Weight obsession - part weights on S13

[Jonnie Fraz]

I am waiting for Bill to jump in on this one...lol

[WangonwWarrior]

Z32 aluminum uprights weight 7-8 lbs. less and that is unsprung weight on the rear



Im about to do mine. Only problem is you will have to use a fork type rear strut like the Z32 or you can weld on a different top piece

[kognition]

I hear what you guys are saying about removing as much as possible. From my experience, the lightest car does not win championships. The most well balanced and consistent car does. And i am just as passionate as the next guy about weight reduction. But unless i see you out there winning contingency money with it, it doesn't mean much. It is just one of many aspects. It isn't rocket science. Once you are happy with your chassis stiffness/weight, you move on to the other areas that need attention. When i started working with World Racing on the super light AWD car, we were all excited for the debut. I flew all the way to Sebring just to support the car. The car sat all weekend due to electrical gremlins. They put alot of work into weight reduction, and spent tens of thousands on hauling a fully staffed crew and rig out there. It is a half a million dollar car! Kognition has two championships allready in the bag with two sponsored time attack teams this season. They are not the lightest nor the most powerful cars in their class. And certainly not the most well funded. They are the most balanced, and consistent cars in their class.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by kognition

I hear what you guys are saying about removing as much as possible. From my experience, the lightest car does not win championships. The most well balanced and consistent car does. And i am just as passionate as the next guy about weight reduction. But unless i see you out there winning contingency money with it, it doesn't mean much.

I couldn't agree with you more. All to often people get caught up with weight, when the truth is that a reliable and consistant car is what really counts most. Certainly there are all things we can do to save weight that help out, and that are easily changed (wheels, carbon fiber panels, suspension parts) but beyond that, I (and I may sound very simple for admitting this) would much rather just play with the horsepower of the car, and the setup. Trust me, I'd love a super light car, but in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather try to make more HP and find more traction after a certain point.

As before I do not discredit the bantam weight obsession, I just think there is often to much emphasis put on it for street based cars.

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

^
Dammmmm u got major credibility !!! U post something and u get thousand of views to read your words!!! major pull....

That's because he's one of the few of us on here that actually knows what he's talking about/capable of working on his car. Once you seperate the wheat from the chaff on Zilvia, you'll soon realize who the real DIY guys are

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by codyace

That's because he's one of the few of us on here that actually knows what he's talking about/capable of working on his car. Once you seperate the wheat from the chaff on Zilvia, you'll soon realize who the real DIY guys are

Wait, so are you a real "DIY Guy" if you need a DIY?

LOL

[Def]

Originally Posted by codyace

I couldn't agree with you more. All to often people get caught up with weight, when the truth is that a reliable and consistant car is what really counts most. Certainly there are all things we can do to save weight that help out, and that are easily changed (wheels, carbon fiber panels, suspension parts) but beyond that, I (and I may sound very simple for admitting this) would much rather just play with the horsepower of the car, and the setup. Trust me, I'd love a super light car, but in the grand scheme of things, I'd rather try to make more HP and find more traction after a certain point.

As before I do not discredit the bantam weight obsession, I just think there is often to much emphasis put on it for street based cars.

I do agree that weight loss shouldn't be a major focus before the car is dialed in, but I feel like in my case, I've got the suspension pretty well DONE. It's all solid/rod end/spherical - good dampers - roll center is corrected somewhat - roll stiffness and balance is good. I just need less weight to hustle it around the track quicker. Plus it's R-comps all the time as soon as these NT-05s die(they're lasting a surprising amount of time as they wear down). I really haven't paid a huge amount of attention to dropping the pounds on the car up until now, and I feel like that's the next area to mess with the car.

If you were making a general observation of Zilvia, then yea, I'd say a lot of guys spend way too much time obsessing over weight when their car is just not well put together or setup. You'll gain way more time making sure everything works well together vs. taking off 50 lbs on your car and having it be setup like a nightmare.

Oh another note, went to a local shop and saw a Koni yellow piston vs. a Stance coilover piston. The stance piston was laughable. So was their adjuster mechanism.

[xpertsnowcarver]

Originally Posted by Def

I just need less weight to hustle it around the track quicker. Plus it's R-comps all the time as soon as these NT-05s die(they're lasting a surprising amount of time as they wear down). I really haven't paid a huge amount of attention to dropping the pounds on the car up until now, and I feel like that's the next area to mess with the car.

Do I get some credit for this epiphony of yours?

Seriously though... You daily that car don't you? There isn't much for you to do.

I have nothing under the dash except wires and an ecu, no stereo, no driver or pass windows, carpet, sound deadening, panels, super light wheels... I could go on but, this is no longer a car anyone should drive on the street.. If you're not using your car to get around anymore, then go for it. If you already took care of suspension and power, which I know you have, the only two things left for you are aero and weight reduction.

[josephin510]

Originally Posted by Def

Oh another note, went to a local shop and saw a Koni yellow piston vs. a Stance coilover piston. The stance piston was laughable. So was their adjuster mechanism.

What do you mean?

[codyace]

Originally Posted by Def

If you were making a general observation of Zilvia, then yea, I'd say a lot of guys spend way too much time obsessing over weight when their car is just not well put together or setup. You'll gain way more time making sure everything works well together vs. taking off 50 lbs on your car and having it be setup like a nightmare.

Yes my comment was certainly generic. I know you (and some of us) certainly have oru setups about as modified as they can or should be for a street based car (we have the same mods) so I can understand your particular focus of keeping it light. But as before, I just wanted to stress to the casual observer, that attention to the chassis setup is MUCH more important when startin gout, than keeping it light on it's feet.

Oh another note, went to a local shop and saw a Koni yellow piston vs. a Stance coilover piston. The stance piston was laughable. So was their adjuster mechanism.

I just got in a discussion today with an s2000 buddy of mine who swears up and down his JDM type coilovers are the best option. He didn't really grasp how my car has 'home made coilovers' yet handles so well. Oh the power of print (well the media)!

[godrifttoday]

^
it could be also driver.

And DEF

Dammmmm u got major credibility !!! U post something and u get thousand of views to read your words!!! major pull....

[Def]

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

^
it could be also driver.

And DEF

Dammmmm u got major credibility !!! U post something and u get thousand of views to read your words!!! major pull....

Yea, I've got the S chassis groupies...

[SlideKing92]

Get the BN Style inverted hatch from chaser.... Im debating picking one of these up and seeing how much weight it will shave off, Just my 2 cents though

[e1_griego]

Can't you back to trolling TCL?

[SoSideways]

Yeah I am definitely going to sell off these Stance coilovers as soon as I have a chance. Riding around like I'm bouncing on a pogo stick is not fun.

[Wookie384]

Originally Posted by Corbic

As promised
YouTube - Nissan 350Z 2007model VS. Honda S2000

350z best lap 1:07,63
S2K best lap 1:09,17

YouTube - The Ulitimate FR Challenge Z33 vs. S2000 - Hot Version International - 1/2
YouTube - The Ulitimate FR Challenge Z33 vs. S2000 - Hot Version International 2/2

Originally Posted by Def

That's not really that big of a surprise in stock form, as the S2000 understeers a bit in AP2 trim and is pretty slow compared to an HR Z33. That 1.5 s difference is almost completely up to power differences.

Originally Posted by Def

^Just watched the videos. Of course a modded NA Z33 HR will make boatloads more power than an S2000. It looked like the S2000 handled a bit better from apex speeds, but the Z33 would just pull out from there.

Originally Posted by Corbic

The nodded cars in the second video are not HR cars.

And that is my point, the S2K weight and adgillity are out matched by the Zs power.

To be fair in the S2K's defense the one tested is a heavier model. You can see the S2K has navi/video screen, and if I'm not mistaken the VGS model as tested is useless and heavier. AP1's are known for being twitchy in the corners, but you can still get an AP2's rear end to break traction, and they talk about it in the video below, it also shows the S2K being slower but not by that much, they even agree the the S2K handles better because it's lighter perhaps? Which is what this topic is about light weight cars.

[godrifttoday]

Hey Cody wasn't there a link I think on Nissanroad racing about koni build and what parts u need? Maybe def should know?

[slider2828]

Man, seriously you can't compare cars on the track.... Weight is weight period. It does make the car handle better in corners under breaking and under acceleration period. For comparing cars, that ebisu east course is a power course. Long corners and uphill are for power. If we were more on a flat track with less elevation change and more technical tracks would be an S2k track. Hence that is what the late Tanabe-san from Amuse said at the beginning, both cars have different characteristics therefore the track can make a huge difference.

Adequate power is important, but on our S chassis that is totally not balanced, suspension and rear downforce is the most important period. I do trackdays a lot and so does racepar and lot of other guys that spank porsches all day. But whatever, weight is an all around factor, HP means nothing. 20WHP difference vs 20lb loss, I'd take the 20lb loss especially in the front end of the S chassis. So we can't say a 100/30 whp/tq difference can be made up that easily, but a 20-30 whp can be with weight.

I will be at Laguna and another track this month, hopefully I get some video hahaha....

[SoSideways]

20lbs lost in the front is easy. Replacing the stock hood with an aftermarket FRP hood will get you there.

Lighter brakes like Def's new hotness will also help.

[Wookie384]

All this talk about lightweight S chassis got me thinking what my target weight should be for my NA SR'd hatch...

[codyace]

Originally Posted by projectRDM

There is definitely a balance to be had without just chopping the car to pieces and boosting it to death.

This sums up my thoughts as well. There is undoubtedly a preferred combintation here. To much HP and no weight is just as bad as to much weight and no power. To me 350-400 whp turbo 2.0/2.4 in a 2300-2600 lb car is almost ideal for a street based S chassis car. That's C6 Z06 power to weight level. That's not to say that 450-500 whp in the same weight will be bad, but you need to put some serious rubber under it, and really change the driving style with a car.

Originally Posted by Wookie384

All this talk about lightweight S chassis got me thinking what my target weight should be for my NA SR'd hatch...

When torque isn't readily available (persay in an N/A 2.0 engine) I'd vote for as light as you could get that platform.

[xpertsnowcarver]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

20lbs lost in the front is easy. Replacing the stock hood with an aftermarket FRP hood will get you there.

Lighter brakes like Def's new hotness will also help.

Yes, they will.

Originally Posted by Wookie384

All this talk about lightweight S chassis got me thinking what my target weight should be for my NA SR'd hatch...

2000lb (wet weight w/o driver) is easy to get to. I'm at 2280 right now, and I haven't messed with the front and rear windshields, hatch, fuel tank, front and rear bumpers, fenders.

[godrifttoday]

<object width="640" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GCqznVv55ac&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&versi on=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GCqznVv55ac&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&versi on=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCqzn...layer_embedded

[Wookie384]

Originally Posted by codyace

When torque isn't readily available (persay in an N/A 2.0 engine) I'd vote for as light as you could get that platform.

Originally Posted by xpertsnowcarver

2000lb (wet weight w/o driver) is easy to get to. I'm at 2280 right now, and I haven't messed with the front and rear windshields, hatch, fuel tank, front and rear bumpers, fenders.

Hmmm... Sounds like I, as well as the car, need to go on a diet, I weigh about 260~270 lol... I plan on gutting out the car, it's currently a SE model w/o sunroof (thank god!) which I plan on downgrading to a base model, luckily, I have a friend who has a base model and wants all my power accessories, so if/when we finally get around to doing the swap I can weigh all the parts and post that up. I do have a 4.36 final drive to help with the lack of power, and I don't plan on going lexan anytime soon but maybe in the distant future that would be a possibility.The car is currently a rolling shell and I plan on getting it running in stock trim so I can learn the characteristics of the car being that this is my first S chassis and first RWD car.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by Wookie384

Hmmm... Sounds like I, as well as the car, need to go on a diet, I weigh about 260~270 lol... I plan on gutting out the car, it's currently a SE model w/o sunroof (thank god!) which I plan on downgrading to a base model, luckily, I have a friend who has a base model and wants all my power accessories, so if/when we finally get around to doing the swap I can weigh all the parts and post that up. I do have a 4.36 final drive to help with the lack of power, and I don't plan on going lexan anytime soon but maybe in the distant future that would be a possibility.The car is currently a rolling shell and I plan on getting it running in stock trim so I can learn the characteristics of the car being that this is my first S chassis and first RWD car.

With an N/A car, it may not be a bad idea to possibly even look into a 4.6 and then raise the rev's to the 8300-8500 range. That would be kinda fun.

Good friend of mine had a NX2000 that used to be a full on N/A car with a upgraded final drive and bolt ons(hotshot header, intake, JWT S5 cams, etc etc) and it was a blast to rocket it to north of 8000 rpm) He's since went VVL (which is even more fun as it isn't totally gutless) but man that thing loved the upper RPM

[SoSideways]

If it's VVL then he definitely should be around 8000-8500rpm all day.

If it has a DE bottom end, then forget it, 9000rpm all day.

[slider2828]

^^ I think that was a full cf turbo s2k LOL.... Its a great car, but its a beef'ed up miata LOL..... maybe a little better than the miata....

[Wookie384]

Originally Posted by codyace

With an N/A car, it may not be a bad idea to possibly even look into a 4.6 and then raise the rev's to the 8300-8500 range. That would be kinda fun.

Good friend of mine had a NX2000 that used to be a full on N/A car with a upgraded final drive and bolt ons(hotshot header, intake, JWT S5 cams, etc etc) and it was a blast to rocket it to north of 8000 rpm) He's since went VVL (which is even more fun as it isn't totally gutless) but man that thing loved the upper RPM

I thought about the the 4.6 but to be honest I'm too broke to afford it, and I would really like to get the car running already. But I might look into it also in the future. Because N/A headers that fit a LHD S13 are pretty much impossible to find I'm actually looking for a header for a KA24DE so I can chop off the the KA flange and weld on the SR flange, supposedly that's the route N/A SR owners with LHD chassis go, But yeah, I will have some decent bolt-ons any maybe a tune hopefully.

Originally Posted by SoSideways

If it's VVL then he definitely should be around 8000-8500rpm all day.

If it has a DE bottom end, then forget it, 9000rpm all day.

My motor is an S13 SR20DE which is believed to be out of a Silvia Q's model (No VVL).


Back to the original topic of this thread... How about going Silvia front, isn't there a significance difference in weight since the pop up lights have all those parts as opposed to the fixed Silvia lights?

[SoSideways]

Originally Posted by Wookie384

Back to the original topic of this thread... How about going Silvia front, isn't there a significance difference in weight since the pop up lights have all those parts as opposed to the fixed Silvia lights?

Silvia front isn't as aero dynamic as the pop up front.

All you have to do is take the motors out and the remaining front light assembly will be VERY LIGHT.

[Wookie384]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

Silvia front isn't as aero dynamic as the pop up front.

All you have to do is take the motors out and the remaining front light assembly will be VERY LIGHT.

Hmmm... I've always thought the Silvia front was better in the aero dept. and maybe even yeild a better coefficent of drag, I guess I was wrong. I guess it would be smart to at the very least convert to Hella housings for the front end, those should considerably lighter than the glass housings, correct?

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by Wookie384

I thought about the the 4.6 but to be honest I'm too broke to afford it, and I would really like to get the car running already. But I might look into it also in the future. Because N/A headers that fit a LHD S13 are pretty much impossible to find I'm actually looking for a header for a KA24DE so I can chop off the the KA flange and weld on the SR flange, supposedly that's the route N/A SR owners with LHD chassis go, But yeah, I will have some decent bolt-ons any maybe a tune hopefully.

Don't worry Kevin. If I decide that we need 4.6 gear's, we'll get em. I honestly think that the 4.36's that we both already have is the hot ticket for a street driven car though.

Back to the original topic of this thread... How about going Silvia front, isn't there a significance difference in weight since the pop up lights have all those parts as opposed to the fixed Silvia lights?

The silvia front end weighs around 40lbs lighter from what I have read. Every single part is lighter and the cooling is definitely better. While the s-13 pop-up front end is more aerodynamic for the most part I am more than willing to bet that the difference is minute though, especially with aftermarket bumpers and such. The ONLY reasons that I'm not chomping at the bit to get a silvia front is because of my Gracer aero that I already have and the fact that I already have a shitty (but light) "carbon" hood. That Gracer bumper and sides are just too sexy together to take them off just yet...