Megan parts. My exhaust didnt fit right when i bought it, I had a tension rod break after only a few months (heim completely ripped out of the TR body), ive tried their shitty ass short throw shifter... Fuck that. Constant rattling. Anything they make has a 6 month lifespan once put on the car, MAX. So fuck Megan.

"Ohhh, but theyve gotten better."

No they havent. They still sell the same crap they always have. Sure, their tension rods are good looking and adjustable and cheap. Doesnt do me any fucking good if they only last me eight weeks. Went back to stock, best decision i ever made.

I'm really not TOTALLY against knock offs, because it does force the real companies to stay competitive with their pricing. If the quality is there (which it rarely ever is), then ill consider it. Only after reading MANY peoples thoughts on that exact part.

[g6civcx]

OptionZero, we can continue in here.

Like I said earlier, copyrights only protect text, images, sounds, and maybe colours on the Web page.

If you don't lift their pictures and if you don't plagerise then you're okay.

Even if you have trade secrets you can't really show infringement. The only thing you can show is theft, like someone physically broke into your office or computer and physically remove the material. If someone independently invents the same thing then you're SOL.

You need (registered) trademarks and patents in order to have valid infringement claims.


The general rule of thumb for trademark infringement is consumer confusion. Keep in mind that trademarks identify the source, NOT the product like most people think.

For example, "ipod" refers to Apple Corporation, not the actual music player. "ipod" is the registered mark and "music player" is the generic term. "ipod music player" refers to music players sold by Apple.

Sidenote, Apple can actually sell anything with the "ipod" mark it wants because it owns the mark (if the scope of the registration is amended appropriately of course).


When I sell my own "ipod", and Apple sues me for infringement, the legal test becomes whether an average, reasonable, prudent consumer would think that my "ipod" came from Apple.

Does my marketing cause the consumer to think that I represent Apple?

If yes, then I infringe. If no, then I don't infringe.


In some cases the word becomes so generic that there is no infringement even if you use the trademark. The trademark becomes diluted.

Examples: zerox, kleenex, band-aid, etc.


I sell bodykit called "XYZ". Company ABC sells bodykit called "XYZ". This is a trademark question, especially since ABC does not own the trademark "XYZ"

Would a typical consumer think that I represent company ABC?


In most of the replica products, you see that people jump in and say that it's not right to copy. They clearly recognise that I don't represent ABC. This is prima facie evidence that there is no consumer confusion. So there is no trademark infringement.

[g6civcx]

A little bit more. If you draft your briefs or present oral arguments, I recommend you use generic terminology to describe the manufacturer.

For example, instead of saying: "The defendant removed 3 ipods from the kiosk"

I recommend you say: "The defendant removed 3 music players manufactured by Apple, Corp. from the kiosk".

If you watch a lot of experienced trial attorneys this is the lingo that they use. I've also seen they say things like "Ford Taurus car". Before I learned, I thought they were stupid for being redudant. How stupid can they be? A Taurus is clearly a car, but now I know that's the correct way to describe a trademark.


The reason is when the brief or transcript goes on appeal, the "ipod" trademark can change. Apple can decide to get out of the mp3 player market and use the "ipod" brand to sell cars, for example.

The defense can argue that the defendant could not physically remove 3 cars by himself, and if the judges aren't sharp, they'll buy his argument.

By that time you probably won't be on the case any more. It would be stupid to lose on a technicality like that but it can and does happen.

[wh0aitznic0]

I'll drop money on quality parts for stuff that keeps me safe and I know I won't regret in the long run if it breaks. For example, my suspension. Do you really want to risk putting your car in a ditch because you'd rather spend $140 than $200 on a RUCA? I wouldn't think so. I spent the money on littering my suspension with PBM and SPL components for that reason.

Aero, on the other hand, is aero. You, me and god know that you'll scrape it. How good will your $2000 investment to bring authentic everything BN-Sports into the country when you rip a chunk of it off on a road reflector? There is the issue with fitment but NOTHING will fit like OEM other than OEM. There's an exception to that, though. The OEM Kouki 180sx lip.

Wheels are the most subjective part of a car. All I know is that fake wheels work well enough to use but I myself would rather stand out from the crowd and have real rare wheels that nobody around has.

[victorw210]

i use a mix of real and knockoff parts i love my stances and my nardi wheel, i also love my xxr wheels because theyre cheap and look good and they are not blatant rip offs of a well known wheel as far as i know(xxr 522), i have an ebay exhaust that fits like shit but my roomate has 1 that fits good so its hit or miss. i hace the circuit sports rucas and wish i would have spent the extra money on pbm , i also have the circuit sports tie rod ends and subframe spacers and couldnt be happier

[ThatGuy]

Allow me to throw this wrench in to the gears for a minute.

Zilvia.net is a Private Owned Forum. We get the opportunity to make our own Rules and Guidelines that must be followed. It states directly in the Vendor Assistance that we will not allow items to be sold by our vendors that are "replicas/variants/copies/knockoffs/whatever" using the same name as the established company they are duplicating.

So, that throws the legal issues in a bind.

Just like your Right to Free Speech is waved when you post here. You do not have the ability to post whatever you want to post, you must abide by our rules.

It doesn't matter how much you want to justify this underhanded behavior (which it is underhanded whether you want to admit it or not) if it violates OUR RULES, then it will be handled.





Now, please continue beating your heads against the keyboard on each side of the argument.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

Zilvia.net is a Private Owned Forum. We get the opportunity to make our own Rules and Guidelines that must be followed. It states directly in the Vendor Assistance that we will not allow items to be sold by our vendors that are "replicas/variants/copies/knockoffs/whatever" using the same name as the established company they are duplicating.

So, that throws the legal issues in a bind.

Just like your Right to Free Speech is waved when you post here. You do not have the ability to post whatever you want to post, you must abide by our rules.

It doesn't matter how much you want to justify this underhanded behavior (which it is underhanded whether you want to admit it or not) if it violates OUR RULES, then it will be handled.

What is the legal issues being bound?

I agree with your rights to moderate the privately owned forums as you see fit. This is private property and you can do whatever you want. There is no expectation of fair treatment or freedom of speech. The moderators/admistrators have final authority in editing/deleting any subject matter.

I totally agree with this and this is your right to do as you see fit.


Here comes the question. Let's say for whatever reason a mod decides to ban user X. That's within the mod's rights.

The mod then makes a post saying "X = convicted child molester" in the publicly viewable forums. When a member asks to see the judge's decision convicting X of molesting children, the mod responds by saying that this is a private forum and the mods can do whatever they want. They don't need to post any evidence of the conviction.


Clearly, none of us gets to decide if someone is a child molester. At best, we can accuse them of being a child molester. Only a judge/jury can convict a person of being a child molester.

Let's say that X isn't actually a convicted child molester, but the school where X works happens to Google his name one day and finds the comment. X loses his job. His wife leaves him. The entire neighbourhood gets together and stones him to death.


Do you see any problem with this? Free speech allows the mod to post whatever he wants, but free speech stops at defamation, libel, slander, etc. What do you think?

[DALAZ_68]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

Here comes the question. Let's say for whatever reason a mod decides to ban user X. That's within the mod's rights.

The mod then makes a post saying "X = convicted child molester" in the publicly viewable forums. When a member asks to see the judge's decision convicting X of molesting children, the mod responds by saying that this is a private forum and the mods can do whatever they want. They don't need to post any evidence of the conviction.


Clearly, none of us gets to decide if someone is a child molester. At best, we can accuse them of being a child molester. Only a judge/jury can convict a person of being a child molester.

Let's say that X isn't actually a convicted child molester, but the school where X works happens to Google his name one day and finds the comment. X loses his job. His wife leaves him. The entire neighbourhood gets together and stones him to death.


Do you see any problem with this? Free speech allows the mod to post whatever he wants, but free speech stops at defamation, libel, slander, etc. What do you think?

if a judge and jury declared him to be a child molester and we have evidence of X being said user...it would be posted...usually when it comes to those situations of wondering why someone got pinked or banned etc, the typical group that isconstantly online...(sometimes even mods) will not mind sending a PM and showing you...

but who gives a flying fuck about a child molester who has his life screwed up over revealed info of his past...i certainly dont...doubt anyone here with a kid in there life would either...

you sound like you feel some pity for said type of person...why!? its not slander if its true...

i always say, its not talking shit, if what there sayin is true...period...


and i thought we were talking about parts...not child molesters!?

[ThatGuy]

This is not a case of slander or child molestation or any other crime you are trying to twist into the conversation.

If I tell you that you are not allowed in my home if you chose to smoke, and you make the conscience decision to spark up while you sit on my couch, guess what? I'm throwing your ass out of my house.

There is no "crime" committed. No conviction needed.

It is a lot more cut and dry then you are attempting to make it.

[ronmcdon]

Besides, I HIGHLY doubt a company inspecting one's credential would browse Zilvia for it.
(and if they do, you'd probably be better not working with them anyways)

Getting banned and/or discredited here isn't remotely going to ruin anyone's life.
Sure there are exceptions, but those are few & far between.

[Choku_Dorian]

Originally Posted by deolio

in general, knockoffs piss me off. but in some cases they can be ok and in others they aren't.

knockoff ok:
-you just wanna build a fun track car for cheap, but don't act like it's the shit
-you've got a family to support on marginal income, but don't want to have to completely give up your passion for modding your car
-you broke a part and need a temporary fix
-aero for a drift car

knockoff not ok:
-your car cost over $12k
-you can afford to buy non-knockoff parts
-you want to make your car a "badass drift car"
-anything that comes under stress

this. all of it. yes.

[fckillerbee]

i am the budget drifter....lol

I agree with deolio.

[Walperstyle]

Intercoolers are good

everything else is bad

Its still probably cheaper to know a few welders.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Here are my feelings about knockoffs:

Knockoff wheels are garbage. A cast copy of a forged wheel isn't going to be as strong or as light. An aluminum copy of a magnesium wheel isn't going to be as light.

Wheel designs are a dime a dozen, and the vast majority of them are hideous. It's not the look that's the problem as much as the development required to make a strong, light wheel like the CE28N or RE30. Go ahead and knock off my CE28Ns all you want, but my wheels, my real wheels, are lighter and stronger than yours.

Knockoff arms are garbage. How many factories in China have drifters as development drivers, and how many of those drifters drive their cars daily? Crap rod ends and iffy steel does not a reliable and properly-engineered car part make.

Knockoff coilovers are garbage, but perfect for the mental defectives pretending to be hellaflush all-stars; most of the people running knockoffs don't know how cars are supposed to ride.

I would continue but the fakers will always fake.

[soreballz]

Originally Posted by Walperstyle

Intercoolers are good

Ever looked at the INSIDE of the piping of a knock-off/China intercooler? Slag everywhere, and no smooth beads, just big nasty rings of shitty welding.
Sure, the outside looks good, but when the poor welding creates restriction, and the chance of shooting little chunks of metal into your engine... Well, that's not really cool.

But like you said, it's good to know people that are good at welding. Pick up a super cheap IC, grind out all the welds, smooth everything out, and have a competent welder put it back together... The end result is a decent IC for a low price.

[nevertheless]

What about knock offs on a gas saver/DD?

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

This is not a case of slander or child molestation or any other crime you are trying to twist into the conversation.

If I tell you that you are not allowed in my home if you chose to smoke, and you make the conscience decision to spark up while you sit on my couch, guess what? I'm throwing your ass out of my house.

There is no "crime" committed. No conviction needed.

It is a lot more cut and dry then you are attempting to make it.

You're talking about the premie forum. Because it's private, you can do whatever you want in there.

The rest of the forum is restricted to post but open to the public for viewing.

How do you feel now?


Plus you still think I'm protecting knockoff companies or something. I already told you that I am hader than infringers than anybody on this forum.

If you are ever in the Washington, D.C. area you have an open invitation to come to my office for a seminar on what intellectual property is and how companies can protect themselves. Lunch will be on me

[soreballz]

^Dude, seriously, shut the fuck up. Take your ugly car and your boner for knockoffs and go troll elsewhere.

[ThatGuy]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

You're talking about the premie forum. Because it's private, you can do whatever you want in there.

The rest of the forum is restricted to post but open to the public for viewing.

How do you feel now?


Plus you still think I'm protecting knockoff companies or something. I already told you that I am hader than infringers than anybody on this forum.

If you are ever in the Washington, D.C. area you have an open invitation to come to my office for a seminar on what intellectual property is and how companies can protect themselves. Lunch will be on me

No, I am talking about Zilvia.net.

Not any one section, the forum in it's entirety.

I feel fine, though I am growing tired of attempting to explain the same point to you in various fashions.

While this forum may be open to the public for registration and reading, it is still a privately owned and operated forum. In such, it has Rules and Guidelines that must be followed by anyone wishing to utilize it. For all of our members, this includes such restrictions as no freedom of speech, as we do not allow derogatory slurs to be used, and punish those who do. For our advertisers, this means not misrepresenting your products, and that you must divulge that your are selling fake/variant/replica/KNOCK OFF parts vice the actual parts.

As for your offer, there is no such thing as a free lunch, but thanks.

Now, it seemed that you started this Thread to see why people disliked Knock-off parts, when in actuality, all you wanted to do was stir up an argument in an attempt to flex your "legal prowess" that no one truly cares to listen to. This is apparent by the responses you have received to your arguments.

I am now officially finished attempting to explain Zilvia's official stance on the matter of knock-offs and our vendors. This thread can stay open, but if you wish to discuss it further, then feel free to speak to an Admin in PM.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

it breaks down like this.

Real shit> OEM> Fake Shit.

that is all

[irax]

srsly guiz..... this thread... again? it should of been locked or deleted right after it opened.

We all know Zilvia.net's official stance on knock offs.
we all know that more than 60% (made up number) of us don't give a shit (probably more like 80%)
knock offs will keep coming,
people will still rock legit stuff...
i dgaf... I got legit parts where it matters and fakes where it doesn't
I support local industry more than over seas legit stuff
I support innovators over imitators
I'll buy fakes that fit good and let people guess
I'll not complain about legit stuff that doesn't fit exactly because all bodykits need work to fit properly
I know zilvia isn't about drifting, but drifters are about looking cool.. to quote famous words from an epic event "Drifters are the biggest bunch of posers, they just want to be seen looking cool, what happened to having fun!?"
You care that I have knock offs on my car? thats cool, I'm too busy having fun! You can go on and quote legislature or morality issues like it will really make a difference. But the bottom line is that knock offs will either make legit innovators work harder and make newer and better shit, or destroy them since they will not ebb and flow with the market.

[irax]

ps: if you know where I can get that hoody in adult sizes that would be great.

[Om1kron]

ban the guy in my sig from zilvia aka thread posted. And make it a rule not to bring up any legal matters that do not concern YOU in any way or try to stir shit up between vendors selling real and fake shit (moraly since it doesn't have a united states registered trademark personally signed by president obama and the state council on every part.)

violating such will get you pinked or removed from the site in it's entirety.

problem solved.

[ronmcdon]

now you guys are bieng childish

[SlideWell]

if someone is going to buy knockoff shit, thats their own business, but holy fuck, people need to stop talking about they can get this, or they have that without saying its a knock off. i.e.
"i can get a uras kit for $350"
"you mean a KNOCK-OFF kit"
"yeah, same shit"
"no it isnt, GTFO"

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

2. If a company doesn't want to go through the process and sells the product any way, the Founding Fathers considers this to be that the company doesn't care about their product. It only costs $100 to register your invention and anyone can do it. You don't need a legal background.

So if they don't want to pay $100 to protect their own invention from being copied, why should we care?

3. Selling your product without going through the process is the same as intentionally leaving your money on public property and not claiming your money. Anyone can take the money and it's not considered theft because you never claimed it. Whose fault is it that you lost money?

I am not sure where the $100 figure comes from, the last time I filed for a patent, the patent filing fee alone was over $1k. I engaged a law firm to file the patent, and for a relatively simple patent everything cost around $10k. I might have been able to write the patent myself (although I wouldn't say it is as simple as "anyone can do it"), but it is one thing to get a patent, but a different thing to defend it in court, and I wanted a patent that was legally "air tight". The last thing I want is to write my own patent filing and find that it can be easily gotten around because of a poor choice in wording...

Now if you spend $10k, you will have a really hard time just trying to get to break even on a product in this market. If you try to re-coup the cost in, say, 100 sets of the product, you are tacking on $100 per set. That's alot, considering the prices of parts in this market. And my experience is if you sell 100 sets of a product, that's a pretty good selling product for this market.

But the biggest problem is this, the current wait time for a patent filing to be processed is 5-8 years:

How long does it take for the Patent Office to make a decision?

Where would this market be in 5-8 years? Who could afford to wait? It is easy to blame companies for not protecting their own intellectual property, but the truth is the system simply doesn't work -- patents are too costly and take too long.

[GenPac]

Interesting points. Mixing reality in a thread of theory. thanks, Kuah.

[ranger240]

240sx = knock off sports car

that doesn't necessarily make it bad, it just needs work to get right. like alot of knock off stuff requiring better spherical bearings/whatever

now some other knock off sports cars, like hyundai tiberons and stuff... those are equivalent to the real crappy ebay knock off parts out there that are just worthless and never worth the effort.