Are there no new hotboi wheel brands sub 2k anymore?

[AKADriver]

Would it seriously kill anyone who works at these wheel companies to go into their cad program and set the damn bolt pattern to 4x114.3? It's one less machining step, you bastards should be thanking me for streamlining your process

The worst are wheels like Enkei RPF1 where they clearly have a 4 lug casting and a 5 lug casting in each size and offset and they make a 4x100 in like 3 different offsets but 4x114.3 in only +45... WHO IS BUYING THAT? I know the Miata guys are buying the 4x100 low/med disk but are there that many more dudes with old Accords and Lancers who need the 4x114 high disk than the S13/kyusha/etc/market? I know that was a thing 20 years ago when '90s era Hondas drove the import wheel market but nowadays?

Funny thing is all the Hondas I see from that era are running on ET0 XXR/Drag/etc. with massive poke and stretch

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

Would it seriously kill anyone who works at these wheel companies to go into their cad program and set the damn bolt pattern to 4x114.3? It's one less machining step, you bastards should be thanking me for streamlining your process

The worst are wheels like Enkei RPF1 where they clearly have a 4 lug casting and a 5 lug casting in each size and offset and they make a 4x100 in like 3 different offsets but 4x114.3 in only +45... WHO IS BUYING THAT? I know the Miata guys are buying the 4x100 low/med disk but are there that many more dudes with old Accords and Lancers who need the 4x114 high disk than the S13/kyusha/etc/market? I know that was a thing 20 years ago when '90s era Hondas drove the import wheel market but nowadays?

Funny thing is all the Hondas I see from that era are running on ET0 XXR/Drag/etc. with massive poke and stretch

Keep in mind that the wheel makers with the lowest or most mature cost process often sell worldwide. It's how they are able to continue producing wheels that otherwise would have already died.

A "+45 4x114.3mm" wheel makes zero sense in the US... but only if you are thinking the wheels are only for the US... plenty of other 4x114.3mm cars out on the market that need high offset.

A simple search yields tons of small passenger cars in other markets that have zero value in the US.

[tuzzio]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

where they clearly have a 4 lug casting and a 5 lug casting in each size and offset

The "problem" here is that the lug holes are likely cast into the center core, and they are finish machined at a later date. I understand however, this would really just require them to pay for a new or modified core box. However, you also have to remember that core box is likely different for every size/ spoke design, and that gets expensive quick.

[AKADriver]

Originally Posted by tuzzio

The "problem" here is that the lug holes are likely cast into the center core, and they are finish machined at a later date. I understand however, this would really just require them to pay for a new or modified core box. However, you also have to remember that core box is likely different for every size/ spoke design, and that gets expensive quick.

For some wheels for sure, especially when the spokes extend all the way to the center. For others like the RPF1 where the center is just a 'dish' I think they really just have 4 and 5 lug castings. And plenty of inexpensive wheels just have a single casting for each size, which you can tell since the mounting surface face is just flat all the way across with no cast-in reliefs between the lugs.

But yeah. I've seen some horrible Volk CE28N reps where they clearly took a mold from a real 5x114.3 CE28N and then redrilled it to whatever, but there are cast-in flats where the 5x114.3 lug holes would've been. Embarrassing:

Originally Posted by mav1178

Keep in mind that the wheel makers with the lowest or most mature cost process often sell worldwide.

Sure, lots of southeast Asia market Mitsubishi-based or kei car based stuff, which is where a lot of these budget wheels are made (Thailand, PH, Malaysia)

A lot of it is also down to the Japanese companies dropping stuff that would mostly fit stock S13s, FCs, and other basically deprecated old cars. The fact that UP Garages routinely sell the typical 16" S13 fitment wheel sets for less than 20k yen tells me no one there is buying them anymore. Enkei used to have part numbers for 16x7 and 16x8 ET30 4x114.3 RPF1s but it no longer exists.

For me it's just not economical to spend $500 converting my car to 5 lug to buy a set of <$1000 wheels.

[tuzzio]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

For some wheels for sure, especially when the spokes extend all the way to the center. For others like the RPF1 where the center is just a 'dish' I think they really just have 4 and 5 lug castings. And plenty of inexpensive wheels just have a single casting for each size, which you can tell since the mounting surface face is just flat all the way across with no cast-in reliefs between the lugs.

I'd be curious what the tooling really looks like. Unfortunately, every width and offset likely requires a separate set of tools since this will dictate the shape of the face, distances, etc. Same with the hub bore, etc. I work in a foundry, and honestly even some very simple castings require a ton of core work.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

For me it's just not economical to spend $500 converting my car to 5 lug to buy a set of <$1000 wheels.

And for the manufacturers it is just not economical to make a small batch of wheels in a specific lug pattern.

Very few consumers understand how massive tooling costs are, and it is not just changing a design parameter on a CAD rendering. Before with 5Zigen, the factory making FN01R-Cs wanted upwards of $10k each variation of spoke design or backpad, so we would save money by just making a generic 17" flat spoke face, have 2 variations for backpad that can be used for both 4 and 5 lug bolt patterns, and either add material to the backpad for lower offset or just drill different bolt patterns as long as it didn't compromise the wheel strength.

Beyond that, there's also MOQ requirements, factories will not waste their time unless you order sufficient quantities or dollar amounts for wheels. At the end of the day high offset 414 wheels are not meant for this chassis, just leave it at that.

[tuzzio]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Very few consumers understand how massive tooling costs are.

This. But, its also not exactly common knowledge. You're talking about having a cope/drag (Top/bottom) set of tools, and any set of tools for cores as well. And it gets expensive quick. Especially since a lot of the stuff used to be made out of wood in pattern shops. The future is looking wild as they have 3D Sand printers now..but again, thats a million dollar machine to start.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by tuzzio

But, its also not exactly common knowledge.

It's not, but too many people think along the lines of a single transaction and don't look at it from the perspective of the seller, the distributor, the importer, or the manufacturer. All 4 can be separate companies, or all 4 can be the same.

Beyond that, people think in a timeline that is about as long as it takes for them to pay the bill.

Most manufacturers think in terms of years, and the costs associated with tooling + logistics (a catch-all for things like packaging, boxing, shipping to different countries, etc) add up very quick. Then you add things like a fluctuating exchange rate and it makes things very difficult from a planning perspective.

Case in point: the yen is trading at a 10-year low of close to 130JPY to 1USD. While this is great for US consumers, it also greatly affects how products are priced when trying to import into the Japanese market. This is against a backdrop of the yen being 30% stronger just last January.

Try pricing things out with a 30% swing in your cost structure in 12 months... it's so much more than just tooling, and most manufacturers of product think about 3-5 year horizons at a minimum to sell products.

[AKADriver]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Beyond that, there's also MOQ requirements, factories will not waste their time unless you order sufficient quantities or dollar amounts for wheels. At the end of the day high offset 414 wheels are not meant for this chassis, just leave it at that.

Right. It just seems like, given all these lead times ad so on, they just ended up missing the trend of our cars coming back in style/people spending a lot of money on them and both owners and wheel manufacturers lose. I can make stuff work... but I think of the reddit r/240SX crowd that just wants to go on a website and click 'buy' and get wheels that fit. Can't do that if you have a 4 lug car.

[Future240]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

I think of the reddit r/240SX crowd that just wants to go on a website and click 'buy' and get wheels that fit. Can't do that if you have a 4 lug car.

I get that but if one is willing to drop that kind of cash on wheels a 5 lug swap does not seem like it would be that big of a deal.

[tuzzio]

Originally Posted by Future240

I get that but if one is willing to drop that kind of cash on wheels a 5 lug swap does not seem like it would be that big of a deal.

Have you ever spent time on that subreddit? Because this simple logic would blow their minds.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by Future240

I get that but if one is willing to drop that kind of cash on wheels a 5 lug swap does not seem like it would be that big of a deal.

No shit.

There is zero reason to keep a 240sx 4-lug. 5 lug opens the door to a billion wheel options and then matching commonality with just about every other desirable car you may own or one day own.

5x114.3 is king and if I owned a GT86, I'd be swapping that shit as well.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

Right. It just seems like, given all these lead times ad so on, they just ended up missing the trend of our cars?

No one is missing anything.

The market for S-chassis has been shrinking since 2002. The trend is for this market to get saturated with parts and slowly die out.

That?s what you?re missing, you keep thinking it?s some revival when it?s just a bunch of old cars getting regurgitated because the pricing for mint chassis is skyrocketing.

Find me a dozen guys willing to buy decent 4 lug wheels. Then find me the next dozen. The first few are easy to find, the rest are impossible.

Everyone wanted me to get more metal Silvia fenders, but for me to produce it at a low price point of under $1000 a pair, I would have needed to find 500 buyers. Yeah, that?s pretty much a waste of my time.

[tuzzio]

Originally Posted by mav1178

I would have needed to find 500 buyers. Yeah, that's pretty much a waste of my time.

And everyone who's ever done some sort of group buy knows that you're lucky to get half of the buyers who actually commit.

[Thursday7]

Originally Posted by mav1178

The market for S-chassis has been shrinking since 2002.

Lol what?

It's obviously shrinking nowadays but these shits peaked in like 2012.

[xschylerx]

Originally Posted by AKADriver

Would it seriously kill anyone who works at these wheel companies to go into their cad program and set the damn bolt pattern to 4x114.3? It's one less machining step, you bastards should be thanking me for streamlining your process

I think another (or perhaps a big one, idk I'm just some dumbass on the internet) is that how many cars are being made nowdays in 4x114 that would also require a low offset?? and when most guys in our area swap to 5 lug that's a whole second market that gets taken out, from a business standpoint its just not worth it to carry something that will sit on the shelf for years before someone buys it.

I agree, I wish there were more new options for us 4 lug boys, I just don't see it happening anytime soon. (I've been wrong before) until then ill stick with my used 1200 big boy works and some long champs and call er a day