pick up a few more tenths in the ka

[ryan hagen]

i agree totally with the ecu/timing control, to make a base timing adjustment, you have to have your tps disconnected putting the ecu into failsafe mode. other wise while running the timing is being adjusted by the ecu and you dont see base timing with a timing light.

in my fsm, to retime the ka, it says disconnect tps, then watch the light and the marks and readjust it to the right mark. 20.

if the ecu sees knock, or see's any issue it will retard the ignition timing and dump extra fuel, effectively canceling out what you have done by the afc. the ka is obd1 and basically has a stay running at all costs to performance mode,. by dumping fuel knock will go away and by retarding timing knock will usally go away.

i have a hks super AFR and a hks EGC ignition controler. neither are hooke up yet because i was waiting till i got my NGK AFX wide band which comes tomorrow.

the only way to fully tune is to tune timing and air fuel at the same time, otherwise they will cancel each other out with the stock ecu.

[tre]

how much "registered" knock must it see to retard. I only heard my KA retard timing ONCE. and thats when i had 220kmiles and 87octane gas.

The most i've ever seen my SAFC-2 pick up for knock while under load is like 15. Except for the time the spark plug wire cam off at the track haha

[BigVinnie]

Since we are now to the issue of the stock ecu, it is now known that you can't really advance the timing, (it won't really do anything, leaving it stock at 20btdc is best, running anything higher than 22btdc I would use iridium spark plugs to prevent any knock detection of hot plugs, and what ever advancement in ignition that needs to be made will take place by the ecu ).
I will let everyone know right now....
I increased my 1/4 mile time a few tenth's by installing an aluminum fly wheel, 6 puck clutch sprung, and just adding 97 octane. The KA will read almost no knock on stock timing and 97 octane. This will only allow the ecu to actually advance it's ignition timing for optimal performance.
Installing an aluminum fly wheel freed up alot of the degredation loss, dropped engine LOAD, that is consumed from the drive train, actually putting more PEAK HP to the wheels, it also allows for the bottom end assembly to spin more freely to achieve better aspiration in higher RPM's.
6 puck clutch sprung no doubt in my mind increased my 1/4mile time, and my car now skirts in second gear almost every time.
Nice little upgrade is to use a auto ecu instead of a manual ecu. Slightly more aggresive than the manual, and also has the rev limiter disabled.

[tre]

dealership said they'd drop the aluminum one to 320 for me

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by tre

dealership said they'd drop the aluminum one to 320 for me

You can get fidanza aluminum flywheels for $250......

[tre]

do you mean 87 octane?

[tre]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

You can get fidanza aluminum flywheels for $250......

thast weird. amazing too. Cheapest i've seen it so far besides the dealership was around 420

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by tre

how much "registered" knock must it see to retard. I only heard my KA retard timing ONCE. and thats when i had 220kmiles and 87octane gas.

Put it like this every time you see a registered knock signal on your SAFC. The ecu will want to increase it's pulse width and retard timing in order to chill the cylinder charge. Cylinder temprature rises due to over compensation in o2 being compressed, (or in your case detonation caused from hot plugs) there for the knock sensor sends the signal to the ecu to retard timing and increase pulse width. Fuel is harder to compress and burn and therfore is used to cool cylinder temprature.
Your friend KOMPRESSOR stated that, "hey 11% is different from one car to another making your 11% different and probably not as lean as on another engine". No really it's not, it's a universal signal that is standard on any MAF controlled vehicle. It has more to do with timing and pulse width that determine the percentage on the SAFC. Thats why no matter what if you went +30 or -30 on the SAFC you would literally fry the ecu, because it would try to recalculate settings outside of it's TP.
Your best bet is to tune PROPERLLY which is what I have stressed since the beginning of this thread. Technically an SAFC is garbage for NA applications if you want to lean your mixture your best bet is too fool the ecu by tripping (SHIFTING) the TPS in either retard or advance (counter clock wise leans the air/fuel ratio). It does the same effect as the SAFC and in small percentages ( that I would advise staying under 2% and using a wide band o2), and I've done this when switching out to larger TB's, or adding bolt on's.
So your 11% is most likely just being counteracted with a +13% fuel richening and tip in retard(due to hot plugs and a lean mix), the ecu will continue to do this untill it maxes out to 30%, (if you were to continue increasing the - factor on the SAFC), then your pretty much up shit creek with rod knock that you couldn't ever tell without looking at a wide band...... I was stating earlier that in all this tuning you have been trying to perform you are really just DE-TUNING your engine, you can only fool the ecu in small increments, anything outside it's normal ignition timing the ecu will try to over compensate. (good example is your fully advanced distributor), maybe it will show better stoich results if you put it back to it's factory setting of 20BTDC.
Your best bet is to set the distributor at 20BTDC. Get a wide band o2 and tune from there. You will thank me in the long run, even though your probably pissed at me right now.
I really don't care though I'm just here to bring the info, and be a major ass hole.....

[ScorpioMk]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Your an idiot, and a good way to get yourself banned.

I was expecting more flaming than that, oh well. and if i was banned for that, id say you were sleeping with a mod, and it wouldnt be a big loss for me since i dont own a 240. i respect tho that you have turned from more flaming to just trying to get real info out. tre arent u on a mini ban for some stupid shit? tight mods on this site.

Marcus

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by ScorpioMk

I was expecting more flaming than that, oh well. and if i was banned for that, id say you were sleeping with a mod, and it wouldnt be a big loss for me since i dont own a 240.

Marcus

You are the biggest waste of bandwidth to this forum!!!!!
In general probably a waste to society as well, go back to the rock that you crawled from under....
I don't need a gang of my friends to come to this forum to back me up.
Take a look under my name to the left of your screen. Mine has green squares and yours is red and you only have 4 posts. I would say that my friends are backing me up without saying shit. I handle my own shit, and I don't need friends to back it up.......

[kompressorlogic]

QUOTE: Technically an SAFC is garbage for NA applications


aparently you dont understand electronics and signal manipulation or how the ecu entirly works...

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by kompressorlogic

QUOTE: Technically an SAFC is garbage for NA applications


aparently you dont understand electronics and signal manipulation or how the ecu entirly works...

Actually I do. You don't understand that the SAFC in no way shape or form changes the STOCK ignition timing of the ECU. Do you realize how much more power could be made by CHANGING the ignition MAPS along with the PULSE width?
So big deal if pulse width can be manipulated, so what if you can increase leaness. In no way does it manipulate ignition timing (that it moves outside of it's STOCK settings). Lieing to the ecu is just asking it to move somewhere else on it's stock MAPS. There for it would not advance it to increase much more power than it already makes, an ecu that is bound to it's MAPS, and it's ignition timing, along with a knock signal isn't really allowing an ecu to outperform it's stock duty cycle. Increasing leaness on a engine that performs to knock is the wrong way to try and make power. Knock signal is bound to the ignition MAPS, it is what is called consistency. SAFC doesn't change consistency, only variance. There fore is limited to it's range in making HP. Even on boosted applications it doesn't increase power, but corrects power that was surged by blow by (as defined by APEXI).
What do people do when they don't need FINE tuning of pulse width, and are now able to use retunable ROMS......They throw it away....

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Since we are now to the issue of the stock ecu, it is now known that you can't really advance the timing, (it won't really do anything, leaving it stock at 20btdc is best, running anything higher than 22btdc I would use iridium spark plugs to prevent any knock detection of hot plugs, and what ever advancement in ignition that needs to be made will take place by the ecu ).

Assume that you never see knock.

How does the ECU know that you've adjusted the base time from 20 to 30?

I've done the same thing as TRE did with the distributor, and I did it while on a dyno. Never heard knock and saw an increase hp everytime we bumped it up. Working from memory, I gained 12-14hp by adjusting the base timing, which now I'm being told wasn't possible? If so, what was I seeing?

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

Assume that you never see knock.

How does the ECU know that you've adjusted the base time from 20 to 30?

I've done the same thing as TRE did with the distributor, and I did it while on a dyno. Never heard knock and saw an increase hp everytime we bumped it up. Working from memory, I gained 12-14hp by adjusting the base timing, which now I'm being told wasn't possible? If so, what was I seeing?

Don't know what you were seeing. Could possibly be the octane rating that you were using. But if you use the stock ecu you will get knock or detonation.
This is also quite possibly that since base timing was advanced, that the power band was shifted a bit, which is typical. More than likely a drop in the torque curve and a raise in HP, really nothing to significant since HP is primarily a biproduct of toque, where torque is where REAL power is achieved.
I don't know what to believe from what ever you say is a full advancement, no matter what because the spark is discharged sooner than later in the cycle it becomes hot, the hotter plugs become the less usefull in producing the proper power output as I am showing in this diagram shown by champion spark plugs.

As you can see the further that base timing is advanced from it's stock ignition the hotter plugs become. More power output can be achieved up to 8 degrees, but it starts to become dangerous as the plugs become hotter. Every time that the plugs are advanced and become hotter it will register as knock on the sensor, actually sending ignition timing back on the MAP, this is simply what is called tip in retard. This will also drop the torque curve although you think you probably achieved a significant amount of HP.
Also note that this test was done by champion spark plugs on stock resistors, not platinum, or iridium which can accept hotter heat tolerances and stay cooler than your average plugs.

[jmauld]

Okay, you do what works in your mind. I'll do what was proven to me by a dyno to work.

[S14DB]

I would love to see your guys EGT's and then your pistons and exhaust valves in 10k miles.

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Don't know what you were seeing. Could possibly be the octane rating that you were using. But if you use the stock ecu you will get knock or detonation.

Obviously, the octane rating plays a part in it. We have 93 octane here so that is what I was using. No race gas or anything like that. The fact that I was running 93 octane gas doesn't change the fact that I changed the base timing and saw an improvement on a dyno.

As for the stock ecu comment, yeah I have a stock ecu, yet, I've been running this setup for over a year now with no knock/detonation.

This is also quite possibly that since base timing was advanced, that the power band was shifted a bit, which is typical. More than likely a drop in the torque curve and a raise in HP, really nothing to significant since HP is primarily a biproduct of toque, where torque is where REAL power is achieved.

Let me clarify that, the increase was an increase in both torque and HP. There was no significant movement of the power curve.

the hotter plugs become the less usefull in producing the proper power output as I am showing in this diagram shown by champion spark plugs.

There are ways around this...

As you can see the further that base timing is advanced from it's stock ignition the hotter plugs become. More power output can be achieved up to 8 degrees, but it starts to become dangerous as the plugs become hotter.

That chart is WAY too generic to treat as a bible.

Every time that the plugs are advanced and become hotter it will register as knock on the sensor, actually sending ignition timing back on the MAP, this is simply what is called tip in retard.

You have to remember, the only time the knock sensor will register knock is if you actually get knock.

This will also drop the torque curve although you think you probably achieved a significant amount of HP.

Again, this isn't buttometer results. I did this on a dyno. I wish I had a sheet to show you the individual runs performed back to back, but I only got a print-out of the best run for that day.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

Obviously, the octane rating plays a part in it. We have 93 octane here so that is what I was using. No race gas or anything like that. The fact that I was running 93 octane gas doesn't change the fact that I changed the base timing and saw an improvement on a dyno.

As for the stock ecu comment, yeah I have a stock ecu, yet, I've been running this setup for over a year now with no knock/detonation.


Let me clarify that, the increase was an increase in both torque and HP. There was no significant movement of the power curve.

There are ways around this...

That chart is WAY too generic to treat as a bible.

You have to remember, the only time the knock sensor will register knock is if you actually get knock.

Again, this isn't buttometer results. I did this on a dyno. I wish I had a sheet to show you the individual runs performed back to back, but I only got a print-out of the best run for that day.

HAHAHA. No charts, your a JACK ASS......You can quote me!!!!

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

As for the stock ecu comment, yeah I have a stock ecu, yet, I've been running this setup for over a year now with no knock/detonation.

UHHH not possible to run 0 knock responce, check this forum probably a little more informative..www.hybridka.com/eccs

Learn something and stop bugging me.......

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

That chart is WAY too generic to treat as a bible.

You obviously didn't learn anything I just told you. Bibles are based on BELIEF...This is merly FACT... Theres a BIG difference. Now don't go around telling youngsters it's O.K to blow up there motors now ya hear me....LOL

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

Obviously, the octane rating plays a part in it. We have 93 octane here so that is what I was using. No race gas or anything like that. The fact that I was running 93 octane gas doesn't change the fact that I changed the base timing and saw an improvement on a dyno.

Uhhh of coarse it does. Just to let you know, out here in CALI we use 91 octane that is under rated and mixed with 5% ethanol.... Thats the best way to cool hot cylinder temps and is infact probably better than your octane fuel that just uses less heptane..........
I still wouldn't be the next idiot to fully advance the distributor.....

[jmauld]

First off, name calling shows your level of maturity. If you can't have a discussion without name calling then you need to do us all a favor and remove yourself from the internet.

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Uhhh of coarse it does. Just to let you know, out here in CALI we use 91 octane that is under rated and mixed with 5% ethanol.... Thats the best way to cool hot cylinder temps and is infact probably better than your octane fuel that just uses less heptane..........
I still wouldn't be the next idiot to fully advance the distributor.....

I'm not telling you to fully advance your distributor.

I'll repeat this again and maybe you can learn something. Octane may have allowed me to make those changes, but it doesn't change the fact that I MADE A CHANGE AND GOT AN IMPROVEMENT. You can bring all your champion marketing bullshit in that you want, it doesn't change the facts. Even if I had the dyno's you wouldn't believe that the increases were coming from this so the fact that I don't have them is completely irrelevant.

You obviously didn't learn anything I just told you. Bibles are based on BELIEF...This is merly FACT...

That chart you posted is fact? I would hope that you are smart enough to realize that the chart you posted is ONLY fact for the particular engine and setup that they were doing the testing on. A simple change to a different plug would completely invalidate that chart.

Theres a BIG difference. Now don't go around telling youngsters it's O.K to blow up there motors now ya hear me....LOL

BTW, I haven't recommended anyone try this. In fact if you try this without being on a dyno and without having the proper tools, then you're just shooting in the dark, because you have no idea what the results are. You said it wasn't possible. I'm telling you it is. You are the one that refuses to believe there are ways to make this happen.

UHHH not possible to run 0 knock responce,

Yes I'm aware that the knock sensor is going to pick up noise and see it as knock. There's a certain threshold where the ECU will ignore it. They did this for a reason.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by jmauld

BTW, I haven't recommended anyone try this. In fact if you try this without being on a dyno and without having the proper tools, then you're just shooting in the dark, because you have no idea what the results are. You said it wasn't possible. I'm telling you it is. You are the one that refuses to believe there are ways to make this happen.

Your still wrong, wrong, and more wrong. You don't need to use the distributor at all in advancing the timing to compensate for power just as the chart described. If you were reading properlly you would of seen that I wrote that ignition timing advances it self using higher grade octanes......

Here is a perfect example how to PROPERLLY tune a KA24de engine.
This KA24de isn't advanced at it's distributor. Runs on an old JWT tune that is no longer used by JWT it's called the Juan Willy tune to my understanding, this dyno was done in 2001.
It was just ignition MAP advancement, 104 octane, header, aluminum pulley, and a CAT back exhaust. Scott the guy that ran this car didn't retard or advance cams or use any type of internal modifying. His best time in the 1/4mile is a 14.9. Same time as Tre's as a matter of fact. Using the closed loop disable on a Juan willy tune further advances ignition timing on crappier fuels, so I would say that I will be using this tune this year, until something better comes along.

Originally Posted by jmauld

That chart you posted is fact? I would hope that you are smart enough to realize that the chart you posted is ONLY fact for the particular engine and setup that they were doing the testing on. A simple change to a different plug would completely invalidate that chart.

Yes it is fact... Do you know where that chart is from???? It comes out of my datsun/nissan 720/D21 pickup manual.....
Do you know what engine that truck uses??????The z24I engine, which has the EXACT same bore and stroke of the KA, and runs on the same distributor system. It also uses DPI so of corse ignition MAPS are pretty similar.....
BTW FYI that spark plug chart is a reference for ALL engines that run distributo ignition systems. The only rule that spark plug chart doesn't apply to is DIS ignition systems, obviously for the fact that these systems shift ignition timing as well as base timing. You have alot of reading to do.
Advancing the distributor as I said earlier isn't safe, it raises hydro carbon levels so it's bad on the enviornment, it doesn't really MAKE POWER you've just changed the degree in the crank as to where you want the piston to make it's power, (so all it does is shift the power band, it doesn't make additional power since you haven't really modified anything ). If you gained HP you lost torque......

[tre]

IF that graph is correct about plug temp. I'm gonna go buy some colder plugs now ^_^

[tre]

OH btw. In a "100 Cheap hp gains" I think its called. In a magazine. THey tored down an sr swapped 240 with the cheapest things you could do for hp. And they did manually advance the distriubtor. And gained 3 hp. Forgot the magazine :P

[kompressorlogic]

vinnie you make all these posts saying that reducing duty cycle is dangerous and, advaning the distributer is dangerous...

so the real question well what do you do when your actually tuning??

the only way to make more hp wiht the same setup is a tune that is obiously not as rich as stock, and a more agressive timing curve( well thats the same as advancing isnt it!!?? so you are contradicting your self)

YES moving the dist is a crude way to do it, but its still changing the curve

so what kind of changes are you making when you "tune" cuase your basicly doing close to the same thing just with a more percise method....

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Your still wrong, wrong, and more wrong. You don't need to use the distributor at all in advancing the timing to compensate for power just as the chart described. If you were reading properlly you would of seen that I wrote that ignition timing advances it self using higher grade octanes......

Using that logic, then there is no reason to play with the timing maps inside the ECU. It will just keep increasing timing anyway. Here's a clue for you, there are limits to how much it will increase timing, and that limit isn't as far as you can get away with. Adjusting the distributor allows you to increase that limit

Here is a perfect example how to PROPERLLY tune a KA24de engine.
This KA24de isn't advanced at it's distributor. Runs on an old JWT tune that is no longer used by JWT it's called the Juan Willy tune to my understanding, this dyno was done in 2001.

Again, you bring pointless banter into the discussion. NO ONE has said that this is better then an ECU tune.

Using the closed loop disable on a Juan willy tune further advances ignition timing on crappier fuels, so I would say that I will be using this tune this year, until something better comes along.

So, you're saying it's not dangerous to increase timing inside the ECU, but it's dangerous to do the exact same thing with the distributor.

Here's another clue for you. If you advance timing with the Distributor and you do get knock, the ECU will pull back timing. You're not losing your protection.

it raises hydro carbon levels so it's bad on the enviornment,

again, with the useless argument. If you cared so much about the environment, you'd pick a better hobby.

it doesn't really MAKE POWER you've just changed the degree in the crank as to where you want the piston to make it's power, (so all it does is shift the power band, it doesn't make additional power since you haven't really modified anything ). If you gained HP you lost torque......

In that case, changing the timing map inside the ECU would not make power either?

I guess you have reached the point in this hobby where you have nothing to learn, because you obviously have no interest in listening to what others have to say. I have no reason to lie to you about this, but you can believe that I'm lieing all that you want.

BTW, I have the raw data from my runs. If you have a program that can read the data from a dynojet, I'll send them to you so that you can see I have lost no torque, yet have made more then 30hp (combined mods) over my initial run with a completely stock car.

I'm done with this conversation, since obviously no one knows more then vinnie.

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by tre

IF that graph is correct about plug temp. I'm gonna go buy some colder plugs now ^_^

I don't think it's a bad idea to use colder plugs. I switched the last time I did a tune-up.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by kompressorlogic

the only way to make more hp wiht the same setup is a tune that is obiously not as rich as stock, and a more agressive timing curve( well thats the same as advancing isnt it!!?? so you are contradicting your self)

YES moving the dist is a crude way to do it, but its still changing the curve

You seriously need to read some books on ignition timing. Base timing at the distributor is completely different than the ignition timing that comes from the ecu. Base timing heats plugs, ignition timing changes the engines functions and works in conjunction with the fuel map, this will keep plug tempratures cool. In this day and age with the technology that is offered it is stupid to tune in such a crude manner to advance the distributor to think it actually makes power. You don't make additional power, you just move power somewhere else. Especially since the fuel map hasn't changed to the timing of the distributor. All I say is truth, so maybe you need to start reading books or go to wyotech.......

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

Jmauld you are retarded and your post has no evidence or validity. All I show is truth and you have proven nothing......

Thanks for showing your true colors. I offered you proof, and you again go back to name calling. Thanks for the vulgar words in the bad reputation you gave me!