Subaru BRZ = 240sx Successor

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by simmode1

^^^I think I get what he's trying to say though. There's tons of guys here on Zilvia that seem to love their S-Chassis, but their preference for the FRS over the GC 2.0T seems like they'd prefer an AE86 over an S-chassis.

Or an Miata over a S13.

There was no Toyota/Nissan/Honda/Ford/Chevy "S13". They each had their own approach, by 1988 Toyota had ditched the RWD Celica and Honda had always been FWD.

Drift Freaq, would your argument about the 240Z not be just as flawed as my comparison to a MR2? The 911 is Rear Engined after all, and cost double, if not tripple the MSRP.

I'm basing my argument simply on price-point comparisons of "similar cars".

[initial_jc]

Originally Posted by 240sxcure

I'm 6'2" and I sat in one with more than enough room.

tight as long as my knee isn't banging the ebrake

[axiomatik]

Originally Posted by simmode1

^^^I think I get what he's trying to say though. There's tons of guys here on Zilvia that seem to love their S-Chassis, but their preference for the FRS over the GC 2.0T seems like they'd prefer an AE86 over an S-chassis.

The FR-S is just about the same size and weight as a 240SX. The GC 2.0T is larger, and weighs as much as a Mustang. What is surprising?

The AE86 is much harder to find, the aftermarket is smaller, the styling (inside and out) is much more dated. Sure, some people would prefer an AE86, while others want a modern rendition of the s-chassis. And the BR-Z/FR-S are as close to a modern s-chassis as we are going to see for a while.

[badbob2121]

200hp @7000rpm and 151lbft at 6400rpm...

I dont understand any of the hype/interest with these cars.

[LoneStarSilvia]

Originally Posted by badbob2121

I dont understand any of the hype/interest with these cars.

It's cool, I guess all these long running car reviewing companies, Car & Driver and etc totally don't get the hype either.

It's really not about if you folk out there don't think the car has enough pwer or not, it's about creating a car that's going to sell like hot cakes and hopefully prod other companies into making this type of sub-$30k (before dealer mark ups) sportscar. Something the Genesis failed to do. Besides the 370Z, I can't think of another Japanese, or Asian affordable RWD sports car in current production.

Seriously, have all you nay sayers forgot your beloved S-Chassis once made 205hp WITH a turbo? I'm sure it won't be long until forced induction options are available.

[future]

It needs a sti swap

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

Originally Posted by badbob2121

200hp @7000rpm and 151lbft at 6400rpm...

I dont understand any of the hype/interest with these cars.

KA24DE
Max power: 155 hp (115 kW) @ 5600 rpm
Max torque: 160 ft·lbf (217 Nm) @ 4400 rpm

I dont understand any of the hype/interest with these cars.

[axiomatik]

Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe

KA24DE
Max power: 155 hp (115 kW) @ 5600 rpm
Max torque: 160 ft·lbf (217 Nm) @ 4400 rpm

I dont understand any of the hype/interest with these cars.

I was going to say the exact same thing. 240's weren't exactly powerful when they were on sale, and yet here we all are.

[badbob2121]

Cool... Ive never owned or had interest in a KA either..

I recently bought a new car, briefly looked at the BRZ, and the comparison was laughable between the other cars I was looking at.

Just my opinion, no need to get butt hurt

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by axiomatik

The FR-S is just about the same size and weight as a 240SX. The GC 2.0T is larger, and weighs as much as a Mustang. What is surprising?

.... while others want a modern rendition of the s-chassis. And the BR-Z/FR-S are as close to a modern s-chassis as we are going to see for a while.

I don't have a problem with the FRS/BRZ chassis. I think it's brilliant. But both on the track and the street, the GC 2.0T walks all over the 86's nimble chassis. It's that motor. Personally, I don't care if the new 86 is smaller and lighter because this does not translate into actual speed.

You're paying the same price for a car that is slower. No way to get around that. That Road & Track comparison had the 86 coming in more than 2 seconds slower than the Genesis. And that's just in stock form. The Genesis aftermarket is already putting up huge numbers...

I could understand the appeal if the 86 was MUCH cheaper, but it isn't. By that same logic, the base Mustang should be the best value. But I feel that the turbo setup on the Genesis gives it the most bang for your buck performance and power production.

I'm just at the point where I'm tired of considering cars that need MAJOR work like engine swaps, N/A to turbo projects to see significant increases in performance. If S2000 turbo kits are any comparison, you're gonna be spending an additional $5000+ just to reach the Genesis' stock performance whereas the Genesis can do a minor turbo upgrade with supporting mods and it'll be knocking on the GT Mustang's door...

Originally Posted by LoneStarSilvia

It's cool, I guess all these long running car reviewing companies, Car & Driver and etc totally don't get the hype either.

Don't get me wrong, those guys have a valid opinion. The BRZ/FRS feels great to drive, it's a driver's car. Thats a valid opinion. But the fact is that it's slower in real world performance. Thats not bang for your buck, IMO.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by axiomatik

I was going to say the exact same thing. 240's weren't exactly powerful when they were on sale, and yet here we all are.swapping motors and forever butthurt about not getting the SR20 stock

Fixed it.

"We're all here" because the 240SX fell into obscurity and became worthless until people started drifting and swapping motors at the turn of the century.

Also 155hp was powerful in the land of 80-120hp 4-bangers and 205hp V8s.

The 240sx's weight was also not noteworthy back then, simply average.

A 1990 Probe was 2,730, it's V6 made 140hp as did the Turbo 4. The NA motor was 110hp.

A Celica tipped the scales at 2,447 in coupe guise with a neck snapping 103 - 130hp.

Fuck a "full size" Accord 2,730 in both Coupe and Sedan. HP was 125-140.

A 240sx was mediocre, start to finish. Power, Handling, Quality, Price, ect.

There are no poems of its driver feed back nor epics written of its thrilling tuning potential from the early 90's.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by simmode1

I'm just at the point where I'm tired of considering cars that need MAJOR work like engine swaps, N/A to turbo projects to see significant increases in performance. If S2000 turbo kits are any comparison, you're gonna be spending an additional $5000+ just to reach the Genesis' stock performance whereas the Genesis can do a minor turbo upgrade with supporting mods and it'll be knocking on the GT Mustang's door...

I hear you on this one. The engine layout of the FBRSZ is not conducive to an easy junkyard turbo build. It will need a lot of thought and fabrication.

I hate the Geni because it's fucking ugly. For what it costs to upgrade, turbo, mani, exhaust, injectors, FMIC, ECU, ect


You'll be asking "why didn't I just buy the Mustang GT".

Oh, $600 a month.... That is why

[simmode1]

^^^I used to hate the Genesis coupe's facelift too, but that ugly fucker has grown on me like the 370z has... lol

From what I'm hearing, the 2013 Genesis 2.0T has a huge intercooler. They say it's actually bigger than the twin used on the GTR. As for injectors, most Genny tuners are picking up used Evo injectors. Not quite sure how that integrated turbo+manifold setup is supposed to work out.

Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe

KA24DE
Max power: 155 hp (115 kW) @ 5600 rpm
Max torque: 160 ft·lbf (217 Nm) @ 4400 rpm

I dont understand any of the hype/interest with these cars.

Exactly. These buyers are gonna be locked in the same upgrade paths as KA powered 240's, S2000'S, Miata and old school AE86's: Hoping their stock internals hold up to the slightest amount of boost. The whole reason S-Chassis got popular in the first place is because of the mod friendly turbo motor.

[LoneStarSilvia]

Originally Posted by Corbic

I hate the Geni because it's fucking ugly.

This is just about the only reason I don't consider the Genesis that much, I just can't force myself to like it, and I can even get over the Hyaundai-ness. I don't know how true it is, but I heard the interior is cheap as shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. I'm a stickler for factory Nav, alcantara and other creature comforts which is very appealing for the BRZ. But I ain't touchin that shit for over $30k. I'll wait until it's a few years old.

I'll look into the Genesis more, but it's just a personal preferance that I tend to dig a light nimble chassis.

Edit: Ugh, I can't do it, they somehow made it uglier in 2013. Damn. I will give it to you, the engine specs are nice, though heavier than I'd like.

Double edit: For the record I was comparing the FRSBRZ engine to the first gen S13 SR's.

Triple edit: I realize that all of the ugliness in the new Genesis can be changed with a good looking front bumper, that shit is terrible. I wonder if people prefer the the V6 or the turbo more.

[greddy2die]

I think it looks rather good.

[axiomatik]

Originally Posted by simmode1

I don't have a problem with the FRS/BRZ chassis. I think it's brilliant. But both on the track and the street, the GC 2.0T walks all over the 86's nimble chassis. It's that motor. Personally, I don't care if the new 86 is smaller and lighter because this does not translate into actual speed.

You're paying the same price for a car that is slower. No way to get around that. That Road & Track comparison had the 86 coming in more than 2 seconds slower than the Genesis. And that's just in stock form. The Genesis aftermarket is already putting up huge numbers...

I could understand the appeal if the 86 was MUCH cheaper, but it isn't. By that same logic, the base Mustang should be the best value. But I feel that the turbo setup on the Genesis gives it the most bang for your buck performance and power production.

I'm just at the point where I'm tired of considering cars that need MAJOR work like engine swaps, N/A to turbo projects to see significant increases in performance. If S2000 turbo kits are any comparison, you're gonna be spending an additional $5000+ just to reach the Genesis' stock performance whereas the Genesis can do a minor turbo upgrade with supporting mods and it'll be knocking on the GT Mustang's door...


Don't get me wrong, those guys have a valid opinion. The BRZ/FRS feels great to drive, it's a driver's car. Thats a valid opinion. But the fact is that it's slower in real world performance. Thats not bang for your buck, IMO.

I guess we just want different things out of cars. Frankly, I don't care about what kind of lap times a street car puts down. I am more interested in enjoying the drive, and I will take light and nimble over big and powerful everyday. If I were building a racecar, then yes, lap times would be important. But if I'm just looking to buy a car to drive to work during the week and drive in the mountains on the weekends, lap times are irrelevant.

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by axiomatik

But if I'm just looking to buy a car to drive to work during the week and drive in the mountains on the weekends, lap times are irrelevant.

You are right, we do see things differently. From my perspective, how much nimbleness do you need to go to the grocery store or to work? If you're gonna be on alot of streets and highways, superior passing power seems like it would be preferable but I guess not. From my perspective, a driver's car like the BRZ/FRS doesn't really start to show its appeal UNLESS its on a small track. Other than that, it's like... meh.

I mean, if it had a small turbo on it with maybe 240hp or so, I'd be all over it. I'm pretty sure even a stock S2000 would outrun it...

Edit: Yep.
BRZ 0-60: 7.3 sec
AP1 S2000 0-60: 5.8 sec.

Man seriously. Eff this car.

[starfire240]

Originally Posted by simmode1

You are right, we do see things differently. From my perspective, how much nimbleness do you need to go to the grocery store or to work? If you're gonna be on alot of streets and highways, superior passing power seems like it would be preferable but I guess not. From my perspective, a driver's car like the BRZ/FRS doesn't really start to show its appeal UNLESS its on a small track. Other than that, it's like... meh.

I mean, if it had a small turbo on it with maybe 240hp or so, I'd be all over it. I'm pretty sure even a stock S2000 would outrun it...

Edit: Yep.
BRZ 0-60: 7.3 sec
AP1 S2000 0-60: 5.8 sec.

Man seriously. Eff this car.

^^^ agreed. FRS/BRZ has a long way to go until it can be a legend like the s-chassis.

[VROOOM]

the 240sx is a legend? you do realize that a 1998 240sx LE was more expensive brand new than a 2013 FR-S.

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Or an Miata over a S13.

There was no Toyota/Nissan/Honda/Ford/Chevy "S13". They each had their own approach, by 1988 Toyota had ditched the RWD Celica and Honda had always been FWD.

Drift Freaq, would your argument about the 240Z not be just as flawed as my comparison to a MR2? The 911 is Rear Engined after all, and cost double, if not tripple the MSRP.

I'm basing my argument simply on price-point comparisons of "similar cars".

yes I do suppose you could cry foul for the 911 statement. So we both stretched things a little I will give you that.

I really do not do the price point comparison deal though because at the time no one had produced a 2350Lb pound sports car that had a 150hp for 4k. It was completely unheard of. Most cost more the 10k range.

It really was a ground breaker and its what really established Japanese Sports cars in the world. One could say ya there was the Roadster or the Toyota 2000GT. Though the Roadster did not sell in the kind of the numbers the 240Z did. The Toyota was also astronomical in pricing for its day like the LFA is today, and did not have high production numbers.

Effectively the 240Z brought a European type Sports car to the masses for unheard of prices. It also competed against the 911 in competition and won several years in a row. This is why I brought up the 911.

The Opel GT was one of the little shit box's of the day and did not have much impact. Except for people stuffing V8's in them. LOL Which absolutely shredded the chassis.

Originally Posted by Corbic

Fixed it.

"We're all here" because the 240SX fell into obscurity and became worthless until people started drifting and swapping motors at the turn of the century.

Also 155hp was powerful in the land of 80-120hp 4-bangers and 205hp V8s.

The 240sx's weight was also not noteworthy back then, simply average.

A 1990 Probe was 2,730, it's V6 made 140hp as did the Turbo 4. The NA motor was 110hp.

A Celica tipped the scales at 2,447 in coupe guise with a neck snapping 103 - 130hp.

Fuck a "full size" Accord 2,730 in both Coupe and Sedan. HP was 125-140.

A 240sx was mediocre, start to finish. Power, Handling, Quality, Price, ect.

There are no poems of its driver feed back nor epics written of its thrilling tuning potential from the early 90's.

Actually again you have some facts backwards man. First off the 240sx fastback had some pretty damn good stats for an entry level Sports car in 1989. It had a drag coefficent of 032 a center of gravity of .029 and it pulled .89 on the skidpad . Which was actually quite good. To say it was mediocre in handling? Perhaps by todays standards one might say that but in the 90's that was actually quite good.
Look at the stats on a 240z or 911 or Vette from 1970 you would say they are absolutely horrible but for their day they were pretty good.

Oh and what really killed the 240sx after modest success in 89-90 was the fact that A: Nissan USA was extremely cautious about marketing it because they did not want to overshadow the Z32 and Honda brought the Acura Integra with a 170HP. Most of the young people buying new cars at the time no longer were RWD aware. They had driven their parents Honda's in the late 80's. They saw HP and bought it. Period.

Now on to the FRS/BRZ. I do like them. I think they hit the nail on the head. I think they will be road raced heavily as they should because that really defines a sports car claim to legitimacy.

This is were the Geni does not seem to be cutting it. Yes some people are drifting it. But its not being road raced or if it is its not performing because I don't hear about it. LOL
Even the 240sx had mild success in road racing here in the U.S. in its first two years. Which gave it legitimacy. Even if the general public ignored it.


For me a Sports car needs legitimacy and I do not see that with the Geni's I do see it happening with the BRZ/FRS. On there HP side 200HP is nice a starting point for a 2700 LB car. Hell Nissan did quite well in Japan with 205 HP 180sx's. I think most of you have just gotten to caught up in HP numbers.
Ignoring the overall balance and capability of the cars in question. Does it perform well with the 200HP engine? In fact it does by all reports. I will be test driving one soon so perhaps I will report back my impressions as well.
Could it use more? Possibly if the chassis is designed well enough for it.


The current generation of 240 owners got into 240's strictly because they were cheap and they could drift them.
When I got into 240sx's it was because finding a affordable RWD sports car in the late 90's was no simple task. There were not a lot out there.
Things have indeed changed since then . One often wonders for better or worse? LOL

[LoneStarSilvia]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

For me a Sports car needs legitimacy and I do not see that with the Geni's I do see it happening with the BRZ/FRS. On there HP side 200HP is nice a starting point for a 2700 LB car. Hell Nissan did quite well in Japan with 205 HP 180sx's. I think most of you have just gotten to caught up in HP numbers.
Ignoring the overall balance and capability of the cars in question. Does it perform well with the 200HP engine? In fact it does by all reports. I will be test driving one soon so perhaps I will report back my impressions as well.
Could it use more? Possibly if the chassis is designed well enough for it.

I'm glad someone else gets it. I forget how many drifters and hardparkers roam these forums.

I wish we could just hit the fast forward button 3 years and see how it's doing then or if any new challengers appeared. I am loving all the pictures popping up with them have suspension and nice wheels, damn they look good.

[MWH_Photo]

Originally Posted by simmode1

From my perspective, a driver's car like the BRZ/FRS doesn't really start to show its appeal UNLESS its on a small track. Other than that, it's like... meh.

I was really hung up over the BRZ/FRS as well but this (and a few other things) made me indifferent about the car since 99% of the driving I'd be doing is on the street.

The refreshed front end of the GC doesn't look all that bad in person, and the back end still looks amazing. I "think" they got rid of the rev hang in the manual version of the FI variant as well, which was my only gripe with the previous gen GC. I'm just narrow minded and the Hyundai badge isn't my cup of tea though =/

I plan on just trying to bump up my price range to Evo X GSR territory before they go Hybrid and if that doesn't work I'll likely give up on trying to own a "cool" car.

[DisEpyon]

Originally Posted by LoneStarSilvia

I'm glad someone else gets it. I forget how many drifters and hardparkers roam these forums.

I wish we could just hit the fast forward button 3 years and see how it's doing then or if any new challengers appeared. I am loving all the pictures popping up with them have suspension and nice wheels, damn they look good.

So you been to the future already 3 years from now and came back?

[towlie]

I think it's one of the nicest looking cars to hit the market in the last few years. I'm sure company's will produce some nice turbo/suspension parts pretty soon

[DJ-of-E]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Oh and what really killed the 240sx after modest success in 89-90 was the fact that A: Nissan USA was extremely cautious about marketing it because they did not want to overshadow the Z32 and Honda brought the Acura Integra with a 170HP. [b]Most of the young people buying new cars at the time no longer were RWD aware. They had driven their parents Honda's in the late 80's. They saw HP and bought it.[b] Period.

The current generation of 240 owners got into 240's strictly because they were cheap and they could drift them.
When I got into 240sx's it was because finding a affordable RWD sports car in the late 90's was no simple task. There were not a lot out there.
Things have indeed changed since then . One often wonders for better or worse? LOL

So fucken true for me, haha. The first car I've driven was my dad's 1982 Nissan 280zx. Took that thing to school and made high school Honda boys cry. The first car I've bought an own was a 1985 Toyota Celica GT-S. If it weren't for the rust, I'd still keep it. The fact that my dad pretty much drive nothing but RWD cars made it my priority to find a good import RWD. Fortunately, it was before "drifting" came along where every kid still buys a "Honda," it was damn easy finding a clean 240sx (or 2 within 6 months).

[simmode1]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

This is were the Geni does not seem to be cutting it. Yes some people are drifting it. But its not being road raced or if it is its not performing because I don't hear about it. LOL

Somehow, I don't think that's the car's fault. Seems to have loads of potential and capability. We've already seen it flog the 86 around a track. Hyundai just probably doesn't have even capital to finance a major racing effort with it. Nissan & Toyota had tons to RWD racing history by the time it released its 90's favorites. Give the little H some slack.

[driftracerx]

Originally Posted by Catch240

truth...

I agree that the 350z = 240sx successor...shit ton of them out there and you can get one for 10k.

or 8k in auction =)

[LoneStarSilvia]

Originally Posted by DisEpyon

So you been to the future already 3 years from now and came back?

You feel good about that? Congrats.


I'd like to see the 2013 Genesis with an aftermarket front bumper. That stock one is all that is wrong with that car. Simmode since you're the spokesperson for them now, have you noticed any trends in people picking the V6 over the L4 or vise versa?

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by towlie

I think it's one of the nicest looking cars to hit the market in the last few years. I'm sure company's will produce some nice turbo/suspension parts pretty soon

Just about all the major Japanese big names have parts for them already.

Originally Posted by simmode1

Somehow, I don't think that's the car's fault. Seems to have loads of potential and capability.

But a car isn't successful just on potential and capability alone.
Several tuners jumped on board when the Genesis was released
and most, Cobb comes to mind, pretty much put it on the shelf
since most owners appear to be cheap
no one buying 'quality' parts = no development from 'quality' tuners
sounds familiar

[Syncade]

Subaru BRZ = Miata size = small peepee