3000 people died on 9/11. we killed 100,000+ civilians in Iraq. is that okay?

[word sux]

Originally Posted by s0apgun

you just looooooove to bend words and fill your posts with neurotic fluff. when you can sit behind a keyboard and behave let me know, i'd love to continue to tell you you're wrong.

yes get the fuck out of this country you ingrate, of course our foreign policy is not perfect but you and the media make it seem like we are going out and looking for trouble. thats not the case at ALL and after 8 years in iraq i'd say it was a successful mission and hopefully further progression will occur in iraq through democratic rule. this is 2011 and there is no place for governments on this planet that rule through murder and corruption and strip its citizens of their natural rights as human beings. i believe its not our right to police the world, but our responsibility.

you probably don't agree, and i don't care.

again you have yet to make a single valid point in this thread, you might as well tell me that 2+2=3 while your at it.

seriously take my advice and pick up a book reading your posts is painful at best. your like the houdini of pulling things out of your arse.

It's funny that you are calling me an ingrate because I believe that we should stay out of other counties problems... sorry for holding up the views of the founding fathers..

you should crack open a middle school american history book... its amazing the things you will learn!!!

[word sux]

and I am still waiting for some sort of intelligent response from you

[lflkajfj12123]

[BOROSUN]

to think about it my middle school american history textbooks way back 90s is outdated and some incorrect/misinformed.

[word sux]

Originally Posted by s0apgun

not really, just amused.


and thanks for proving my point

[Banana_Cute]

Here in america, we show em who's the boss.

[word sux]

[J90lude]

The funny thing I honestly believe that our own government was behind the whole 9/11 tragedy. "smh" Sad...world.

[Brian]

How so ?

[imotion s14]

Originally Posted by s0apgun

I agree completely with this sentiment. Let me quote Ayn Rand... "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."

While there are many different belief systems, there is only one type of government that exists to protect its citizens. Totalitarian and dictatorship governments have no place in human life. We are defined by our ability to think freely and to pursue our lives however we choose. Stripping man kind of its inherent rights of existence is the worst crime any civilization could commit.

That is why I believe it is our responsibility and any other country who takes pride in freedom, to police the creation of governments that not only destroys lives of it citizens but also their ability to think and act as individuals. Even if that means being called the bullies of the world.



As ineedone said, USA has the most clout in the UN and also runs the world bank, the ones who fund the decisions of the UN. I don't believe we should set up a world police anyways it is not needed, but I do believe countries like the USA should intervene if needed on situations such as stripping the power of countries that do not grant its citizens freedom and to prevent future ones from coming into existence. Terrorism wouldn't be any kind of an issue if it weren't for governments like saddams that- don't play by the rules and support these radical groups for their own benefit.




I understand what you're getting at but more or less you are bending words there. We were founded as republic when that was what important for our nation at the time as it was heavily split by faction, it is now unimportant to call it that and our government today exists as a democratic republic, the government of the say of the people. Whatever the terminology, in the modern world most governments even with a king or royal blood line behave mostly as a democratic rule where the peoples voice is heard.

I also agree America did some pretty shitty things in the way past and sometimes goes without notice. We murdered lots of people and behaved as criminals of the world. However, thats not how this country exists today. It's like saying we should condemn germany now for at a time being ruled by the nazi party. We have had our moments to say the least. Still doesn't stop me from saying that today this is the best country on earth.

New world philosophy: Democracy grows out the barrel of a gun.

[kingkilburn]

Without having read the thread I would ponder a question(fully knowing the answer myself).

How did Saddam come to power in the first place?


Much like the rest of our 20th century history, a lot of bloodshed could have been prevented if America had let well enough alone. Any reason for 9/11 could have been prevented if America had not backed a crazed sociopath.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Well, like stated, no way in hell the US is single handedly responsible for 100k Iraqi deaths. That looks more like the total death count during the whole time we were there, not necessarily had anything to do with us. Sectarian violence between the Sunni and Shiite's, which is what were all waiting to watch blow the fuck up after we completely pull out at the end of the month. If you guys think the Iraqi Violence that's shown in the news is bad, it's about to get worst since the extremist are just waiting till the end of the month.

The shitty part, nobody will really know how bad the it will be. Once we pull out of there, media would care less what's going on that side of the world. Doubt itll get as much coverage as the last 8 yrs.

[illvialuver]

I ont think it is right. I think it is all perspective. Like we are against terror, but other countries see our acts of war as acts of terror.

[word sux]

We are the biggest terror state on the planet.. fact


(by definition)

[kingkilburn]

We do pay the CIA to go around fucking peoples' shit up don't we.

[Sergio180sx]

Originally Posted by word sux

We are the biggest terror state on the planet.. fact


(by definition)

(Fact)= If your not first, your last..... (Ricky Bobby)hahahaha

[Kingbaby]

We (America) are doing what we have to seeing we have it better than others, along with being greedy.

If we were to close our borders seriously, how in-humane would that be?

I could care less of that 100,000 people cause they weren't killed in the name of 'HATE' or for 100 virgins. Now when I say that I've seen a few of them, and I'm ok with it overall. The money/greed side of America is the side we must be ashamed of mostly and not what we stand for. Calling America a threat/bully/overdoing is small minded!

in short

America

Fuck Yea!

[word sux]

Originally Posted by Kingbaby

We (America) are doing what we have to seeing we have it better than others, along with being greedy.

If we were to close our borders seriously, how in-humane would that be?

I could care less of that 100,000 people cause they weren't killed in the name of 'HATE' or for 100 virgins. Now when I say that I've seen a few of them, and I'm ok with it overall. The money/greed side of America is the side we must be ashamed of mostly and not what we stand for. Calling America a threat/bully/overdoing is small minded!

in short

America

Fuck Yea!

wait... what?


was that english, or was that typed in moron?

[kingkilburn]

America thinks it is doing what it must for security.

[holemilk00]

Its really hard to read all this, there is so much media influence in just about every post in this thread. The best thing I've read in here is the comment about us not knowing the full story of whats behind the curtain. Everyone is only talking about the conflicts were involved in that make the news, do none of you realize the other places around the world that we have been in for decades doing basically the same mission as Iraq and Afghanistan? Do some research on whats going on in Djibouti Africa, or better yet since I'm probably 10 years older than most of you making the "were not the world police" argument, look up what happened in Kosovo and our reluctant involvement in that area through the UN. We were basically pulled into that situation through our UN alliances. SMH

[kingkilburn]

My mom was in Hungry for a year for the Bosnian peace keeping. We still have people over there. People are still dieing over there and it gets no coverage from any media source.

[Kingbaby]

Originally Posted by word sux

wait... what?


was that english, or was that typed in moron?

Re read it! Stop being the grammar police...

Sometimes I write/type like I speak sorry, I'll try and be correct this time. America as a great power has to do the things they do despite the reason. That meaning what ever reason we are fighting these wars if they weren't being fought many more people would be dead. I've been deployed to most of these places and I can tell you first hand that the humanitarian effort US puts forward is greatly appreciate and can be seen. Along with that as if been mostly see as being a world police but if America isn't around to help, they'd be more holes in the planet.

Hopefully you can get pass my grammar and comprehend that!

[HalveBlue]

That 100,000 is an estimate. I've seen estimates range from 50,000 to close to a million, depending on study.

In several of these studies, especially the ones dealing with the higher end of the estimates, the majority of those casualties are attributed to infrastructural deficiencies like lack of fresh water and electricity, or lack of medicine.

This is actually the result of the Iran-Iraq war in the 80's, which did tremendous damage to Iraq's infrastructure.

The problem was compounded by the post Desert Storm embargoes and sanctions that were put in place against Iraq by the UN, which throttled Iraq’s primary source of income (oil) and limited what supplies and machinery Iraq could import; a lot of construction equipment and machinery required to effectively repair the damage done to the roads, refineries, and ports of Iraq were considered dual-purpose and were thus banned from importation into Iraq.

When the US invaded Iraq in 2003, Iraqi infrastructure had suffered from 20 years of destruction and neglect already, the fragile supply network that did exist suffered severe disruption. Even in modern times, disease and injury cause more casualties than actual warfare. This holds true for civilians as well as Soldiers.

Shortly after President Bush's infamous "major combat operations in Iraq have ended." speech, the vacuum created by the Coalition's destruction of Saddam's state apparatus quickly allowed internal divisions in Iraqi society to erupt into violence.

Iraqi civilian casualties aren't necessarily categorized by whom or what killed that person. Most of the time the cause and perpetrator are listed as unknown.

This ethnic violence is usually considered to account for the majority of Iraqi civilian casualties, and it continues to this day.

Actual collateral damage, that is civilian casualties inflicted by US and Coalition forces, would be on the lower end of the spectrum. But, again, this number is difficult to calculate. All in all, collateral damage caused by US and Coalition forces probably ranges between 5,000 and 30,000.

All that having been said, I’m not trying to downplay the tragedy that is Iraq. In the end, it was an unnecessary war that created a lot of death, destruction, and suffering. In fact, the war in Iraq is one of the biggest blunders in the history of American foreign policy.

But to hold the US accountable for all the misery that’s occurring in Iraq is naïve and trying to simplify a very complex situation.

[h2v7]

3000 people killed in 911
4500 people killed daily with abortions

[kingkilburn]

And that has any bearing on this discussion how?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by BustedS13

putting aside the "fuck em all die sand people die" mentality for a minute, is it acceptable for us to do 30 or more 9/11s on a country? if somebody pulled that shit here the rest of the planet would be glass.

edit: they're not directly related, but they're KINDA RELATED.

As already mentioned, most of those deaths have been caused by insurgents, terrorists, in fighting and suicide bombings - ever watch the news "35 killed today in a mosque bombing".

The US has been in Iraq so long not because we have been fighting "Iraq" but because once Saddam collapsed, all the various factions who have a long standing hatred for one another (religion, politics, ethnics, history) decided they wanted to kill one another. Not to mention Iran is one instigating asshole.

We have been trying to help them get their shit together, establish security and control.


Now how about this "is that okay"

Japan killed 57 US Civilians on Pearl Harbor...

We Killed nearly 1 million Japanese Civilians on top of the 2 million Japanese soldiers we killed.


Total US Civilian Deaths was only 1,700 - we also help killed 3 million German Civilians.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by illvialuver

I ont think it is right. I think it is all perspective. Like we are against terror, but other countries see our acts of war as acts of terror.

Exactly.

If we did nothing, the world would think we are pussies and just keep acting up.

We do something, we're assholes and their all pissed off.


You can't win.

[kingkilburn]

Isn't it nice that we bring the war to our enemy's doorstep rather than our own?

[brahim213]

once I saw the thread title I knew it was going be wild in here

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Without having read the thread I would ponder a question(fully knowing the answer myself).

How did Saddam come to power in the first place?


Much like the rest of our 20th century history, a lot of bloodshed could have been prevented if America had let well enough alone. Any reason for 9/11 could have been prevented if America had not backed a crazed sociopath.

Gigga what?

Saddam was in power long before we backed him against the fanatic Iranians.

We'll pick an authoritarian dictator who likes money over fanatic suicidal religious zelots any day!!


9/11 happend for many reasons.


The Failed Attempt of Secular terrorists to overthrow Israel. Originally groups like Black September would take hostages and make demands - Counter Terrorist groups began to crop up in the 60's - now they just killed your ass.

With these political based groups failing, religious ones filled the void. The Saudis encouraged fundamental Isalm to offset blame for their internal issues and stay in power. Iran is currently doing this - "its the US and the Jews fault life sucks, not ours."

Russia invades Afghanistan on behalf of the legitimate Afghan Government. Russia tries to "modernize" them - educate boys and girls, equal rights, you know things that don't sit well with fundamental Islamics. Jihad is declared and Jimmy Carter's plan to get back at Russia for Vietnam kicks into full swing.

We give money to Pakistan - who then gives it to terrorists, we give "freedom fighters" stinger missiles and training. Russia says "fuck it" levels the country, kills a few million and leaves. Afghanistan is in a civil war for the next 20 years between waring factions.

Iraq invades Kuit because Saddam is pissed no one is helping him pay his bills after his 11 year war with Iran. The Oil Countries are drowning in oil and won't cut him some slack. The US says "whatever you do, just make it quick because we can't have an oil crisis". He miss understood us.

Saudi Arabia is scared shitless, Saddam is trying to get his Arab brothers to back him by launching scuds at Israel.

Osama Binladin, returns from Afghanistan, a Saudi Prince, he was the hero who with his Muhadin throw out the Russians, now he wants to help the Saudi's throw out the Iraqis. Realizing if he brought his Army to Saudi Arabia, they would overthrow the King and take the country to the next level the Saudis say "Piss off, America Save Us".

We do - and Osama is forever pissed and trying to get even with us.

Over the past 30 Years the US also failed to address dozens of terrorist attacks. We treated them as "police matters".

World Trade Center truck bombing, Marine Barracks, Embassy Bombings, Yeman Embassy attack, the USS Cole, not to mention hundreds of bombings and attacks in Russia and Yugoslavia. - All Islamic Terrorist driven, and all tied into a greater terrorist network.

WE IGNORE IT ALL. Times were good and cared more about who Bill Clinton was porking and whether or not Janet Reno was a man and just who dangerous the Religious Right was. (Waco).

9/11 happens, OMG there are terrorist out there?!?! They don't like us?!?! Who is O-sama Bin-la-den? Is he that new handsome black senator from Chicago?

The rest is history.

Iran is out of control because we bumped off the their "counter balance", Saddam. He was trying to develop nukes, but unfortunately he was doing it to nuke Iran, not the US or Israel.

Should we have invaded Iraq? No - but Saddam was a familiar name and we wanted to kick ass and get even cause of 9/11.


Lastly - the only good thing about the Middle East anymore... IDF Girls.