pick up a few more tenths in the ka

[kompressorlogic]

either way a small MAF is a choke point, why do u think people go to stand alones wiht a MAP sensor?? to get rid of a air flow meter.... cause its a restriction....

hey vinnie earlyer you were mentioning the stock ecu runs very near stoich stock?? that doesnt seem to make much sense to me

car manfactures allways tune cars stock overly rich and with milder timing to ensure the engine lasts a long time so idiots cant blow it up......

i mean if your selling a car to the masses wouldnt u want to tune it with quite a WIDE safty margin to insure users cant blow engines under warentee with small modifications or minor errors??



( yeah id say tre running that lean is kind of dancing with the devil but its allways a trade off of power VS safty)

do you have any data logging of the stock ecu to prove it runs that close to stoich?? id like to at least see a stock ECU data log A/F graph of like a 4th gear pull or somethin

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by tre

A: you suck a tuning
B: you suck at driving

You fail to comprehend and you suck at life. My car is a daily driver running a 15.3. You my friend have de-tuned your ride to run much too lean and to shorten the life of your engine. I myself could of done that as well as anyone else. Tuning properly is to have a vehicle that runs stoich not lean. It isn't impressive. Proper tuning is impressive and is gauranteed that my engine will outsurpass yours. Without shifting cams I will hit a 15flat or better, that my friend is tuning.
Looking at a distributor that is fully advanced isn't genius by anymeans and you only further the chances of detonation and knock on a long stroke engine, especially using the stock ecu tune with an SAFC. You haven't changed your maps it is still stock, you just change pulse width..It's not smart...
Have fun with it while you can it won't last long, and it isn't streetable.
Also when I hear shit like>>>

Originally Posted by tre

Maybe retard the cams a bit more. (IF i can accomplish the revs to 8k)

You defenitely don't know what the fuck your talking about since the bottom end doesn't accept rev well having a half weighted crank....Why you want to rev past 7000RPM baffles the fuck out of me....

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by kompressorlogic

car manfactures allways tune cars stock overly rich and with milder timing to ensure the engine lasts a long time so idiots cant blow it up......

i mean if your selling a car to the masses wouldnt u want to tune it with quite a WIDE safty margin to insure users cant blow engines under warentee with small modifications or minor errors??



( yeah id say tre running that lean is kind of dancing with the devil but its allways a trade off of power VS safty)

do you have any data logging of the stock ecu to prove it runs that close to stoich?? id like to at least see a stock ECU data log A/F graph of like a 4th gear pull or somethin

Yes this is true. The Nissan tune is infact enriched by about 7% of fuel over air in it's ratio in early rpm's. But when you bolt on a filter and a CAT back it increases the mixture to stoich at about 4000RPM and on. Then when performance headers are added it further increases to a leaner ratio since the EGR system doesn't consume as much hot exhaust gas. It doesn't take a lot of modification for the KA to run lean. The ratio runs at a decent 12 F/A ratio. The tune runs really rich from 1200RPM on to about 3500RPM I have some dyno graphs with some data log enties let me look around for a bit and repost. Probably get back to it after dinner.
On another note the MAF isn't directly the problem with KA24de's, the fact that it isn't set up for wideband o2 is.....

[oneslows14]

Whats up BIG V its JEff the one you bought the throttle body a long tiem in cali Riverside..
Just wanted to say whats up..
Since then i bought 4 more 240sx... well 1 real rhd silvia.. Im in drifting and its killer. Finishing up a track car sr20det its almost done youll see an article on it.. 400+ hp and 350+ to wheels.. HIt me up some time ill take you for a ride...lol
jeff

[BigVinnie]

Jeff P.M me with the info...

[kompressorlogic]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Tuning properly is to have a vehicle that runs stoich not lean. It isn't impressive. Proper tuning is impressive and is gauranteed that my engine will outsurpass yours.

tres tune prolly is dangerous....

but in reality tuning to stoich like u say quite dangerous also.... stoich is 14.7:1 and that is too lean for modern compression ratios and timing curves.... so either you have a wide definition of stoich or somethin??...

once again id love to see some data logs of your A/F's ( seriously, not tring to clown, id like to see some competitive tunes) also tre id like to see you use the wide band and see what your AF really are...

so the only way u would have a safe tune at stoich would to have a very very modest timing curve.....

id imagine a safe A/F with a decently advanced timing curve would tune around 13.5:1-13.9:1 and have decent power....

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Have fun with it while you can it won't last long, and it isn't streetable

thats funny i see tre driving around all the time??sure looks street able to me

[tre]

You cleary have NO idea wtf is going on in national SCCA after they let the KA24DE into racing. They see 8k daily and have no problem with bottom end.

Bottom end problem ONLY exhists in the SOHC.

I get all my tuning advice from two people who've raced for longer than you've been able to drive. One of them being a KA24DE racer.

My daily driver is the 14.9 And i belive its possible to hit 14.6 with that car. And if it is "de-tuned" why is it faster than yours?

Remember that was my FIRST time at the drag strip. and i hit a 14.9 vs a lot of people's first times hitting 15.6's. A locked diff, wider tires/better induction (not sucking hot header air).

Plus the "stoich" mention. If your car is not perfectly tuned for it. You probalby will have detonation. So far i have no detonation... hmm figure that.

And changine the "width" of the pulse IS changing your fuel map. Less fuel is still less fuel.

I like how your bashing changed from 14.9 impossible, to anyone else can do it with the right tuning.

Oh yeah. I put on average 2000-3000 miles on my car a month.

Back to the point:
A: You suck at tuning
B: You suck at driving
C: All of the above

Remember I have accomplished it. You haven't. And no one else on this board has either. Look at the other times people post up. Everyone's hitting 15.6's.

What do you use to tune?

[kompressorlogic]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Yes this is true. The Nissan tune is infact enriched by about 7% of fuel over air in it's ratio in early rpm's. But when you bolt on a filter and a CAT back it increases the mixture to stoich at about 4000RPM and on. Then when performance headers are added it further increases to a leaner ratio since the EGR system doesn't consume as much hot exhaust gas. It doesn't take a lot of modification for the KA to run lean. The ratio runs at a decent 12 F/A ratio. The tune runs really rich from 1200RPM on to about 3500RPM I have some dyno graphs with some data log enties let me look around for a bit and repost. Probably get back to it after dinner.
On another note the MAF isn't directly the problem with KA24de's, the fact that it isn't set up for wideband o2 is.....

now we are getting some useful information.. i like this post alot better then the LIAR LIAR BASH TRE posts....

now i dont see how the A/F would change much with an ehxuast and intake...

The primary load sensing device on the 240 the air flow meter correct?? air flow meters should be able to fairly acuratly take into acount the added air from a free flowing ehxuast, unless its maxing out duty cycle of the injectors which i dont think just an exhuat and intake can do that??

(

[kompressorlogic]

hers something to think about Vinnie

i know tre and ive rode in his car plenty of times, car runs great and pulls nicly and doesnt seem to detect any knock on the SAFC II,and ive never heard any audiable detonation... with that -11% threw out upperband....

that even does seem a lil lean to me as well but...

what if we think about what the SAFC is actually doing.

the safc is suposed to take the input signal from the air flow and modify it to give it a lower reading so it tricks the ecu...

now since this device is mostly universal, i dont see how it can accuratly remove the same amount of fuel in all different cars. This means that the 11% number might actually be Arbitary... a 1% decrese on the safc might not be a 1% decrease in fuel in reality it could vary ( as with most universal electroincs)

since the number may be arbitrary or off scale, the only way to really know how much fuel was actually taken out is for tre to do some wide band logging, then we can conclude how much fuel was actually removed with this -11%...

for instance at about 5800 rpm on my rx-7 when i pulled 7% fuel on my SAFC on my 2nd gen rx-7 turbo II, my air fuel rose from a 11.4 up to a 11.9:1

so what im saying now is I dont think these SAFC %+/-are accurate, his -11% could in reality be less, thus explaining why his car isnt detonating and xploding yet lol....

so it could be posible that his "blind" tune might actually be on par.

(now when he origionally got it i told him he could prolly get away with about -5% percent,as in most cars thats what u can get away with, just like how u explained that overly rich in the mid range rpm, but then he did the higher percent on his own)

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by tre

What do you use to tune?

HAHA funny you ask. About a year ago I was fucking around with an SAFC with only marginal power gains up to about 5HP probably at the most. Since then I have it sitting in my room. I'm on to bigger things like BIKIrom. Which NemeGuero of this forum and I are slowly going through the programming trying to devise a proper tune. His friend Bill set up the MAPS, that I will eventually take a look at. He runs a FI I am running NA. Right now I'm looking for a FED OBD1, seems to be somecomplications using a CALI ecu and throwing codes 32. So once that is in I'm good to go and tune as many times as needed.

Originally Posted by tre

You cleary have NO idea wtf is going on in national SCCA after they let the KA24DE into racing. They see 8k daily and have no problem with bottom end.

Actually I DO!!! Rebello racing is down the street from me. I'll take there advice over yours or any body elses in the SCCA anyday buddy...
No it won't even come close to 7000RPM without wanting to fall apart. You need a knife edge crank and scrapper just to break up the resistance on that piece of shit half weighted crank.

Originally Posted by kompressorlogic

tres tune prolly is dangerous....

so the only way u would have a safe tune at stoich would to have a very very modest timing curve.....

id imagine a safe A/F with a decently advanced timing curve would tune around 13.5:1-13.9:1 and have decent power....

Bingo....Atleast Tre has smart friends. At the rate that his timing is advanced I'm surprised that he doesn't have rod knock yet. Also retarding the intake cam only further increases leaness, as well as setting the pulse width back on the SAFC. I'm being an ASSHOLE because common knowledge knows that it isn't that smart to increase leaness, although achieving power.

Originally Posted by kompressorlogic

but in reality tuning to stoich like u say quite dangerous also.... stoich is 14.7:1 and that is too lean for modern compression ratios and timing curves.... so either you have a wide definition of stoich, or you could be lieng out your ass? i dont know...

Uhhh no it's not stock compression on the KA is 9.5:1 stoich is pretty safe. As long as it stays between 14 and 12 there shouldn't be any serious complications. especially since the knock sensor has a little bit of play in retarding the ignition timing, but then again we are talking aboput very little timing discrepencies....
Dropping below 12 is wayyy to lean.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by kompressorlogic

hers something to think about Vinnie

i know tre and ive rode in his car plenty of times, car runs great and pulls nicly and doesnt seem to detect any knock on the SAFC II,and ive never heard any audiable detonation... with that -11% threw out upperband....

that even does seem a lil lean to me as well but...

what if we think about what the SAFC is actually doing.

the safc is suposed to take the input signal from the air flow and modify it to give it a lower reading so it tricks the ecu...

now since this device is mostly universal, i dont see how it can accuratly remove the same amount of fuel in all different cars. This means that the 11% number might actually be Arbitary... a 1% decrese on the safc might not be a 1% decrease in fuel in reality it could vary ( as with most universal electroincs)

since the number may be arbitrary or off scale, the only way to really know how much fuel was actually taken out is for tre to do some wide band logging, then we can conclude how much fuel was actually removed with this -11%...

for instance at about 5800 rpm on my rx-7 when i pulled 7% fuel on my SAFC on my 2nd gen rx-7 turbo II, my air fuel rose from a 11.4 up to a 11.9:1

so what im saying now is I dont think these SAFC %+/-are accurate, his -11% could in reality be less, thus explaining why his car isnt detonating and xploding yet lol....

so it could be posible that his "blind" tune might actually be on par.

(now when he origionally got it i told him he could prolly get away with about -5% percent,as in most cars thats what u can get away with, just like how u explained that overly rich in the mid range rpm, but then he did the higher percent on his own)

Well not to bash Tre anymore but you seem to know your shit and present yourself well. I wish Tre could of done the same.....

[ryan hagen]

my redline on the tach seems to be 8k on mine, jwt said my tune was a 7k rev limiter, before the turbo the 7k looked like 7200, i don tknow where the other 800 rpm of crappy tach came from. but aceinhole i think was his name runs with a hacked maf and safc and is turbo and runs well into the 8k range if i remember right.

[tre]

Thats really funny my dad's friend dyno'd his KA with ALL OEM Parts at 289crank hp and 249crank torque and it ran through out the season fine no problems whatsoever. Still hasn't blow up yet and it revs to 8 all day long.

Oh and find out why the SCCA KA24DE guys only upgrade the intake came

Pushing power band back furthe ropens up for more breathing, causing less lean. The longer its open the more fuel/air goes in.

Anyways i'm looking into BIKIrom. I dont know if it has full control of rev limit (ignition cut or fuel cut). I know it has fuel/timing control. I'm still debating. And still debating on going with teh STS system.

Oh yeah the 7k only redline is bs. I haven't seen one event where I dont bounce of rev limiter. Even just doing a burn out at the drag i probably bounce off it at least 5 times before i let go. And at drift event. I dont belive i go below 6500 most the time.

BTW I represent what I know, and have seen done, and done myself. Its not my fault his new engine ONLY put out 325crank hp and 250crank tq.

At first you said 14.9 was impossible with my tune, and the JWT cams are impossible to reach that retard.
Then you went to anyone can do a 14.9 with the right tune. When you've only done a 15.3. My very first run ever was a 15.21.

Like i said with some more tuning. I can easily drop it to 14.6. Especiallyw ith a locked diff instead of a 240kmile vlsd. Venting the engine bay, repositioning the intake and opening up the choke point. And a good set of Wider tires.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by ryan hagen

my redline on the tach seems to be 8k on mine, jwt said my tune was a 7k rev limiter, before the turbo the 7k looked like 7200, i don tknow where the other 800 rpm of crappy tach came from. but aceinhole i think was his name runs with a hacked maf and safc and is turbo and runs well into the 8k range if i remember right.

It just sounds stupid too tach that high, harmonics on the KA crank fall apart after 6000RPM, and a sever drop in the power band. I have yet to see a dyno with a KA that will make PEAK POWER past 6900RPM. Really it was the whole point why NISMO developed a whole new fully counterweighed bottom end for $8000.00

[tre]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

It just sounds stupid too tach that high, harmonics on the KA crank fall apart after 6000RPM, and a sever drop in the power band. I have yet to see a dyno with a KA that will make PEAK POWER past 6900RPM. Really it was the whole point why NISMO developed a whole new fully counterweighed bottom end for $8000.00

I've still been qouted by someone's who has raced ka's and built MANY 240sx tube fram chasis cars. A KA can see 8k every day if it wants.

He had cams in his that pissed him off. For the sheer fact the track made him set his rev limiter (this is all oem parts) at 8k. He said i qoute "the power really started kicking in at 7000rpm, then all of a sudden rev limiter"

IF i were to name drop him. He MAY get pissed if I do. I'm sure you're friend would know him.

[ryan hagen]

my car revs awsome, i had the fly wheel lightened and balanced and i havnt ran it much but its smoother than my oem motor in my second car.

the nismo brush run truck have well over 10k into their motors and they only have 275-350 hp depending on the track and race. your dads friend must have alot of cash into it.

i highly doubt you can make that kind of power out of a ka with oem parts, oem as in you can get them from the dealership. the highest hp n/a ka's i have ever heard of are in those trucks and they do alot of crazy very not oem things to them so they last. and i thought earlier you said you ran the first run of 14.9 then you just said it was 15 something,

i believe you on the rev part, but not the power of those motors.

[tre]

I said my best run was a 14.9 and i bet i can dip it to mid 14s my very first run was a 15.21.

Actually we did all the mathmatics. Grinding valve reliefs into the 3valve pistons and putting them in. Puts you right at 11.9 to 1 compression. With reground cams, port and polished head. ALL OEM bottom end. He Crank dynoed at 289hp and 249tq.

All i'll say is he knows the Nissan Comp guys by name. And a picture of his track vehicle is hanging in their office.

He watched a video of the KA in those trucks. He said his jaw dropped when he never saw the shift light (10k) go off.

[ryan hagen]

yah the trucks are sick, at crandon we hung out in their pits they were drunk and let us check stuff out more than normal, not stock in any way. the sohc piston swap is supsosed to be 11.1:1, i have some in .020 over, you dont need to touch them unless you run a nasty cam, oem cams the vlaves dont hit, i built a n/a motor for my 2nd 240, i ahve one turbo and one n/a, didnt put the motor in the n/a yet cause i m waiting to build a better head than the stock one i was going to use.

Originally Posted by tre

I said my best run was a 14.9 and i bet i can dip it to mid 14s my very first run was a 15.21.

Actually we did all the mathmatics. Grinding valve reliefs into the 3valve pistons and putting them in. Puts you right at 11.9 to 1 compression. With reground cams, port and polished head. ALL OEM bottom end. He Crank dynoed at 289hp and 249tq.

All i'll say is he knows the Nissan Comp guys by name. And a picture of his track vehicle is hanging in their office.

He watched a video of the KA in those trucks. He said his jaw dropped when he never saw the shift light (10k) go off.

[tre]

well we figured it was 11.9 with the ones he had. We're goign to grind valve reliefs. And mill it down. I plan on running an extremely HOT intake cam. As he suggest VIA SCCA GT3 racers use. He gave me all the specs they use too.

I have a plan to port and polish the head. And in the longer run. Go Full stand alone with ITB's.

And through research it shows longer velocity stacks produce more HP top end wise. This may be only with an alcohol engine application. But thats what it showed for him. He ran shorter velocity stacks then longer ones. And produced more power.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by tre

Anyways i'm looking into BIKIrom. I dont know if it has full control of rev limit (ignition cut or fuel cut). I know it has fuel/timing control. I'm still debating. And still debating on going with teh STS system.

BTW I represent what I know, and have seen done, and done myself. Its not my fault his new engine ONLY put out 325crank hp and 250crank tq.

At first you said 14.9 was impossible with my tune, and the JWT cams are impossible to reach that retard.
Then you went to anyone can do a 14.9 with the right tune. When you've only done a 15.3. My very first run ever was a 15.21.

Well just to make the forum informative and not B.S you need to look into an auto ecu OBD1 FED issued it can't be a cali. You would have to tune and remove the rev limiter yourself if it were to use a manual ecu.Easiest way to tune with the BIKI.....
Secondly who said I couldn't hit a 15.00 flat or below.... I don't have my SAFC or ecu tune implemented, and I didn't at my run last year. You do!! Maybe I'll back up my facts at the track.... Next month on the first wednesday. I'll replug the old SAFC just to show you I can break a 15.00 without swapping or moving cams and I'll run mine under -5%, and on 97octane..... Big deal if I don't hit your 14.9, I'll be down by .1 without adjusting my power band or increasing leaness. You also forgot one large thing tuning the SAFC, the closer you are to lean, and advancing the timing, the more the ignition timing becomes retarded, really you need to throw away the stock ecu tune (it's garbage), and program what is called closed loop disabled (removes any knock signal that prevents advancement of timing)........
The cam position deal is all bullshit. All you do is change the power band, you technically aren't really producing any more power than stock, and the engine runs lean, besides if you looked at where you supposedly set the exhaust cam @ 7.5 retarded it is open between the downward and upward stroke, technically losing a bit of power, you can read the FSM if you don't believe it.

[tre]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Well just to make the forum informative and not B.S you need to look into an auto ecu OBD1 FED issued it can't be a cali. You would have to tune and remove the rev limiter yourself if it were to use a manual ecu.Easiest way to tune with the BIKI.....
Secondly who said I couldn't hit a 15.00 flat or below.... I don't have my SAFC or ecu tune implemented, and I didn't at my run last year. You do!! Maybe I'll back up my facts at the track.... Next month on the first wednesday. I'll replug the old SAFC just to show you I can break a 15.00 without swapping or moving cams and I'll run mine under -5%, and on 97octane..... Big deal if I don't hit your 14.9, I'll be down by .1 without adjusting my power band or increasing leaness. You also forgot one large thing tuning the SAFC, the closer you are to lean, and advancing the timing, the more the ignition timing becomes retarded, really you need to throw away the stock ecu tune (it's garbage), and program what is called closed loop disabled (removes any knock signal that prevents advancement of timing)........
The cam position deal is all bullshit. All you do is change the power band, you technically aren't really producing any more power than stock, and the engine runs lean, besides if you looked at where you supposedly set the exhaust cam @ 7.5 retarded it is open between the downward and upward stroke, technically losing a bit of power, you can read the FSM if you don't believe it.

I was qouted by the guy to retard the exhaust cam one knotch further than intake. This is all compeltely experimental. The further we pushed the cams back the power band seemed to want to go higher int he rpms. Which i do agree with you MAY not yeild more hp. But the powerband seems to be quite a bit better than stock. Its currently at (feels like) 4200-6000.

[kompressorlogic]

BIKIrom, well i was gonna ask what it was exactly, just visited the site, looks pretty cool
the tuning program looks alot like the wolf 3d one from what i remember

looks like they use the MAF is there any provisions to switch to a MAP sensor if you want to delete the maf?

[tre]

Does bikirom at least come with a basemap?

[gotta240]

hey bigvinnie- your not the same bigvinnie from accordclub.com from like a year or two ago are you???

Another q- How does running a car lean, or with very advanced OR retarded timing lead to a rod knock? That doesn't make sence to me... Maybe burning a piston up, but how a rod knock....just curious.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by gotta240

hey bigvinnie- your not the same bigvinnie from accordclub.com from like a year or two ago are you???

NO I don't tune pussy Honda's. I've been dealing with datsun Nissan since I was 19, I am now 27years of age. I've owned a CRX, but that was years ago and I never joined a honda forum. Sounds like someone is stealing my name...

Originally Posted by tre

Does bikirom at least come with a basemap?

You can download the base map at the Bikiforums. The software is free with the daughter board, it's all under $300.

Originally Posted by tre

I was qouted by the guy to retard the exhaust cam one knotch further than intake. This is all compeltely experimental. The further we pushed the cams back the power band seemed to want to go higher int he rpms. Which i do agree with you MAY not yeild more hp. But the powerband seems to be quite a bit better than stock. Its currently at (feels like) 4200-6000.

Well for a fact we have had people test the HOT cam swap. 248INT onto the intake side at a 3tooth method not 4 tooth. Backing off the CAM at 3 teeth opens valve lift much to early. Also the Fact that the 248 is already slightly advanced (it does need a cam gear to moveslightly 1 to 2 degrees to make proper power). Nissan sets there intake and exhaust cams very close from the previous stroke, and they have been doing this for years since the Lseries engines. So actually retarding both cams you are pulling there lift of the valves on into the prior strokes which is bad. If you high rev to much you will bend a valve eventually, (basically valve lifts are caught between TDC on intake downward stroke on exhaust.)

Originally Posted by kompressorlogic

looks like they use the MAF is there any provisions to switch to a MAP sensor if you want to delete the maf?

No but you can adjust pulse width , and the MAF sensor, you can also tune with a wide band, it uses Nissan ECCS on board diagnostics so it is stuck in narrow band play. The developer of biki rom is ALWAYS upgrading the program with more features in a few years it will be the ultimate in nissan eccs tuning.

[tre]

I tend to notice you're thinking backwards quite a bit.

When you retard a cam, Valves open Later than stock, causing powerband to shift higher in RPM.

When you advancea cam, Valves open earlier than stock, cuasing powerband to shift lower in RPM.

Bikirom doesn't sound worth my money anymore. I'd rather move onto a MAP set up instead of a MAF.

Plus I have quite a few people who have tuned the STS system before. I belive its only 1500, Incluing wideband/datalogging system.

[tre]

How many times have you been to the drag strip anyways?

[junks13]

well this is all really interesting but i jus bought a dynotune nitrous kit last night so i might pick up alittle bit more than a few tenths but thanks for the help and has anyone on here ever runed sqeeze on a stock s14 if so how much and what kind of times at the track thanks

[junks13]

by the way i have a 248 ex cam turned ccw 4 teeth in my s14 whats the deal with three teeth

[miked808]

Awesome Power down low but after like 5500 RPMs it falls flat. I personally like it better than 4 Tooth method.